2 losses in 54 games is an amazing record and it is one that makes me immensely proud to be a gooner.
But the two losses could hardly have been more contrasting.
On the one hand, we have an egoistic, overpriced team managed by old purple nose whose IQ wasn?t high enough to devise a fair tactic to beat us (not that there?s a shame in that), who had to resort to not only hacking us out of contention, but relying on a referee (who, since that day, has invoked feelings I am yet to put in words) to gift them victory. To cut a long story short, they cheated us 2-0.
On the other hand, we have a Liverpool team going through a tricky patch due to the transition of their manager, whose new man, our nemesis from his time at Valencia, Rafael Benitez, played us out of the park. I for one thought that Liverpool dominated and were worth their victory and as hard as it is to stomach a last kick winner, I would not have chosen to lose any other way.
My feelings after the 2 games also differ greatly. After the manure game, swear words made up of most of my thoughts whereas right now, I?m more engaged with the three beautiful goals I?ve just witnessed.
The manure match obviously left us gutted, so gutted that the edge in our game has disappeared since then, and we cannot seem to find it again, hence my delight at the fashion of our loss to the ?pool today.
Remember the season before last, when we threw away our 8 point lead? That inspired us to go a whole season unbeaten and I have a gut feeling that today?s loss, along with the recent string of poor results, is going to catapult us back into our early season form. The player?s are going to be forced to look at their games and find solutions to the two main problems facing us at the moment: 1) scoring against a 10 men wall and 2) keeping that bloody clean sheet. We?re going to come out with a renewed desire and hunger and heaven help our opposition when we do.
Trust me, we?re bouncing back from this really, REALLY strongly..
29 Responses to “Liverpool vs. Manure”
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November 28th, 2004 at 4:14 pm
Guys get over it.. Instead of having a name calling game with United which it not helping anyone, look at Chelsea doing what we used to do best.
Dont let us be sore losers bitching* about other teams and managers but instead, find out ways how we can improve our own squad. Be more positive not negative.
As A Cole said that game is history and looking forward to the future. People will say all the crazy things but he don’t have no problem with van the horse. These things happens. If blaming the referee is going to give us 3 points then wicked. Is not. That is football sometimes is goes against you sometimes you win.
I what to read something positive. Move on.
November 28th, 2004 at 5:00 pm
Love the positive message. Its all we can do. Let’s not give the wanky lurkers the satisfaction.
I can see it now…each and every one of our lads lies down to sleep and thinks about how they can start winning again. Each feels the hunger, the drive, putting the ManUre game behind them and thinking about nothing but visualizing goals like the “old” days. Then…
…they get on the pitch and it doesn’t happen. Why? These lads are TIRED. And I don’t just mean tired from mid-week CL mishaps, but there’s no amount of inspiration that will just SNAP us back into form. These guys look tired of being Gunners.
Wenger’s style of total football, perfected hertofore by Ajax back in the day, requires an enormous amount of form and depth to string together what we did last season into a new season. We have no air attack, no set piece attack, no lucky nick here and there. We have break and pass football, charging into the defense of our opponents and, because we’re stale-injured-young-fatigued-pressured, ONE small mistake does nothing but rob us of confidence because we KNOW that we don’t have a plan B. Wenger football is too tough to maintain without strong rotation, which we’ve sacrificed for “Youth for the Grove”.
Tough on the lads, really. I would rest two or more at a time until January and try and concentrate on one last surge against Rosenborg. We just need new blood, and if I know Wenger, its on the way. No real experience, but lots of new talent. Who’s to say that won’t be enough?
Keep the faith, all. The team needs to know that everyone believes. It may just tip the difference.
November 28th, 2004 at 5:48 pm
If you are expecting us to quickly revert to making 4 or 5 changes in the team…. playing a bunch of kids in the league games…. you’ve not been watching Arsene Wenger and the Arsenal over the past ?? how many years.
I would not expect or want us to throw a bunch of the reserve team out there…
I would LIKE to see the likes of J.Pennant… and R.VanPersie get legitimate playing time, including a few starts. We can rotate the wings… and even the striker pairing with Henry… We do not have ANY choice in midfield other than Vieira and Cesc/Flamini. Its apparent AW is ok with Cesc being out there… although he has hardly been impressive of late… not sure why Flamini is not getting his chance… with Cesc getting a breather.
With Vieira suspended for Chelsea… (I think)… we have a huge HOLE in central midfield against the Blues.
Positives:
Have your go at whomever you wish.
Vieira had a good goal… I thought he played very hard and well in the 2nd half. He was passionate out there today.
