After an abysmal performance in Munich is everything gloom and doom? Well, yes certainly, if we play like this again.
But let’s keep in mind the fact that we need to win the second leg by the same score, 2-0, as we would have needed if we had lost only 1-0. Which is another way of looking at how crucial was the away goal.
In 1970 we lost 3-1 away to Anderlecht in the first leg of the final of the Fairs (now UEFA) cup. It was 3-0 before Ray Kennedy got a very late goal for us. At Highbury, in one of those unforgettable evenings, we won 3-0 with goals from Kelly, Radford and Sammels. One of the greatest games I have ever seen - gives me chills just to reflect on it again!
I’m not sure this current team/squad is capable of defending in the manner that will be required to turn this one around - but it’s not out of the question, especially if they can get an early goal to get the crowd fully involved.
Seems nicely poised to me.
29 Responses to “ALL GLOOM AND DOOM?”
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February 22nd, 2005 at 11:49 pm
I am with you on this Connid.
BELIEVE!!!!!!!
We need a good start, an early goal… and the crowd to be obnoxiously LOUD and BEHIND THE TEAM.
Sol and Cole back in defense will help tremendously, and Bergy can create more chances.
IT CAN BE DONE.
Last year, Champs League… I believe someone was up 3-0 after the first leg and LOST 4-0 in the 2nd fixture.
We need a 2 goal victory. We don’t need a freaking miracle.
IT CAN BE DONE.
I personally believe we will do it. There will be LOTS of sceptics out there…. but I think that this is THE game. It could catapult us to glory.
February 23rd, 2005 at 4:44 am
Let’s be realistic. Yes, it’s possible that we could still win the return 2-0 and go through, but does anyone really think we can keep a clean sheet against Bayern? Or against anyone for that matter?
Every good team that has come to Highbury this season ahs scored against us - Man Utd(4), Chelsea(2), Pana(1) etc.
We’ll be out of the Champs League at the first knockout stage. Our record in this competition is becoming embarrassing.
Our defense this season has been a shambles and Wenger needs to sort it our in the summer.
February 23rd, 2005 at 6:45 am
wenger said we need to sort out defence before second leg, but its a fruitless exercise, especially considering campbell may not be back according to reports.
in 2 weeks cygan is still gonna be suffering from arthritus, lauren is stilll going to incapable of jockeying his man without sliding in and making a fool of himself and getting turned. toure? will toure still gonna be toure, all good intentions but still playing like a person with shizophrenic-like indecision.
henry is getting more and more pissed off with the defence and that is why he cuts a sullen figure when we concede goals in europe. he was really up for it at the start but saw what clowns he had behind him and thought, whats the point?
we will need a miracle to go through, a miracle. in my book, with our defence as it is, 2-0 is a miracle. if arsenal can keep a clean sheet it might just lead to world peace or something of those proportions, thats how much the seismic shock would be felt around the world. everyone important figure in world politics would re-assess his outlook if we won 2-0.
February 23rd, 2005 at 6:53 am
The worst thing is that Bayern were no better than moderate - solid in defence and quick to take their chances when we gave the ball away and gifted silly goals. Us? We created nothing, and the sad truth is we rarely do in this comp. (Inter and Roma away are the only recent occasions I can think of when our game matched our talents.) I’m fed up with the ostrich approach - Wenger’s? - which sees every CL performance as no more than an unfortunate glitch, after which we’ll return to our normal winning ways. What winning ways?
I agree belief is the key - but not ours, the fans’. It’s the players’ lack of belief that’s the problem. Faced with a decent defence (which is pretty much a given in the CL) our attack seems simply to wilt. And this must be related, at least in part, to their lack of confidence in the back five. As lots of people have been saying since the summer, we’ve cut corners and economised on defenders for years. OK, to have bought the excellent Essien, say, in January might have been extravagent since he’s cup-tied, though given his youth, versatility and scoring ability, it could have been worth it so as to give him time to bed in ready for next year. But, no, building from the back has never been our priority. This has to change. Not simply to ensure that we don’t give away goals - though, God knows, that would be helpful - but so as to restore confidence and heart to the attack. Fine to say we have the best attacking talent in the world - sure we do - but against CL opposition, year in year out, they haven’t performed.
