Edu has certainly made a strong case for getting more playing. Many people feel that Gilberto is an invaluable component. So who should be the odd man out? I say Patrick Vieira.
A week or so back I suggested selling Henry to Real Madrid and everyone jumped on me. Yet since then Arsenal have continued to win even though Henry hasn’t scored in the last several games. So I was right about that one.
I think Edu and Gilberto would be a great partnership in the middle, and let’s face it, Vieira is a bit over-rated. He only looks good because he plays in England, a country with one decent player who can play in the middle of the field - Steven Gerrard. Players like Vieira are a dime a dozen in Europe. Vieira is Mark van Bommel with goop on his shirt. He’s Gennaro Gattuso with a shaved head.
Ok, jokes over. Obviously I wouldn’t get rid of Vieira (or Henry for that matter). But this does raise an interesting question of how to fit these talented players into the sqaud. So, in all seriousness, here’s a thought:
Henry
Pires and Ljungberg wide and shifted forward a bit
Edu and Vieira in midfield
Gilberto in a sweeper role
Back four of Cole(Clichy), Sol, Kolo, Ralph Lauren
Lehman
Henry has room to roam and can dish off to Freddie or whoever else comes charging forward. Edu and Vieira are both in position to make passes, boss the midfield or push forward. Gilberto is there to protect the back four. You could bring in DB10 in the second half to crack open a tired defense or use Reyes to replace Pires.
Too many talented players. A good problem to have, huh?
33 Responses to “Gilberto or Edu - How about both?”
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February 25th, 2004 at 7:46 am
Rick, enough of these devil’s advocate games you like to play.
The line up you include is fairly interesting that would be a worthwhile experiment after we clinch the league.
February 25th, 2004 at 7:51 am
Rick, I was about to get my comment in without reading the whole article. Thought you may have death wish or maybe your matchday attire was a gimp mask, rubber shorts and whip!
However, it might work. The last time I remember us adopting a sweeper system was in the latter stages of the 1989 season.
I’m not sure about pushing Bobby and Freddie forward a bit more. Last night poor Cluchy was doing everything because Bobby reverted to his old game of not tracking back to help out and Sol had to keep moving over.
Maybe we could experiment with it in a meaningless match, against Sp**s maybe?
February 25th, 2004 at 7:58 am
Not bad. Although I can’t see Wenger doing it. If our midfielders were slower- then it’s a valid move. But as they’re not - I can’t see Le Boss going with it.
It’s not dissimilar to the way we play at the moment - I’d say that Gilberto is already in that covering position. As for Freddie and Bob - they go anywhere they want to go behind the front line already.
‘If it ain’t broke - don’t try and fix it!’
February 25th, 2004 at 8:13 am
Nohing wrong with how it is now, Edu gets stuck in just as much as Gilberto, but is much more of an attacking threat. I don’t think there is any more to it than that. Edu should replace Gilberto, period.
However, if Lungberg is out of form or injured you could play, from left to right, Edu, Vieira, Gilberto, Pires. Pires on the right would certainly gives us more width and he would cut inside anyway like he always does. This formation would be far better than accomodating Parlour, who is practically useless most of the time.
February 25th, 2004 at 8:46 am
I would like to stress that the beauty of arsenal’s play is based on a partnership of 2 central midfielders while the other 4 attacking players are free to roam around the pitch creating and scoring goals.
On paper, the 4-4-2 formation looks as if it doesn’t suits arsenal players (as Henry likes to go wide, freddie cutting inside etc), but on the pitch, the formation does create beautiful football because of the great undertanding between the players, but mainly because of the basic 2 central midfielders holding our play.
Winning a few games without Henry doesn’t mean that we don’t need him. If i’m not mistaken, Henry scored 24 goals and made 20 assists in the premiership last season. That means he was involve in 44 goals out of the 80+goals we scored. That shows how important he is!
Patrick Viera is the main core of Arsenal and the best central midfiielder in the world. To say that he is over-rated is a DISGRACE…
February 25th, 2004 at 8:49 am
Taking the point seriously about accomodating edu and gs (but not the point that Viera should make way!), maybe the opposition’s formation should be the deciding factor as to who plays.
Clearly edu has better close ball skills than gilberto, and seems to handle niggly pressure situations with a greater variety of skills and therefore tactical options. So, against teams that crowd the middle of the pitch I suggest that edu should get the nod.
While teams that play a 4-4-2 or otherwise do not block up the central areas with bodies, should face Gilberto.
The two of them do not seem so egotistical that this would cause them to moan and upset the spirit in the team; gs looks as though he would welcome the break every now and then.
