Liverpool 2-Arsenal 1
It just ended, meaning we haven’t won a game since October. This lineup needs a shakeup, not a massive one, but something. If it’s not working, you HAVE to make some changes. The up front pairing is not working, Henry is hurt and Reyes has disappeared. We should rest Henry until he’s 100% percent healthy. We have Pennant, Van Persie and young guys who can hold their own. They’ve shown it against Premier League teams in the Carling.
Am I insane in thinking that maybe we should play some of the reserves, judging only by the results in the CC?? Maybe I am, but this is starting to get out of hand, we need to start turning it around before the Chelsea and Rosenborg games in December. This lineup right now has been the same for a while, and right now it’s not cutting it. Do we hope that it’ll work itself out and Arsenal will be free-flowing again, or do we rest some players and bring in some faces that have not dealt with the nine-man effort in midweek against PSV and are rested from not getting as much playing time?
28 Responses to “If it’s not working, change it”
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November 28th, 2004 at 2:00 pm
What a load of rubbish. I can’t believe my eyes. We were outplayed by a team with million and one injures and no excuses can explain how bad Arsenal were in the first half. PV can’t even put a pass or two together and don’t know why Reyes was on the field.
Then Wenger comes out with another excuse that the guys werev tired. Pls Mr. this is a team game and can’t play the same guys each week and don’t expect them to be tired.
Now PV is suspensed for the Chelsea and Rosenbory game. The worse form in 4 yrs.
November 28th, 2004 at 2:05 pm
Agree, November slip ups notwithstanding, there is something going on here.
Pool put five men in the midfield and held up a strong back four. Even a blind squirrel eventually finds an acorn and, brilliance in spotty display, we managed an equalizer. But with 3 shots in total, the first coming well into the second half, and only 2 on goal, I’m afraid that there are more concerns here than who is on the pitch. I think we’ve got to find another way to get to the box.
How we do that, is Arsene’s guess. Our current first XI are a fantastic blend of one style. Few have found individual strength in other systems, internationals, et al. Would a new crop of players be able to think and see another route to scoring?
Arsene knows. Nothing left to do but support, support, support. My gut says we’re in for a MAJOR change in how we approach the game. We’re going to have to tough it through.
Still in 2nd place and not out of anything. But it just may require a shocking new lineup to save our chances of going back to back.
November 28th, 2004 at 2:09 pm
Totaly agree. 6 points from 6 games??? we continue like this and we can kiss the championship goodbye.
But i do think this particular defeat is going to inspire us.. not sure wenger will make the changes though exept maybe starting van persie
November 28th, 2004 at 2:10 pm
I’d have to agree that a shake-up or change is in order… Reyes is non-existant… he has truly disappeared on the pitch… and I thought VanPersie did a decent job in his 25 mins… alot more lively than Reyes.
Henry looked decent to me… he might not be 100%, but he is still quite capable.
Liverpool were all over the ball… closing us down at every spot… and not allowing free flowing football… so our goal was a good one… with tight little passes and a good finish by Vieira.
Cesc… didn’t do much. Pires didn’t do much. Freddie didn’t do much.
I thought our 2nd half was alot better than the first half… and we deserved a draw. GUT WRENCHING last second winner…. that hurt … alot. But overall, I’d have to say Liverpool were quite a capable opponent… they deserved what they got… on sheer effort and hustle.
We didn’t let a goal in on a set-piece! But we didn’t really create much the entire game….
This is not the same team… at least not right now. We are lacking something. Is is Gilberto? He might help at the back, but that can’t be it in total. Not sure… tough to watch a Champion falter the way we have of late.
QUESTION that popped into my head.
Gerrard. If we could by him, and slot him next to Vieira… would you? for how much? and …. what of Cesc? He would not get much playing time for a few years to come.
I’d do it. It spend $20 million if I had to… and Cesc could play reserves and sub on for a year or two.
Not sure what to change… but something has to change quickly. I don’t back wholesale changes and putting out 4 or 5 new players. But perhaps 2 or 3 in the right spot.
November 28th, 2004 at 2:12 pm
Vieira played a good 2nd half, in my opinion. AGREE that if the players are tired… its Wenger’s fault for playing the same 11. Should have tried VanPersie, Flamini and Hoyte.
If you are correct and Vieira is out of the Chelsea match, we are f***ed. Flamini and Cesc v. Chelsea would be UGLY.