Can we turn it around in a fortnight? In theory (though Sol is unlikely to be fit by then and Edu’s hamstring is uncertain) and obviously from the money and confidence point of view we need to go as far as we can. But beating Bayern isn’t really the point, is it? There are more fundamental issues to address if we want to keep our best players and attract new talent next year.
February 23rd, 2005 at 6:55 am
Yes exactly. Sorry didn’t see your post before adding mine
February 23rd, 2005 at 8:28 am
There’s no chance of going though now. 2-0 doesn’t look like a big result, but Arsenal’s defence is so bad it only keeps 1 clean sheet in every 4 games. Therefore, it is inevitable that Bayern will score at Highbury, and Arsenal can forget winning 4-1.
I am beggining to lose faith in Wenger. I don’t think he is capable of winning the Champions League. He is tactically flawed, there’s no absolutely not doubt about it. A superb coach in England, but very average in Europe.
He doesn’t seem to think that set pieces are important, either for or against. What exactly is he doing on the training ground? He doesn’t seem to be able to make players ‘believe’ in the big matches. Arsenal nearly always fail against top opposition. Do they have enough faith in Wenger anymore?
For Wenger to talk about believeing in our defence is clearly ridiculous. Why can’t he see that certain players are useless at the top level? THEY WILL NOT IMPROVE! Wenger is always “waiting” for certain players to perform, when he must realise they will never perform.
Lauren, Cygan, Lehmann, Almunia all have to be relegated to the reserves or sold. Toure needs a rest and should be on the bench.
Wenger has a lot of buying to do, all over the squad. When are we going to see some urgency? We need 5 or 6 quality signings at least. He allegedly has a big purse in the summer, but I would advocate selling Vieira and maybe even Cole to add to his kitty. Maybe even reyes too.
Arsenal are now on the decline. They will not challenge for anything unless Wenger makes massive signings in the summer. No more cheap buys, we need proven quality - pure and simple. And if some big name failures need to be shown the door, so be it.
February 23rd, 2005 at 8:50 am
good points. especially in acknowledging the fact that,despite wenger’s comments that everyone turns up at our matches in europe because of our style, we are in fact comparable to watching paint dry in this competition.
surprised wenger was so shocked and taken aback by performance. every intelligent arsenal saw it coming a mile off.
February 23rd, 2005 at 8:50 am
Gooners, please. Arsene isn’t out there on the pitch defending set-pieces, so why blame him? It’s not rocket science! It just requires basic qualities missing in the bulk of our reserve back four and a half.
If Wenger made a major mistake, it was as has been stated in another post: gambling on inexperience and unnatural defenders. It was great when we were scoring like mad last season, but this year the tables turned with defense being the order of the league as well as the CL. He kept FAITH in his team. He had a loyalty that we’ve all been mourning in the big money game. He had no reason to bail on a team that had the defensive record they had last season.
And injuries, fear of flying, xenophobic governing bodies, new stadium concerns, fiscal conservatism and undefeated expectations cost you more than goals, but overall confidence as well.
As for our offensive performance, it is indicative of an attitude that is BETRAYING Wenger’s trust in his goal producers. Its no surprise that Freddie had the first and only shot on goal in the first half. As for Henry and Vieira, it was mentioned on another post that they gave up and I agree. Its as if they decide that its not worth their time if goals will be leaked in despite their 90 million pound efforts. Its B*llsh*t.
A game’s momentum can turn on a dime at any point. For the shrugs to show up after 45 minutes is a disgrace. If they score, we should be working extra hard for?if nothing else?pride. Its one thing to score all over a crap Villa and Palace, but quite another to get stuck in when a team like Munich is making you look pants.
By the grace of an almighty power Wenger will hang in there until at least the end of his contract and make the purchases that he needs even if it goes against his good conscious. His faith has been justified and boundless. It should be rewarded with ours.
February 23rd, 2005 at 9:27 am
Nice post scotty. Well needed. I can’t help feeling some players have been overloved…and are no effiminately philosphical about everything.
February 23rd, 2005 at 9:50 am
Great response - very good points indeed. I totally agree with your analysis. The only thing I would counter with, and it’s pickey, is that beating Bayern is the point. And it’s also true that tehre are more fundamental issues to address. They’re not mutually exclusive. Having said that, beating Bayern will not be useful in the long run however if it persuades Wenger that everything after all is ok with the defense. A major clear out/reassessment will be required in the summer.