I do not think this would be too much tinkering, either, a la Ranieri. It seems straightforward enough.
But Wenger is very bullish about forcing the other teams to react to his tactics, and not the other way around, so he is unlikely to do what I am suggesting. He also tends to wait for suspensions, injuries, or other outside factors (even players’ decisions to leave the club, such as Anelka, Overmars, Petite, Upson, and perhaps Wiltord) to force changes in team selection. I have always thought this was to encourage personal loyalty to him (even a siege, us-versus-them mentality by not over-emphasizing the divide between players and management). It is telling that former players almost never have a bad word to say about Wenger.
But tactics are more complicated than numbers of bodies in the middle of the park, so it will be interesting to hear what others think about the relative merits of the two players.
February 25th, 2004 at 9:16 am
You were right about selling henry because he hasn’t scored in the last few matches????? Rick how many has he made in the last few games!! Where would we be without his contribution this season?
And as for selling Vieira WHY? Why would we:
a)sell our captain
b)weaken the squad when theres no need to
c)get rid of the leader on the pitch
and d)sell a world class defensive midfielder?
Granted Edu has hit a rich vein of form lately and has always put in 100% and richly deserves the credit he’s having. But any fan with an ounce of cop on would know that players pushing for places only serves to bring the whole squad up another notch eg-Clichy/Cole, Bentley/Reyes/DB10, Stack/Lehmann………
And as for your lineup it works well up to midfield but our style of play does not suit packing three into the middle. Considering Vieira is a DEFENSIVE midfielder and Edu is more attacking u’d be left with a vertical line in centre midfield
Edu
Vieira
Gilberto
Heres a thought Rick:
Seven Points Clear
Unbeaten in the League
Going for European glory
Going for FA Cup
Leave it be(why fix something that ain’t broken!)
February 25th, 2004 at 9:23 am
Rick, please keep your comments to yourself.
I understand you are doing this from a business perspective, to drive up the number of hits, but the fact is you are making us yanks look ignorant to our brothers across the big pond.
You are fast turning Arsenal-America into a joke in the eyes of everyone. Please stop and think before writing and posting.
February 25th, 2004 at 9:24 am
Rick, please keep your comments to yourself.
I understand you are doing this from a business perspective, to drive up the number of hits, but the fact is you are making us yanks look ignorant to our brothers across the big pond.
You are fast turning Arsenal-America into a joke in the eyes of everyone. Please stop and think before writing and posting.
February 25th, 2004 at 9:37 am
You are disgracing US Gooners with comments like that. They are completely unreasonable and unfounded. Yes, I too advocate the sale of Vieira and Henry as we have the league and cup sown up. Does loyalty mean anything to you?
Absolute rubbish.
February 25th, 2004 at 9:49 am
at this moment in time edu has come into some great form,If his second goal last night was scored by one of the better known brazilian who are playing in europe it would have been goal of the season,the expert into itv studio said it was the best goal secored in the champions league this season.
On henry’s goal scoring, out of the last 53 goals arsenal have scored henry has scored just 14,but how many assists ?.the third goal from last night was some of the best inter play between two player i have seen for a long time.
February 25th, 2004 at 10:28 am
Obviously it is always an option to play them together - Are you saying sell Paddy - you are a freak and should’nt be allowed out.
Now stop trying to be controversial.
February 25th, 2004 at 11:28 am
Did you read the entire article? I find it easier to have a conversation when all the participants are talking about the same topic. ” (T)he jokes over.”
February 25th, 2004 at 11:29 am
I think I desagree with most when I say I don’t think your line-up will work at all - at least not over the course of a season.
The reason? It’s way too defensive…
AW has based his style of play around a strong central defensive pair and 2 strong midfielders, one of them very strong defensively.
I agree that Edu’s recent performances deserve a 1st team run ahead of Gilberto, but Edu is only effective when in the center. We do need Freddie and Pires on the wings, and to a lesser extent Wiltord when he was playing well… Henry needs freedom up front, which is only given to him by support by another striker…he is very rarely effective when up front on his own.
Last point — stop with the “hit generating” headlines and comments. They don’t do you any justice…otherwise, great site from a Gooner in London.