November 28th, 2004 at 2:18 pm
Yes the next game is not within 7 days so he is ok to play against B’ham but not Chelsea. Maybe that is why he went down to get a red card then maybe will missed the CC which he won’t have play anyway.
November 28th, 2004 at 2:21 pm
Good point,
Wenger wants Gerrard and instead of saying it playing them stupid mind games that Chelsea will sign him. I don’t get that comment he made yesterday.
November 28th, 2004 at 2:33 pm
It’s partly the formation - not ours but our opponents’. Premiership sides, unlike most teams in Europe, used almost always to play 4-4-2, which suited us beautifully. Now (as I tried to argue last week) even the tiddler teams have begun to flood the midfield and stop us playing our traditional fast-flowing game. Clever Benitez - he organised exactly the adaptable formation that gave him maximum defensive and attacking possibilities with very few high-quality players.
What’s needed? Something radical and structural unfortunately. Just tinkering - e.g. by resting Henry or Reyes for a while and then returning to the status quo - won’t be enough. We need first of all - obviously - to ensure we’re defensively solid. Not much hope until Gilberto returns, I’m afraid. We may also need to think about scoring different kinds of goals - using width, having a strong Horse-type player in the box. (I’d prefer Lupoli to van P, from what I’ve seen in this role.)
The other explanation and necessary change? That wretched blue kit. I knew we were doomed when I saw it.
November 28th, 2004 at 2:44 pm
It may have been gut wrenching to let in an injury time goal but the strike from that Gerrard-lookalike Mellor was a very good one. For a good shot-stopper, Lehmann was surprising caught out by the long range effort.
Did Arsenal deserved a tie? Not based on the first half performance. Not a single shot at goal, having only about 35% of the possession and losing almost every 50-50 ball. No doubt the half time talk by Wenger did some good as Arsenal started to find openings in Pool’s defence.
The first goal was clearly a case of the midfielders not falling back fast enough to shadow Alonso. I would pin that on Viera who was jogging back while Alonso sped up to receive the pass from Gerrard who had 3 Arsenal players following him. Viera is now going to miss the Chelsea game and we do not have any real experience in the middle of the park to compete against Lampard and co.
Someone should tell Reyes to change his boots because he seems to slip all the time despite his low CG. I really do not understand why Wenger chose to start him over van Persie when he is clearly not comfortable playing alongside Henry and is presently in a slump. I thought Campbell and Toure played very well handling the first half onslaught. Lauren was having such a tough time against a mediocre Kewell who was on the receiving end of a number of good cross field passes - a Pool tactic which worked to quite good effect.
We maybe 5 points behind Chel$ki but EPL race is by no means over yet. Let see how the youth brigade fare against Manure this Wednesday in the Carling cup. They might spring a nice surprise and bring a smile back to all Gunner fans.
November 28th, 2004 at 3:00 pm
The chelsea game? Nightmare. Consider their probable formation: wingers Duff/Robben, with a striker, Drogba probably, sitting just in front. Exactly what we find difficult. The weakness of our midfield, exacerbated by Paddy’s suspension, is totally disasterous. I didn’t except us to beat them even when our circumstances were considerably brighter - Mourinho is very clever tactically - but now . . . I predict 4-0, at best - a goal from Robben or Duff, 1 from Lampard or Tiago, 1 from Drogba, 1 or more from a set piece (Terry header). Birmingham should be OK, though.
November 28th, 2004 at 3:07 pm
I would prefer to rest players who are not playing upto scratch rather than changing the Gunner’s approach to the game. Starting a few fresh players like Flamini, van Persie, Hoyte or Pennant can inject more energy into the team. The game against Pool was a clear example of how much more the Pool players wanted to win every ball and how well they followed the tactics employed by Benitez. Also Wenger will need to find a solution to counter against teams that play 5 across midfield because having just Viera and Fabregas in the middle will handicap us. Unlike Bergkamp, Reyes did not drop back much to support the midfielderswhen he partnered Henry upfront.
Between Lupoli and van Persie, I would say that vP is much stronger in the air to take advantage of crosses when the typical Arsenal attacking routes are not working.
November 28th, 2004 at 3:09 pm
Have you lost it?
You are predicting a 4-0 loss to Chelsea?
I will bet you ANYTHING you wish. How about we wager an Arsenal shirt?
If we don’t have Vieira in midfield, we will play a completely different style of play against Chelsea… we might have Kolo in midfield… and have 5 across the middle of the park… with a lone striker…
You don’t expect us to just stand there and let Chelsea score 4? do you?
