Within a season or so I predict Cesc will be the best central midfielder in Europe. So maybe it’s time to start planning for this.
Vieira, by contrast, is not the player he was. Partly his poor form can be explained by the absence of Gilberto: Paddy needs a holding midfielder behind him; he doesn’t thrive on having to do the lion’s share of the defensive work on his own. But I’m not convinced it’s the whole explanation. Vieira is getting older; his ambition is perhaps not as fierce as it was; maybe the decision not to move to Real has in some intangible way dampened his fires. Certainly within a couple of years his pace and his strength - not to mention his value - will start to decline.
Cesc and Viera won’t ever play well together. Despite their very different styles and talents, they’re actually in competition for the same spot. They both need a player like Gilberto (or Flamini) sitting behind them. Neither wants to be in that holding role.
I love Vieira; I’ll grieve when he goes. But he’s our past, and Cesc is our future. Not now, not in January, but perhaps at the end of the season - would this be the right moment to cash in and think of Cesc as the new heart of midfield?
Think of it: a whole new experience of summer! Remember last August, and the August before, and the one before that? Then again, not sure what I’ll do with myself without Vieira - will he? won’t he? - to tear me apart.
30 Responses to “Cesc or Vieira?”
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December 12th, 2004 at 7:49 pm
I agree. Cesc is the future, but he needs the right player along him. Hopefully he’s growing and will get bigger and taller. Right now he has incredible vision, kinda reminds me of a better Chris Waddle if you don’t mind.
Personally I wanted Pat to go, was tired of whole song and dance, but with the injuries its good to have him, and he’s still one of the best.
Worry I have about Cesc is what happens when he’s a star and wants to prove himself in his homeland?. He may think he’s been away long enough. He just needs one big tournament before those vultures in Madrid come sniffing round and if not, he’s a confessed Barca fan. If and when the time comes just hope we can cash in.
Just a thought.
December 12th, 2004 at 8:42 pm
Cesc, at 17, has a long way to go. I wouldn’t be trying to offload Vieira in January by any stretch of the imagination. Cesc at 18… will have gained ALOT of valuable experience… more than he should have perhaps, because he will likely have played in twice as many matches as Wenger had planned to play him, or more!
I am a self-admitted BIG Vieira fan. He sort of showed me that the game was won in midfield, not by goal-scorers! He is by far the best midfielder we have, and we will need Patrick Vieira at close to his best if we have any hopes of lifting the league trophy again this season… winning the FA Cup… or the Champions League this season.
Do not delude yourself into thinking any differently. I personally would part with $25 Million to bring in Steven Gerrard over the Summer. There will be those who agree, and those who will disagree. But he is the closest thing I see to the Vieira I know and admire. Wouldn’t mind seeing them partner up for a year!!!!!!!
Cesc / Flamini played valiantly today. Fantastic to see it… greatly enjoyed it. Now, they’ve done it for a few matches, thats a far cry from doing it for a half-season…. a full season… or more.
Our young star Reyes had a brilliant start to the season, and then has gone straight down hill. You do not start shipping out superstars until you are fully aware that you have the geniune article replacing them.
Also, as noted previously. Cesc didn’t exactly grow up on Gillespie Road. He may grow to love London and the Arsenal. But who is to say he won’t want to leave in a few years for his homeland… for his favoirte team Barcelona…??
For now… we need Patrick Vieira at his best. We also need Gilberto beside him! Let’s hope that happens sometime soon.
December 13th, 2004 at 12:14 am
Very sobering thought Stag. I hadn’t really thought about Cesc leaving, but you could be spot on. Anything can happen. I hope his recent contract is a good indicator that he is happy in London. Point well taken though. You might have seen my earlier post on Gerrard, so you know I agree with you completely.
December 13th, 2004 at 3:00 am
judging from last nite’s perfomance, i’m beginning to flirt with the idea of life without pat.True we need him,inspirational captain,best midfielder…. but really what we should be thinking abt is giving the young players more time to show what they can do!Flamini and Cesc were fantastic if you consider that they have not had as much experience in big games as makelele,lampard,Tiago and the rest of the moneybags that attempted to run them down. I liked Arsene’s courage in dropping Lehman and he should do more of that when a player is not at his best he should not play simple as that!!Regardless of how many years he’s had at the top. if we are to retain the championship we are going to have to go back to winning ways and on a weekly basis.I think Flamini’s work rate was incredible last nite!! Really bright future for us wdn’t you think?