February 25th, 2004 at 11:32 am
Alot of times when I see the Arsenal lineup for a matchday, I’m usually left muttering about whomever Wenger decided to bench for that day, thinking with dread that that player ought to be on the field and that his omission will certainly cost us the match. But then I think, Who the hell am I to question Wenger so much? Isn’t that a wee bit stupid, considering 1- I’ve never managed a Premier League side with Premier League-caliber players, and 2- I think Wenger’s track record speaks for itself. Some speculation as to who should and should not be played is fair enough, and does make for some fun discussions, but it really is better left for games like FIFA and the various manager games. At the end of the day, why are some of us questioning Wenger so stringently? Wenger has created a squad with some real depth to it, a must-have for any club with aspirations for numerous title runs in one season.
Finally, in Rick’s defence, he did say “Ok, jokes over.” He was clearly just saying those things again to wind people up. That being said though, I do agree that this particular kind of controversy just makes Arsenal America look like a bunch of wallies. My particular beef is the anti-Parlour comments. Parlour has been Arsenal through and through for 15 years now. He might not be as skillful as some of the other lads, but he runs his bollocks off for the Arsenal every match he’s in. Why do you think he’s the captain in Vieira’s absence? To say “let’s sell Vieira and Henry” is great for controversy, but to sell, “let’s sell Parlour,” is the greatest insult of them all. But hey, Rick runs the site, what can ya do?
February 25th, 2004 at 11:38 am
rick are you crazy????? or maybe a tottenham fan in disguise.
I am a season ticket holder at arsenal and wathching the boys live week in week out I have to say that apart from maybe roy keane(when he plays) there is no one that can touch him, he dominated parker and lampard by himself last week and does this all the time you only see players like hime once or twice a genaration, we will be talking about him for years to come. so dont say things like that even in jest ok? thanks
I would like to add that I think edu is a much better player than gilberto and most of us on the north bank think the same thing
Phydos
London
February 25th, 2004 at 11:53 am
Rick it looks like you sure have gotten plenty of people to read this and comment on it. I remember when 100 reads was allot.
Personally I don’t think your crazy, but moving Vieira out dosn’t make sense to me. He’s a strong misfielder with a few more good years left in him. He ends up injured so much that Both Edu and Gilberto could take that time in the middle with little impact on how the team plays. Gilberto on the defensive side and Edu on the Offensive would make a great combo.
Selling Henry would be a big mistake. I don’t think that it would be a good career move for him. There’s too many up front players and he would become a part time player sharing roles with the rest of the superstars. He shines at Highbury and will only make himself a better player by staying. He is awesome and I’d had to see him leave.
When Vieira goes ut on his next injury spurt, the Edu - Gilberto combo would make a fantasic central misfield.
February 25th, 2004 at 11:53 am
Everyone needs to calm down. It’s obvious that Rick was taking the piss, why can’t everyone else see that?
As for the formation, I usually am full of opinions, but this time I’ll just use the Dan Winkler mantra, “Arsene knows.”
February 25th, 2004 at 12:15 pm
In Ricks defense he was only joking and went onto say obviously he wouldn’t get rid of Paddy or Henry and he included both in his suggested lineup. I think people are not reading all the posting.
Anyway whats with all the arguing and complaining today. Lets just be grateful we have so many good players that Arsene can’t include them all and lets all just enjoys last nights result for a few days.
February 25th, 2004 at 12:24 pm
Damn,
I know Rick is doing a good job getting new readers and fans and nothing to do with Edu or Gilberto.
But please did you just became a Gunner or happy to see a good team of late. Parlour might not be the best player but before you call him useless look at yourself first and asked what he had done for the club.
So-called fans with short memory.
February 25th, 2004 at 12:30 pm
I’ll just ignore the first three paragraphs of garbage.
I would play two in center mid, and which two of Edu, Gilberto, or PV depends on form, injuries, fatigue, etc. All things being equal, PV would be one of them because of his effect on the rest of the team. But he is not indispensible, Arsenal have gotten by without him for long stretches. (One could argue that last seasons debacle was a long term effect of PV missing so much of the season though…)
I think Gilberto is tired. I think people remember last year during the run-in his form was poor and a low opinion of him persists, but people forget he played a lot of games and didn’t really get a summer break (summer 02). How many games has he missed this year?
I don’t have any problem with Edu starting, he has done just fine when he has come in. He’s in good form, and relatvely well rested, so for now I would start him over Gilberto.
February 25th, 2004 at 12:39 pm
People, people, people….CALM DOWN! For those of you that got the joke: congratulations! For those who didn’t: Rick wasn’t serious!
Reading one of Rick’s articles is like signing a contract: you need to read the WHOLE THING before signing/responding.
You’ve got some good ideas there, Rick, but I hesitate to play only one striker, especially since DB10 is in such great form right now. The other problem is that there’s really no one to “set the table” for Henry, Pires, et al, in your formation.