Henry, even at less than 100%, played a good 2nd half… he still scares the daylights out the opponent… and makes them look silly at times. He can make runs that nobody else dares to try.
The back 4 will only gel a bit in the next few weeks… no set piece goals today… although Sol/Kolo banged into each other on the last play… the ball squirted loose…. and was banged home in a good goal…
We are still in the thick of it… we still have an interesting CC match-up during the week… hopefully our kids shine at OT… very excited about that match.
We have Birmingham on the weekend… and I think we might even have a few Yanks at that one!
and…. CL v. Rosenborg on Tuesday… without Vieira and Lauren…. which means Cesc/Flamini in the middle?? at least they’ll have a rehearsal before Chelsea… and Hoyte probably playing for Lauren.
Its not the end of the world folks… we are obviously not the same squad as last season… I really didn’t expect the undefeated cake walk that was THE INVINCIBLES. Teams adapt. Thats a fact in any sport. Once someone sees how to be successful against the dominant team, they copy it. Why wouldn’t they… now we need to change a bit of what we are doing… A BIT… you don’t change how you play in mid-season…!!! You have to make adjustments, be it to the roster or the line-up, and obviously the tactics…
We are still the Arsenal. We are still and excellent team…. its not always roses… we are not just hunting for glory…
so please…
save the “were doomed” / “we stink” crap… we aren’t doomed… we don’t stink… its called a bad patch…. support thru thick and thin… it won’t last much longer…. and January is 4 weeks away.
November 28th, 2004 at 5:59 pm
I agree 100%. Its happened, its happened. Vent and get over it. Time to move on. Right now we’re in the class of West Brom, Palace and othe lower table slummers.
November 28th, 2004 at 6:58 pm
I am with you too..Is about time some of us move on and worried about Arsenal not what happen a month ago.
There are times when a prudent silence is wise and that goes to all the managers not just the fans.
November 28th, 2004 at 11:00 pm
Well I won’t pretend, I do not expect things to get better. I’m quite sure we’ll drop points to Birmingham next week. The weaknesses are structural. We’ve lost Keown, Palour,Van Bronckhorst, Jeffers, Wiltord, Kanu, Luzhny. Most of these players have never been adequately replaced. We no longer have a strong bench - just take a look. For example we have no real deputy for Henry. Look at the striking options at ManU or Chelsea - four solid internationals. Compare the defensive cover at ManU and Chelsea with ours. Even in the midfield we should not suffer so much because if we had a decent proven spare center back, we could push Kolo up, if Wenger wanted to. It’s been done before in other teams. Wenger brought in some youngsters, but they are clearly for the future, at least in his reckoning, since they seldom play.
In the meantime there are no experienced replacements and we’ve been exposed by injury. The slump is partly also due to the fact that so many while not fully injured are less than 100%. Well you can’t make your body do what it physically can’t by shear force of will, at least not under normal circumstances. Without R&R Henry will be below par, so will Reyes and Campbell. Fab needs a rest - poor kid. Pires and Vieira are still recovering. I wonder how many games Kolo has played; I wonder when he breaks down. Add that to a goalkeeper who was great behind a great defence, but otherwise is average at best. These are facts that are not going to change. I see absolutely no way out of this without new blood in the team.
And where is it coming from? How do you ask the new to help the old when they’ve never been given a chance? Better hope our Edu recovers soon.
Two seasons ago L’Pool started well then went into a similar tailspin. It was almost two or three months before they recovered and even then they never fully did. We have no divine right to win, and right now there’s simply no fuel in the tank. You can’t remember a top three team having such a bad spell. If we’d started the first six games of the season like this we’d actually be in the relegation zone. ManU was never that bad during their spell - well they still managed to beat us, so they couldn’t have.
November 29th, 2004 at 1:04 am
I don’t think he’s still complaining about the ManU match, he’s just stating how he felt and how it affected him. He’s also being fairly optimistic about the loss to Liverpool, so chill out and read his post a little more carefully.
November 29th, 2004 at 1:32 am
I said it yesterday, and I’ll say it again. No hunger. You can’t have a first half like that and still tell me they have hunger. They don’t. Don’t avoid the question by moving it to injuries, or tiredness, or psychology, or anything else. They need a huge dose of “The other guy is trying to steal my lunch, and he’s in for a nasty surprise if thinks I’m going to take that lying down.” syndrome. It’s not about heart. Arsenal have good heart. If it was about heart then a special olympics squad could win the league. It’s about anger. Controlled anger. And we don’t have a single drop of it. If you’re a champion and someone tries to take your medal away - and you let them without getting angry - you don’t deserve the medal.