November 28th, 2004 at 3:18 pm
I have to agree with Stag133 on this one. Without Viera, Wenger will need to vary his team formation to counter the threat posed by Lampard and co. Definitely not 4-0! Don’t forget that we are playing at home as well. Drogba maybe very strong in the air and physical but I am confident Campbell and Toure can handle him. As for Robben and Duff out in the wings, Cole will be OK but I think Lauren’s pace maybe exposed. Flamini and Fabergas will need a lot more support in the middle of the park from the strikers and wide players to stand a chance.
November 28th, 2004 at 3:28 pm
Stag so you finally see what I’ve been saying for ages? The only reason why these players are being selected is for their names. Neither their form, nor their fitness justifies selection. Look at Liverpool, how the stand-ins played with passion. These players just don’t have it in them at present. You can’t give what you haven’t. Now they’re all basically slumping at the same time. Who’s supposed to take their place when they weren’t given a chance to be a cog in the machine during the good times? Reason why I admire Sir Alex how he’ll give a player a game here a game there, so when there are injuries they’re not just suddenly thrust into the battle unprepared. Personally I think the worst is yet to come. We’ve been slumming it with the likes of West Brom. Now the big ones come at the worse possible time. Bring on Chelsea???
November 28th, 2004 at 3:30 pm
Whatever I say will piss someone off so I’m going back to bed. With the new Arsenal you can’t criticizm the team but always mouthing off other players.
Yes Arsenal are above any criticism so just cut and run. We are soo fcuking special that the manager don’t see anything wrong with his players and the captain just go to ground for the fan of it.
No point talking about the game cause we were outplayed by Liverpool of all teams.
November 28th, 2004 at 3:35 pm
Scotty this thing is simple. We’ve seen it time and time again in sports and life. You do something the same way long enough people will figure out a way to stop you. It’s one thing when the players are at the top of their game and you know what to do to stop them but can’t, it’s another thing when they are not. We are TOO predictable, in personnel and play. You can set your watch by how Wenger picks team. I’m glad we lost, a draw would have papered things over. Let’s go back to the drawing board.
November 28th, 2004 at 3:39 pm
I won’t bet against a 4-0 drubbing. The whole team stinks. Even the win against Spurs was shambolic - they basically begged us to win the match. If we continue like this retaining the championship will be the least of our worries.
November 28th, 2004 at 3:57 pm
I’m not here to defend Vieira but the guy is doing a job for 3 people. Wait I’m not coming up with excuses but our midfield is just crap. FC was vert tired. Pires can’t defend to save it life, Reyes gone to the dogs.
I taught Liverpool doesn?t have any strikers but Gerrard somehow was a part time striker today. We don’t have plan B and until Wenger stop sitting on his ass* and rest some of these guys and give others a chance kiss good bye to the league.
I have said it time and time again that the league is won in May but can’t see these lot winning it if they don’t have a rest. Also I have been saying the only team to beat Arsenal are Arsenal themselves. You saw them chasing fcuking shadows today cause they are Fcuking tired. Wenger just notice that today. You have to loved Wenger?s excuses today thou.
“We had a big game on Wednesday and we hadn’t completely recovered from that.”
Well Wenger so did liverpool. They played on wednesday with lots of injuries.
He added: “I don’t think the second goal was outstanding, it was more down to our mistake and that’s why it became a good goal.
I don’t know what you were watching again. May PV blatant dive
November 28th, 2004 at 4:13 pm
I wouldn’t have made wholesale changes…
I might have played Flamini for Cesc, VanPersie starting for Reyes. What else could/would you do.
The back 4 is the back 4. No problem there. All the midfielders are injured. Flamini for Cesc? Pennant is injured. Bergkamp is injured. Henry has to play PERIOD.
November 28th, 2004 at 4:15 pm
and Chelsea… yes if we had Vieira on the pitch, I would say BRING THEM ON. Now, if he is out suspended… we are f***ed…. Cesc, who hasn’t exactly been good… can’t blame him he’s playing every match at 17… and Flamini?… that spells trouble in the middle of the park. I would imagine that there will be strange defensive type line-up v. Chelsea with one striker up front. At the very least it will be interesting.
November 28th, 2004 at 4:19 pm
This is where we disagree.
A point is a point is a point, and EVERY point is important.
If you think we are going to drastically change this team… you will be very disappointed. It is not going to happen. Wenger is not going to change the style of play or his main players because we lost a few matches in November. This is a BIG test for the Arsenal Football Club. What are the players made of… its soon getting to the sink or swim period… I will be screaming my head off FOR THEM… regardless…. they need our support now more than ever… not just when we are going undefeated.