Additionally, it’s not just the defence but also the defendING that’s a problem - by which I mean over-elaborating in midfield to the extent that we give the ball away too much, and so-so hold up play by the front men/man. Improving these areas is also critical.
February 23rd, 2005 at 10:07 am
3 game suspension for Bergkamp? Garbage. He didn’t do anything deserving of a booking. Makes the beginning of a bad week even worse (after yesterday).
Hopefully, things will fare better against Southhampton.
February 23rd, 2005 at 10:25 am
Right, beating Bayern is important for the confidence boost and tv revenue apart from anything else. I read today that we haven’t ever won a game in the knock-out stages . . . actually that’s wrong: we beat Celta away last year, but it’s true that we’ve rarely won, let alone convincingly, and never got beyond the last 16. Groan.
February 23rd, 2005 at 11:25 am
I like the attitude Dave.
Once I’ve recovered sufficiently from the trip to Munich I’ll write something, but right now I’m angry, fed-up and with a huge sense of frustration about the days events and I don’t just mean the game.
KEEP THE FAITH
February 23rd, 2005 at 11:51 am
You’re oozing positivity is fantastic.
I hope you’re not at the match… if you have tickets, give them to someone who believes we have a chance.
Its not that difficult to think we can win a match by 2 goals.
February 23rd, 2005 at 11:53 am
A MIRACLE?
thats a bit much…
See you in the next round…
We ARE going to overturn a 2 goal lead.
Its not really that difficult.
February 23rd, 2005 at 11:54 am
Ridiculous post.
No, we are NOT on the decline. A season with too many injuries to key players.
2 goal deficit is NOT too much to ask.
Can be done. I think it WILL be done.
February 23rd, 2005 at 11:59 am
The over-reaction is as expected.
ALL GLOOM… ALL DOOM.
Its a freaking 2 GOAL DEFICIT.
We are AT HOME.
There is definitely a chance for us to overcome.
We simply need a good start and a solid game from our best players.
When you all try to jump back on the bandwagon… I will personally help you back up.
The goal was big. It meant ALOT. One goal in the first half and we suddenly are 1 goal away from advancing.
No belief in this team… I think they’ll show you ALL.
February 23rd, 2005 at 12:29 pm
I appreciate the sentiment, but where is this miraculous 2-0 victory supposed to come from? Your head is in the clouds.
Historically, Arsenal have fallen like a lame horse in the Champions League every single time, there is no way we will get through the game with Bayern unscathed.
Even if Campbell plays, which now seems unlikely, we are still conceding in 3 out of every 4 matches this season.
What price we can keep out Bayern Munich when we have already conceded 3 goals at home to Middlesbro, 2 to Chelsea, 4 to United, as well as goals to class acts such as Norwich, Bolton, Southampton, WBA. Man City, Crystal Palace & Sheff Utd. Mix with that the old Wenger magic of sending a team out that is chronically lacking in confidence in the Champions League and features defenders that quite simply can’t defend, FULL STOP.
No more day dreams. We’ve been day dreaming in the Champions League for 7 years. There is clearly something wrong with Wenger’s management at the very highest level - Europe!
You can stick your head in the sand, but it can be ignored no longer. Even if Arsenal pulled off a miracle, the idea of winning the competition is preposterous with the squad we have.
I’d love to eat my words, but unfortunately it’s roll on the summer and lets see what Wenger can do about all this.
February 23rd, 2005 at 12:31 pm
Your head is in the clouds.
February 23rd, 2005 at 1:14 pm
So what your saying is you want Wenger out?
That is what I am reading… unless you are happy with us NOT winning in Europe.
You said there is clearly something wrong with Wenger’s management at the very highest level.
I don’t want Wenger out.
I realize that there are injury issues.
If Sol and Ash are in the game, and Gilberto is playing … we are a different team defensively.
Thats not head in the clouds or sand. Thats fact.
With Sol and Ash… and Gilberto… we had the best defensive team in the league last season. Thats fact.
Thats with the SAME defenders. SAME goalie. SAME coach. Thats fact.
I don’t dwell on the negativity…
to quote a Boston Celtics coach…
the negativity on this site SUCKS! It STINKS! It makes the best website hard to read.
I won’t give in to the negativity. I still believe we have a chance. 2 goals is not the end of the world.
Its quite apparent we can play alot better than we did on Tuesday. You believe we can’t. I believe we WILL. Time will tell.