The following comments were made by a man who will always be a gooner. I am not a fair-weather fan. I will never switch allegiance. I will never prefer to watch a team other than Arsenal. I will love Arsenal when they win - I will love Arsenal when they tie - I will love Arsenal when they lose. I will wish them strength and luck in all their endeavors for all the days of my life. The only thing I will never do is say - or believe - that they are perfect when they are clearly not. My love of them grants me that privilege. I am not a mindless robot who produces an “Arsenal is perfect - and always will be!” jackpot whenever you pull my finger. I am less than impressed by people who fit that description. Love them, support them, hurt for them, bleed for them, but be realistic about them too. It doesn’t mean your a bad fan.
November 29th, 2004 at 7:03 am
Ice Otter, plain HONEST, well said.
November 29th, 2004 at 9:56 am
Amen !!!!!!!!!!!!! Bro,
And can I also add few words by saying instead of ppl playing the blaming game look around you and asked why are Arsenal are so bad at the moment?
Excuses excuses and very sad when you hear so-called Gunners always blaming it on the ref, or other clubs but the plain fact is Arsenal are not good at the moment. A team with 2 good defenders and strikers is not a good team to me.
November 29th, 2004 at 11:44 am
Once a gooner always a gooner, but I disagree with the no hunger. No ability is my take. No gas in the tank.
November 29th, 2004 at 1:05 pm
No Ability?
The players on Arsenal have more ability than any other team on the PLANET!
There is something wrong. Ability is not it. We have the same starting 11 that were invincibles last season. You don’t lose talent/ability overnight.
November 29th, 2004 at 1:20 pm
Right on Armis. I am over the manure defeat but the liverpool one has had a lot to do with it. Being beaten fairly.. Now we can really bounce back.
I’m not quite sure how to put this. but after united, according to me, we couldn’t exactly bounce back because we didn’t know how. Our confidence took a battering and we didn’t know quite what to do but after pool, we can identify our mistakes having had them exploited. They have been identified before, but not in a game we have lost, hence my feeling that we will come back from thiws game much stronger than we did from OT.
I do think i am being positive..
November 29th, 2004 at 1:30 pm
Interesting point you make, Dood. It was a painful, painful game in the most constructive sense. We didn’t dominate only to be held through sloppy finishing and then lose a lead to an opponents single, soft chance…in fact, it was quite nearly the opposite. Well, almost. They actually found a last second equalizer indirectly spawned from a set piece.
Pool represented the culmination of the last six weeks worth of teams’ writing “How to Beat The Arsenal”. Now we must write a new book: “How to Once Again Ascend to Former Greatness.”
When we are healthy, and our midfield and rear guard is restored, we can once again go for broke attacking. Right now, our strikers and attacking midfield is being choked. We’re not the kind of team (injury prone) that will scrap out a win week in, week out. But we don’t need to be.
We just need to get healthy and start from scratch, utilizing our brilliant reserves. I ask…What team (except those who can just go out and buy two first teams) has a more brilliant future right under their wings?
Only one answer.
November 29th, 2004 at 3:23 pm
Absolutely. Since when has loyalty meant the refusal to look hard realities in the eye? Since when has it been the same thing as optimism? I loate fans who whine like spoilt kids and slag off the players, as though they (the fans) are owed continual success. But critical discussion isn’t whining. I find Arsenal’s present problems quite interesting - depressing, yes, but challenging too. If Arsene can figure out what’s going wrong, there’s a chance we can change and go on to even greater success.
One question? What’s all this stuff about tiredness? I mean WHY are they tired in November? Is this a fitness problem or a mental one?
November 29th, 2004 at 3:39 pm
Miranda, I would imagine if they are tired, its because they trot out the same 11 or 12 players each and every game!
So, that begs the question… why not play a few kids on occasion?!
We have no choice in midfield at the moment…
but thats on Arsene as well…
November 29th, 2004 at 3:47 pm
I mean no ability as in tired/burnt out etc. They’re human after all aren’t they?
November 29th, 2004 at 4:50 pm
True, although they seemed to be super-human last season… they are mere mortals this year for sure.
November 29th, 2004 at 5:18 pm
Last season, it is said that Wenger used the smallest number of players of any manager in the Premiership. This season the squad is even smaller made worse through injury. This is all for a team in the champions league, playing football at superhuman speed. Last season we got tired towards the end. It showed against Chelsea in the CL. The only time you see Arsenal outplayed is when they are tired. Against Liverpool they managed a final burst of energy, then after that many of the games were rather meaningless - we won the title at Spurs, and even that game we threw away a two goal lead. The signs have been there if you look, but then I guess I’m looking harder than most.