November 28th, 2004 at 4:20 pm
??????
You too… are saying we’ll lose 4-0 to Chelsea.
Should we sack Wenger now? Or wait til January?
November 28th, 2004 at 4:37 pm
I have to agree, in part. What’s happening, as far as anyone can tell, is a sort of “perfect storm” of problems…starting with injuries.
Sure, we have a more or less predictable style of play and line-up. But it worked for a looooong while, and no one can convince me that ten men behind the ball is enough to slip us up if we’re healthy. There will always be space for us to exploit when we’re not taking three steps and wincing from a nagging injury. But a machine works when things are in place, and once something kicks out, the whole thing can fall apart. A chain reaction then occurs, with frustrated offensive players failing to track back, and posession given away from being too anxious.
Another problem, as I see it and as Wenger has said, is fatigue. Sure, Liverpool were tired as well, but they were home and they were pumped for US as is every other team against the champions. When you play precision, lightening pass football, if you’re not at least 90% on average across the field, you’re going to be a yard short here and there. That problem compounds itself. The faster the car, the larger the margin for error when something little trips up. We need to find a way to burrow through, and that is anathema to the way we play.
Stagg makes a good point also in that we didn’t give up a set piece goal. You may want to chalk that up to poor efforts by Pool, but all in all, it didn’t happen. Hey, we need to find something, yes?
And the final part of the storm is missing key players for too long. Sol is back, but his absence has allowed soft goals to hurt our confidence. You don’t just get that back the second he steps on the field. Gilberto is badly missed. Let’s not forget, last season one of the longest running arguments on this forum was who was better, Edu or Gilberto. Arsene had the opportunity to flip flop them, play one and rest the other. The competition was there between them, as well. Midfield is the key, and when your opponent has five in the way, you need to keep posession and know how to get through. Just too much for us right now.
We’re young out there, tired, injured, AND in need of confidence to improve our form. The combination is, as we are seeing, deadly. There are better, MUCH better days ahead when we’re back and healthy. Until then, I’m afraid we’re just going to have to wait this storm out, Gooners.
November 28th, 2004 at 4:45 pm
On our side: over-confidence on the part of Chelsea (can’t believe I’m even typing this), and…
On their side: Everything else.
It could be bad, but a sound beating could be avoided if we’re willing to make changes (point of this posting) until we’re healthy. We need to find a new way to keep the wolves at bay until we’ve recovered. Any weakness will be exploited, regardless of whom we’re playing. Blackburn to Chelsea, we’re vulnerable.
BUT, doing well considering.
November 28th, 2004 at 4:57 pm
Alas I don’t have an arsenal shirt to wager!
I love Wenger - who doesn’t? - but he’s not noted for experimenting with the formation. When did we last not play 4-4-2? Anyway, why would we move our excellent centre back Kolo into midfield when we haven’t anyone half as good to replace him in defence? The defence now looks OK-ish (so long as we’re injury-free) but the defensive midfield is decidedly lacking so it wouldn’t be astonishing if we conceeded pretty heavily against a very good side. After all, we’ve conceeded against even the minnows of late. Since Chelsea’s defence is exceptional (clean sheets so far in the CL) and since we’re currently having difficulty scoring even against Palace and West Brom, it’s hard to predict a better result. Not a reason for sacking Wenger, of course, but I do long for January or perhaps even June.
November 28th, 2004 at 5:06 pm
Yup, Vieira was brilliant and really worked hard. Tiredness - what to do? We can’t solve the problem by playing the kids - not in the near future because they’ve got their Carling game on Wednesday, and the week after is Chelsea. Will poor Cesc have to play on Wed and then next Sat and then midweek again in the CL? It’ll destroy him.
I thought their second goal was amazing. Actually the first one was pretty good too.
November 28th, 2004 at 7:06 pm
Most of these players are selected no matter what. Sometimes you wonder whether Wenger is scared to put players like Henry and Vieira on the bench. Am with you on Alex and even the new chelsea manager. They rotate their squad and is true what someone once said here. Most of these Arsenal players are sitting in a comfort zone knowing whatever happens they will play the next game.
November 28th, 2004 at 7:10 pm
That is Wenger for you. A very great manager but sometimes let his emotions kills the game. Sees what he wanna see and can’t believe he said their second goal wasn’t a good one.