December 13th, 2004 at 8:00 am
its got to be cesc but i dont think we need to make that decision right now. vieira is past is best, has been for a while now, but is still a good player when motivated.
i think our best midfield pairing is gilberto and fabregas, compliment each other very well. edu/fabregas as well but the seen as he’s joining valencia he can sod off as far as im concerned.
was worried by flamini and fabregas in first half, completely outplayed by lampard,tiago and makele. but when chelsea changed to 4-4-2 they bossed midfield.
p.s- was i the only one who wanted to deck Lauren for losing control of the ball and giving away the free-kick for chelsea’s goal. i seriously hope he pisses off, he played well for a spell there but is bloody annoying me now. same goes for ashely cole, to a lesser extent.
i also think we should drop kolo toure and start with phillipe senderos, at least he can head the ball. toure is subtly undermining us with his indecision and when was the last time he headed the ball?
December 13th, 2004 at 8:25 am
???
Should we start Lupoli over Bergy too? He didn’t play well yesterday??
Our best midfielding pair is Vieira and Gilberto. PERIOD. They might be the best midfielding pair in England, when healthy. When that occurs, Cesc will be on the bench.
December 13th, 2004 at 8:27 am
The future is BRIGHT. Agreed.
If you are waiting for / expecting Patrick Vieira to be on the bench or transferred in January… I think you are sadly mistaken and will be waiting at the very least, until next Summer.
Cesc has played decently for 1/3 of a season. Let’s not get confused with reality. Patrick Vieira has been one of the worlds best for YEARS. Wenger is not dropping Vieira for Cesc. Get Real. (no pun intended!)
December 13th, 2004 at 8:28 am
I think Lehmann is already on a plane to Germany. This time it wasn’t his form and dizzying blunders that side-lined him, but his mouth. If Munich, Wolfsburg, Stuttgart or Dortmund want his self-important antics, they can have him as far as I’m concerned.
He’s saved us many times, and for that I am grateful. He’s not a Gunner, but he plays one on TV.
December 13th, 2004 at 8:40 am
I’m trying to think of which Gunners have abandoned or TRIED to abandon Wenger before he was more or less ready to let them go…only one comes to mind. Looks like Paddy has us paranoid all over again, and its not even over HIS leaving. Who CHOOSES to bugger off without it being at least 50-50 mutual? Nobody leaves The Arsenal unless nudged.
Stagg, I know you’re a tireless fan of him, and I understand your reasons. The guy has helped us get to where we are. He’s kind of untouchable among the Highbury faithful. Truthfully, and this may surprise you, but I think we haven’t seen his best yet this season. I’m CONVINCED that there are big, BIG things from him still to come. But…
…I will say that those moments will have been at least partially due to Cesc’s success. One thing that burns me is the way big players can lose…something…and have it affect the team. If Paddy has an injury as Henry suggests, I think it may have something to do with his dedication. He’s been playing HARD, but his heart just doesn’t appear to be there 100%. Cesc’s more regular role in the first XI may just be what PV4 needs to come around again.
As always, Arsene knows….
December 13th, 2004 at 8:45 am
Toure has been worrying me now and again this season. So weird what has happened to some of these brilliant fresh faces from last season. He’s instrumental in set-pieces and is part of the problem, perhaps. But he’s got certain things Wenger LOVES: pace, versatility, and workrate. Apparently, the ability to get the ball out of the box has always fallen solely on the likes of Gilberto, Paddy and Sol.
Looking forward to Clichy getting some regular starts, as well. Senderos and van Persie, as well. There’s going to be a strong bunch of lads in the box soon, as they are all still growing and getting stronger.
December 13th, 2004 at 10:23 am
sorry, i disagree, you obviously havent watching arsenal closely for the last 18 months. possibly our worst midfield combination is vieira and gilberto, they NEVER play well togther. if you look at all of gilberto’s good games, its when veira is not playing. all those champions league games at highbury during 2002-2003 season(ajax, roma..) when we played terrible, our midfield pairing was vieira/gilberto. all the oppostion did was close the flanks and allow those two space knowing both are usless at running forward with a packed defence in front of them. they are way too similar.
why has everyone got it in their head that vieira is not a defensive midfielder? everyones saying he needs gilberto, thats false, he’s just bloody lazy, he could do the defensive job fine when he was younger. in theory, vieira and fabregas should be the perfect partnership, but it looks the worst. whose faults that?