Now Wenger himself says “…..I always feel that it is better to bring in new players, especially young players, when we are winning games.” And he’s right. It’s not fair to them. That’s why when this slump is over, and it will be over, he should revise this policy of not giving players a rest and using the same small number of players over and over again.
Anyways he’s not making any major chances. They better get their rest while they can. Maybe we should send the kids out to play Birmingham, risk a draw or defeat and give the seniors a good rest for Chelsea.
November 29th, 2004 at 5:43 pm
I ask myself that same question a lot Miranda. Why aren’t other Champions League, or even UEFA Cup teams just as tired as we are? I know we play a lot of the same players every week, but there are other teams that do too. I have to believe there is a lot more mental tiredness here than meets the eye. Maybe there was always going to be another shoe dropping after our undefeated season last year. I wish I knew a single thing about sports psychology so I could intepret what has been going on, but alas I am clueless. I am sure of one thing though, and that is that we are going to improve. As others have suggested, we might even come out of this mentally stronger. We need to fight for it though, or the lesson won’t be painful enough to stick.
November 29th, 2004 at 5:48 pm
We can’t play the kids against Birmingham because they’ve got the Carling mid-week - i.e. they’d REALLY be tired! I don’t altogether believe in the tiredness of the first team, not this early in the season. It seems more like a mental thing, a kind of flagging of the spirits because things have gone wrong. Rotating as the answer? Yes, I’m sure, but you need a larger and stronger squad than we’ve got. If we could have used Senderos, say, instead of Cygan earlier in the season, I’m sure Wenger would have done it. As it is, he’s having to play Cesc more than he wants because he’s the only central midfielder available. The answer is spend and spend more in January, I’m afraid, though by then Edu will be back and perhaps even Gilberto. I’d be inclined to buy a striker, I think. Lupoli may be ready for the first team soon, so may Quincy, but if they’re not, and if Henry was out injured for any length of time, then where would we be? I’m not sure Reyes and van P are enough and Dennis looks to be getting injuries more than he did in the past.
November 29th, 2004 at 7:20 pm
I highly doubt we will be going in for a striker. We have scored the most goals in the Premiership for how many years running?
Henry Pires Bergkamp Freddie Reyes VanPersie
There’s 6 offensive players… who can ALL put the biscuit in the basket. The problem is not there.
Bergy is oft injured… has been for years. I wouldn’t want another striker… he’d be on the bench or VanPersie/Reyes would be on a consistent basis. We can’t have it both ways… wanting the kids to play…. and then NOT.
We are in crisis in midfield… if anyone is tired, its Vieira / Cesc… they have to play every match. Do we play Vieira on Weds. v. United? because he won’t be playing at Chelsea??? It will be Flamini/Cesc…. which is a VERY scary thought against the likes of Lampart/Makelele…
November 29th, 2004 at 7:29 pm
Ice…. we played at such a high level for so long… we play an offensive style…. and I think that has a bit to do with fatigue… but not much.
We DO trot out the same 11 or 12 guys all the time. When I saw yesterday’s team… I was a bit speechless… I expected VanPersie … hoped Flamini might play for Cesc… but not only did either start…. we trotted out the same 11 that played vs. PSV!
I am NOT one that advocates big changes and large amounts of rotating in the squad… especially at the back, but if there is fatigue, its on Arsene… he could have played Flamini in the middle, VanPersie up front, and Hoyte at the back. Is that drastic rotation? I don’t think so… if Wenger played just one or 2 new faces every other game… perhaps it might make a difference.
If we get healthy, then the players that WILL rotate are Edu, Gilberto, Cesc…. in midfield…
Clichy at the back… and Bergy playing up front. The same cast of characters… but excellent players. We don’t have that luxury with injuries right now… and its apparent that AW doesn’t have the confidence in the kids to rotate them in where needed at this time.
Wednesday’s line-up for BOTH Arsenal and United should be very very interesting.
November 29th, 2004 at 9:57 pm
I don’t think calling ManU “ManUre” or their venerable coach “old purple nose” is exactly name calling. I also believe that it does not somehow convey a lack of moral integrity, nor is it un-sportsmanship for that matter. It is all in good fun and harms no one. You can imagine what ARSEnal is called by devoted ManU supporters: suffice it to say you do it in the bog and you do not spread it on fields as fertilizer. I would not put it on the same level as calling someone an actual pejorative or using racist slurs, for which we should have no tolerance.
I respect ManU but affectionately refer to them myself as ManUre. Being Dutch I also remember the many goals Ruud ?Horse face? has earned for my Dutch National side with some glee. Even with that in mind, I would be hard pressed to say that Ruud has not adopted some of the tactics of modern football and maybe taken a dive or two or worse.