Good read as usual, though.
February 25th, 2004 at 12:50 pm
The pissy-faced replies to Rick’s posts are absolutely laughable. The site is more interesting when it is provocative, and I enjoy learning from the posters who disagree and have a great deal of knowledge on the game. It makes me more informed, and therefore, a better fan.
If I got worked up over a post, I would either move on or say my piece. Simple as that. Merely suggesting, let alone demanding, that Rick stop pushing buttons (gently, in fact) simply because one hasn’t a sense of humor casts far more a disparaging light on oneself, doesn’t it? Silly.
And frankly I could give a hairy rat’s a** if to a few it makes “Yank” supporters look a bit shaky. We’re supporters nonetheless, despite the disadvantage of having a mediocre history of a beautful game. I love the Gunners, will until I die. I also love to learn about the game. If I want a hugfest, I’ll join singles.com.
C’mon.
February 25th, 2004 at 4:19 pm
This is why Arsene Wenger is the manager and not Rick!
February 25th, 2004 at 5:59 pm
Honest to god, you people critizing the articles here kill me. Its an editorial meant for discussion. Everyone has a complaint, no one an original idea. Some people are blinded by their own loyalty.
I think he missed the point (badly) as PV4 is our best player IMO. but really everyone wants edu in the first 11 but no one wants anyone to come of. Some of these posters’ ideal formation is a follows
TH14- DB10- Reyes
Pires-edu-vieira-gilberto-Freddie
clincy-sol-kolo-lauren-cole
Lehmann
See a problem with this formation? (hint count)
February 25th, 2004 at 6:16 pm
I like your suggestion Rick, it’s definetely something that all serious Arsenal observers will already have considered. The basic point, is that we have three excellent, slightly different, central midfield players, Vieira, Edu and Gilbero. Edu gives us a better level of passing, he passes forwards, he is the positive member of the three. Gilberto is very much a defensive midfielder, that is what he excels at. And for those slagging him off throughout forums such as this, surely the Vigo performance was a case in point, in terms of what he contributes to the team. We haven’t looked that vulnerable for a good while. And Vieira is a mix between the two.
I think the real answer is we need a different team for different occasions, and on european away nights, all three gives us an excellent base to work from. Gilberto protecting that defense.
As for everyone being in uproar about even joking about the sale of Vieira, this is naive. If you examine some of our best performances over the last few seasons, several have been with Vieira missing. If we were to lose one of Henry, Vieira, Campbell or Pires for example, Vieira should be the choice. We have the players to replace Vieira, not the others. Vieira is not as influential as he was at the beginning of his Arsenal career. He plays too many easy balls, sideways, sideways, sideways, doesn’t make enough of those surging runs. When we’ve needed to be creative in the past, especially in tricky european ties, where the opposition have got behind the ball, he has certainly been a major factor in us looking at times desperate.
We play an excellent standard of football with Edu in the team, not usually to the same level without him, and far from this being a recent occurance, this has been the case for several seasons. More movement and quick passing, throughout the team, he links the midfield and forwards together.
Don’t get me wrong, I love Vieira, he is the best midfield tackler in the world, at times his domination of the opposite can be breath taking, but without him, we’d simply be a team playing a more fluid style of football, and I believe that’s the way football is going at the moment.
It should also be noted that Vieira has suicidal tendancies, too often this season he’s been diving in. Where’s Gilberto stands up, uses his strength, Vieira dives in continuously, the majority of the time, he wins the ball, but too often not, too many bookings, and will we end up getting punished for this at some point this season?
For those of you who are saying, it ain’t broke, don’t fix it. That’s too simplistic a few. Who says it’s not broke, hey, we’re doing great, but we mustn’t get carried away with all the media headlines, true Arsenal fans will know that not all of the performances this season have been fabulous. We’re not on tremendous form right now either, despite the results. It’s dribs and drabs. We’re doing enough to keep it going, and it’s been tough with the limited options up front due to recent injuries.
Another major topic of discussion right now should be whether Cygan needs to come back. Toure is a sensation, but, I think we’re missing Cygan alongside Campbell. Cygan reads the game brilliantly, and that’s something that Campbell and Toure don’t excel at, they have tremendous physical attributes, but are not brilliant defenders. Cygan can be a nightmare in terms of pace, but with Toure and Campbell alongside him, I think they can compensate for that. We’ve missed Toure’s pace down the right also. Our best defensive performance was away to Inter.