December 13th, 2004 at 12:18 pm
I managed to watch Vieira and Gilberto and Vieira and Edu play midfield for an ENTIRE SEASON OF UNDEFEATED FOOTBALL.
If you don’t like Vieira, thats fine… but the reality is, he is one of the best midfielders in the world.
Cesc? Flamini? Gilberto? Edu?
Are they mentioned as being one of the best in England? let alone on a world… a resounding NO.
Now you have Vieira is bloody lazy.
I think you have a beef with Vieira… and as I said, more power to you. Luckily… Arsene’s running our team and Vieira will be playing every game possible.
December 13th, 2004 at 1:35 pm
In case you forget we played Chelsea yesterday and not a sunday 5 a side team. What are you on about. If you take a good look their first goal again it had nothing to do with Lauren. Henry lost ball by mistake at the first place and these things happen.
Just be happy with the draw
December 13th, 2004 at 1:39 pm
Lauren worked his ass off…
When you can’t defend a set-piece, you SHOULD be happy with a draw!
December 13th, 2004 at 1:47 pm
I am not going to blame anyone for their hard worked yesterday and anyone who comes here with some excuses needs help..
In my books the team played very well and will take a draw against a good chelsea. If I was told before the match that it was going to be a draw I would have been very happy esp. looking at the midfield and our boys in the middle were wicked.
December 13th, 2004 at 2:19 pm
You’re right. My idea about Cesc was that he’s an amazing talent, possibly a talent on the scale of Henry, which means we’d need at some stage in the future to organise the midfield around him, if we want to exploit his full potential. But I hadn’t considered the risk - yes, he’s bound to want to go home. Spanish and Italian players are attached to their homeland, much more than, say, French or Dutch or German ones seem to be. Odd that we’ve recently signed quite a few - Lupoli, Reyes . . .
Reyes: for heaven’s sake don’t write him off. We’ve barely played half a season, and for the first half of that half he was playing out of his skin. He’s bound to recover his early form before long.
Lauren: I thought he was exceptional on Sunday - amazing to get the better of the pacy Robben, who looked like Chelsea’s biggest threat.
Miranda
December 13th, 2004 at 3:07 pm
I agree with you on Lauren. I thought he played very well… I think Lauren is a classy player, all work, no flash.
Reyes… not writing him off at all. He started so damned fast, just hope he adjusts to the physcial nature of the EPL.
Cesc… could be a magnificent player, I just hopes he becomes ARSENAL thru and thru. He is 17 and in a foreign country. Who is to say what he will want from a very promising career. You can’t exactly blame him if he wanted to play in Spain someday… and you don’t make plans to start shipping out your star players based on half season performances by 17 & 20 yr.olds!!!
But…
the future COULD look oooooooooh soooooo bright with the likes of Cesc and Flamini learning from the Vieira’s of the world.
December 13th, 2004 at 3:46 pm
i am on the about the second goal. fabregas plays him a simple ball and he lets it spoon off his boot and into robben’s path, then compounds it by giving away a free-kick. result- second chelsea goal.
he did work his ass off i agree, but its these stupid lapses in concentration that is undoing the likes of henry’s good work. when henry got interviewed by sky yesterday you could tell how annoyed he was.
the mistake seemed to typify the dozy nature of lauren, rememeber man utd last season at home 1-1. if lauren had squared ball to henry we would have won, but he fell into a trance and basically did a pass back to the united keeper.
December 13th, 2004 at 3:49 pm
i don’t doubt vieira loves arsenal, but he’s been pondering his future for the last four summers with scant regard for anyone during his deliberation but himself. his conduct last summer was a disgrace.
not the vieira’s of this world, the henry’s of this world you mean. now thats a true shining example of an arsenal man. leaving us has never entered his head.
December 13th, 2004 at 5:19 pm
Henry should have been miffed at HIMSELF, not Lauren. HE allowed Terry to head the ball into the net… ball watching. HE missed the gaping net for the win.
Henry played a magnificent game. They all did. Lauren is not close to being to blame.
December 13th, 2004 at 5:22 pm
It is painfully apparent you do not like Vieira.