It is also part of the game to have some fun. I got a good laugh out of the whole Arsenal ? ManU debacle and what followed but not from the game. I got an even bigger belly laugh out of the jokes on Ruud and Rooney over the internet while choking down my pizza and soup; i.e. < http://www.onlinegooner.com/images/goonGall/2004_09_laugh_1.JPG >
We need to be light hearted even about these things from time to time or the fun goes out of the game as a real supporters: as I perceive no malice in the above remarks, I think it is safe to say that the fun is still there.
That said, yes the game is indeed history: but to borrow an old adage from that same field of study “If we don’t learn from history we’re bound to relive the mistakes from the past ourselves. The ManU game was poorly officiated and with the Rooney dive and Ruud?s flagrant foul on Cole, we felt justified to feel robbed of the 50th win.
The Liverpool game was another matter altogether, in as much as Arsenal just lost that game and played poorly throughout. Why? Well that indeed is a question worth looking into. The process of catharsis requires us to delve into the negative at times even if we would like to see the world through rose coloured glasses. Personally I think we lost because of the ?blue away kit? if that is not too wacky for you. I didn?t like Arsene?s logic or explanation afterwards ?Arsene Wenger says afterwards that Arsenal couldn’t compete physically.?
I don?t know how we could be positive on that matter except to remember that loosing 2 games in the last 53.
We are still the champions and have not suddenly lost our talent. The panic button is just not ready to be pushed yet. I keep thinking that other supporters are hearing the fat lady warming up but we should remember that if Arsenal can loose games so could Chelsea and they will. On that point, you are correct ?football sometimes is goes against you sometimes you win? and that rule goes across the board to everyone playing the beautiful game. As a Dutch Supporter, I have wept too many tears to forget that during World Cups of the past.
November 30th, 2004 at 12:46 am
Do you think Clichy could be played in other positions at the back? He’s so excellent subbing for Ashley when he is out, but I’m curious if you can convert that talent to the other wing, or perhaps even center back. He might not carry the weight for the middle, but I’m curious what your thoughts are nonetheless.
November 30th, 2004 at 8:32 am
Well said. I enjoy the jokes as well. Get too worked up about them and you’re flirting dangerously with becoming an indignantly, self-righteous bore.
That being said, racist, sexist, and other comments of that ilk should be punished with extreme physical pain. With you on that and it can’t be said enough.
But back to jokes, one of my favorites, and I’m sure I’m saying it wrong, involves David Beckham going to Heaven. He arrives at the gates and tells St. Peter that he is relieved to see that he made it there considering that God is surely a football fan and that he’s played like such shite, lately. St. Peter says, “Well, actually, you’re right. We just called you here to give you your ball back.”
Ahem…anyhow, Henry is blaming injuries on much of their slump. I agree with him to an extent. Our big guns need rest, as fatigue comes around pretty quickly and never seems to leave when your expending all that extra energy to compensate.
November 30th, 2004 at 8:35 am
Not sure anyone is still checking this post, but…
…when you play with niggling or worse injuries, the extra energy to compensate for them is quite fatiguing. Add to that the intensity of the EPL, the style of football, and the fact that we’re getting kicked around quite a bit by teams who have chosen to play us that way, and you’ve got some serious fuel depletion on your hands.
November 30th, 2004 at 1:14 pm
Ice, I would imagine Clichy could play at Right Back… subbing for Lauren… that would inject some speed on the right side, aye?
But then I think of Defensemen in the NHL… and usually they play one side or the other…
The great ones can play anywhere…
Kolo can play CD, fullback, midfield or striker…
I am not sure Clichy could play in Central Defense, but I DO think he could move to right back …. HOYTE should get the chance though… he hasn’t played badly in his few chances.
What we do against Chelsea??? Maybe… just maybe move Kolo to midfield? with Cesc and Flamini and Cygan at the back with Sol…
4-5-1
????????
again…. looks dubious, but it will be interesting to see the line-up, and you have to PLAY THE GAMES. I think anything can happen in a one-off match… we have alot of talented players…. and we have some folks on THIS SITE saying that Chelsea will beat us 4-0?! Get REAL, I say… I’d bet my car that doesn’t occur.
November 30th, 2004 at 4:38 pm
You’re right, I can’t see Chelsea burying us. More like a 1-0 win after they pick up a set-piece goal in the 12th minute of play and then sit on it. Not sure about personnel, but I like the 4-5-1 idea because it looks and feels defensive, which might bring out more offensively minded play in Chelsea, which we can counterattack, eh?