February 25th, 2004 at 8:32 pm
Your suggestion is really interesting. But it will be a much better article without the stupid joke.
February 25th, 2004 at 8:35 pm
About the vieira quote, he did say he was joking. But as I said in another post, it is a stupid joke because people might not be patient enough to read the whole article after reading that, thus not knowing that he is joking
February 26th, 2004 at 3:14 am
Way too narrow. Who’s going to protect the wings? Gilberto can’t be everywhere. I don’t think Edu and Gilberto can play together while Vieira, Pires and Ljungberg are all fit.
February 26th, 2004 at 4:54 am
Parlour useless??? You obviously dont fully appreciate what he does??? He gets about more than any other player and battles hard. Wins most 50/50 balls and wins a lot of 40/60 balls aswell due to his determination.
Pires on the right?? Dont like the idea. Arsenal are much better attacking down the left. Have been for years. He links up very well with Henry on that side. His goal vs Vigo is a prime example. Being naturally right footed, his cutting in from the right flank would be less effective. Why change it??? Think the formation we used in latter part of second half vs Chelsea in the cup is the best solution if Freddie is out. Pires, Edu, Vieira, Gilberto.
February 26th, 2004 at 5:18 am
Vieira is great at slide rule passes. Always has been. Hes also excellent at making time and space for himself in the centre. The little flick over opposition players heads is a great trick which he is a master at. You say Vieira plays too many sideways passes. What about Gilberto??? He only ever passes sideways. I am not faulting him for this as using short sideways passes keeps possession, but i think you will find that Vieira plays a lot more penatrative forward passes than you give him credit for. I like both Vieira and Gilberto. Hate hearing Gilberto completely slated. Think it is very narrow minded. He does have his qualities. He does for us what Deschamp did for France. He is in a very much unsung role. Closes down the opposition, makes it hard them to pass by narrowing angles, gets in lots of toe ender tackles to end their possession. He is a useful player. I personally though would prefer to see Edu in the team instead. I dont think you can say on the basis of one game where Gilberto is missing that we are obviously not as good defensively. Both of their goals were set pieces that should have been dealt with and on another day would have been dealt with. Vieira was probably at fault for the first, but who’s to say that they wouldnt have happened with Gilberto in the team???
I do quite like your idea about Toure on the right and bringing back Cygan into the centre. However, Cygan seems quite uncomfortable in the Prem but seems to cope well in Europe. Played well at the San Siro and the Stadio Olimpico. Toure looked as useful going forward down the right as he did defending it, so that is a good option to have. Problem is, Kolo himself wouldnt be fully happy if he were playing there week in week out as he sees himself as a central defender and has said this many a time in interviews. Will be interesting to see what Wenger does for the second leg. Cygan can cope a lot better in the air than Lauren, so he maybe brought in. A lot of balls were being planted into the right back position in the second half on tuesday night, and Ralph had a torrid time of it with them. Milosevic will score eventually if we dont deal with it.
I think we should win however and hopefully we’ll get Chelski in the next round!!!
February 26th, 2004 at 5:23 am
Surely you mean Gilberto in an anchor role and not a sweeper role???
Also, you give a formation for consideration, but at the moment it is effectively how we play anyway. Our formation may be 4-4-2 but it isnt standard. We dont actually play with anyone ‘up front’ in the pure meaning. Henry as we know roams the width of the pitch and a lot of his play comes from the left wing position. Bergkamp plays a little deeper. Pires and Ljungberg are more central when in the attacking 3rd of the pitch and it is a lot of the time the full backs who actually go up the wings.
Our formation is basically Wenger’s version of ‘total football’.
February 26th, 2004 at 10:56 am
Hi all, have only just registered….but its a very interesting point Rick has made…altho i disagree with him about Vieira being overrated…I would love to see Edu get a good run out with the side altho I think it is vitally important to have Gilberto in the side….ok he is not as graceful as Edu on the ball and loses it a bit more than he does….he does however offer a lot of off the ball and is a brilliant in the air which makes us stronger defending set pieces…the game against Celta is a perfect example…Gilberto not playing and we concede 2 goals from set pieces
…..another argument for Edu and gilberto playing together would be that in my opinion both Vieira and Edu are very similar….which might not be a good thing…Gilberto and Vieira are good together cos they both have something different to offer….Edu and Gilberto would work…but then again…how do you drop our inspirational leader?…tough one….i would keep it as it is and change if neccesary for giving players breaks and when they have picked up injury…i still feel Gilberto and Vieira are the best pick…altho we are luck to be blessed with 3 (touch wood) accomplished and class central midfielders