That unfortunately… clouds your judgement… and you make far less sense than you might otherwise.
Vieira… personally repsonsible for a LARGE part of Arsenal’s success over the last 8 years. I’d say more so than any other player on the team.
You don’t have to like him… but when you make comments without merit… I will debate every one of them.
December 13th, 2004 at 5:57 pm
Lauren’s not to blame for our set-piece fragility, but i just think we should do our utmost to prevent set-piece situations and not give way needless free-kicks.
agreed, we played a storming second half and if i just wish henry had taken a touch to steady himself when he blazed over. but you could tell mourinho was shocked how we outplayed them in the second, serves him right for trying take us on 4-4-2!
December 13th, 2004 at 6:10 pm
i’ll agree to disagree. but i just think he lacks motivation and has inflated opinion on his importance to the team. he thinks his mere presence his helping the team, when its not. its the big whoa he creates every summer with his transfer saga that makes me criticise him more, than say, someone like bergkamp. he brings it on himself to a large degree with his attention-seeking deliberations.
give me a motivated vieira, i.e his second half against liverpool, ,leicester at home last season;and ive got no complaints. i have no vendetta against vieira, i was at highbury as a 14 yr old against leeds in 1996/7 when vieira was imperious and he was my hero in those golden days. but times change.when he does go or retire ill try and retain the image of vieira in the late 90’s, not the one of recent years.
December 13th, 2004 at 9:48 pm
Miranda
Agree with your assessment that Viera and Fabregas are not the ideal midfield pairing for Arsenal. Both are not holding midfielders unlike Gilberto or Flamini. The strongest pairing has to be Viera-Gilberto. Next I would consider Viera-Flamini or Gilberto-Fabregas. Viera may not be the same player as he was last season but his influence is still there. I am sure opponents would rather see another name in place of Viera when facing the Gunners. Flamini and Fabregas are still young and playing them alongside Viera and Gilberto will make them better players.
It is still possible to partner Fabregas and Viera but that means Viera will need to play a holding midfield position and resist the temptation to venture upfield too often. Fabregas incisive passing can unlock many defences as Chel$ki found out last Sunday before Henry miss his 7 yarder. Both are strong going forward but Viera is stronger breaking down opposing attacks.
With Edu as good as gone, I am sure Wenger will bring in a midfielder cum defender type of player in Jan. And make that a tall one strong in the air as well.
There is some speculation about Gerrard. I am not sure if we can afford him but if we do, then it is imperative that Viera plays a holding midfield position like Hamman does for Pool while Gerrard ventures upfield.
December 13th, 2004 at 10:45 pm
Thats his arrogance. It will eventually undo his team.
December 14th, 2004 at 8:38 am
And if you notice, the whinging has come been in steady stream since they were outclassed (except for the dreaded s.p.). Starting to sound like ManUre.
They’re dropping points and complaining. Could only mean one thing: BLIP!
December 14th, 2004 at 4:18 pm
After Mourinho’s mocking of Almunia before the game, it was nice to see him outplaying the supposedly infallible Cech! I bet Wenger picked Almunia out of sheer bloodymindedness in response.
Miranda
December 14th, 2004 at 4:23 pm
Freddie’s headaches are getting really worrying - let’s hope he feels better soon and the brain scan is OK. If he’s going to be out for a while, looks like we’re going to need a right winger who can fill in at right back rather than a central midfielder like Gerard. I’d like to think Pennant could be the answer, but increasingly I’m not sure.
Miranda
December 14th, 2004 at 6:12 pm
Mazza
Lauren is at fault for the second goal which was due to him giving away a needless freekick when he miscontrol a pass and had to foul Robben in the process. Cole’s lack of aerial ability was exploited by Gallas from the freekick. Wiith both Lauren and Cole being weak in the air, don’t be surprised we see more teams pumping more high balls towards Lauren and Cole.
For the first goal I would pin it down to Campbell for not marking Terry who is Chel$ki’s most lethal player in the air from setpieces. Instead it was Henry who was next to Terry and he made a mess trying to challenge Terry for the ball in the air.
December 14th, 2004 at 6:15 pm
Before giving up on Pennant, Wenger should stick him in Ljundberg’s place to see how he performs. He has the speed and the ability to get past players though he does not appear in the box as often as Ljundberg. Don’t give up on Pennant yet.