February 23rd, 2005 at 1:47 pm
This isn’t a rare glitch that no one could have predicted. Every year we limp through the group stage and then go out in the next round or the quarters. If we were a tiny club like - oh I don’t know - Bruges then even to get through the group would be a considerable achievement. But we’re not Bruges. Every August we - me included- believe that we might, just, if luck is with us, win the whole thing. And every year we perform pretty poorly in 80 percent of our games.
I was upset when Wenger said he was disturbed at how bad we were yesterday because, to me, that kind of performance is almost our norm.
I don’t wish a crushing defeat on us in a fortnight - how could I when we need the revenue apart from anything else? - but I do feel, and have said this many times during the last couple of years, that something is fundamentally wrong with our CL games and we need to address and remedy that fact. As someone else remarked today, we’ll probably all be saying the same thing next year, and five years from now, and Stag will be bravely telling us that everything is fine and dandy with our strategies (signing, training, playing) and we’ll be lifting the trophies in May.
Stag, we may thrash Bayern - they aren’t nearly as good as they look on paper - we may keep a clean sheet in that game and the future ones, but a cool look back over the past five years doesn’t support that hope.
Oh, and on home games: we do worse at home in the CL. (All three of our superlative victories have been away. Unless you want to count the hapless Rosenborg in December . . . ) Don’t know why but I suspect they are inhibited by the pressure at Highbury.
February 23rd, 2005 at 2:23 pm
The above comment is mine. Actually I agree with you Stag that the discussion is upsetting and pointless - for you because you value optimism, for me because I feel frustrated that nothing ever seems to change. I remember saying similar things after some dismal performance in the group stage and you replied, ‘Are seriously saying we won’t go through the group?’ To which I said, ‘No I’m sure we’ll stumble through, we always do, and this year our group is exceptionally easy, but I expect us to stumble out in the next round or the quarters.’ I still think that. I still think there’s something seriously wrong with us in this comp - we’re spooked by it - and I don’t just mean the defence: the problem goes deeper and Wenger needs to find out what it is. And no, I’m not saying I want him to leave. I admire him enormously, but I see no sign that things are going to improve so, unless there’s some radical change, I’m pretty much resigned to long-term CL disappointment.
February 23rd, 2005 at 2:42 pm
Get a grip Stag, your positivity is not going to help Arsenal win against Bayern Munich. We are negative and ciritical for a very good reason - as far as the Champions League is concerned “positivity” now equals “naive stupidity”.
Nobody has suggested Arsene Wenger should leave. Personally, I believe that there are coaches out their that would equip us better in the Champions League, but it would be a massive gamble to sack Wenger when he has weaved miracles at Arsenal. And it’s certainly not a gamble I’d be prepared to back.
February 23rd, 2005 at 2:51 pm
Winning 2-0 at Highbury is certainly possible even if unlikely given our current form. But this does not change the fact that we are short a World class defender and Goalkeeper and that we will need them for us to realistically win in Europe.
Come on Arsenal please prove us wrong!
February 23rd, 2005 at 2:54 pm
By reading your comments… you say Wenger can’t win in Europe. So if this is true, and your ambitions for the team are winning the CL… then Wenger has to go. By what you typed… thats the logical conclusion.
Please, name a better coach to equip us to win the Champions League. Give me a coach that you would rather have leading this team.
No, MY positivity is not going to help Arsenal. Neither is your negativity. You can call me naive or stupid. I really don’t mind or care. If we over-turn a 2 goal deficit… we’ll see who is what.
I don’t over-react to a loss. Thats the classic trap everyone loves to fall into. A team is NEVER as GOOD as their last game, nor are they EVER as BAD.
February 23rd, 2005 at 2:54 pm
we’ll see in a fortnight… whose head is where!
February 23rd, 2005 at 3:41 pm
The Rosenborg encounter was because I personally was in attendence with the other Arsenal Americans!
So, perhaps we can take up a collection, send us all back over for the return match…. and alas, a 5-1 win will ensue.
Sounds like a good plan!
February 23rd, 2005 at 6:34 pm
Stag133
If BM scores one goal against us, we will need to score 4 goals to get thru. It is not just a simple math of 2-0 as you pointed out. With Campbell not likely to start and Edu iffy, there isn’t much defensive steel to counter BM. With Ballack back as well, we will have our hands full - especially from set-pieces.
I really wish all the doom-sayers here are wrong and that you are right. Really!! But looking at things objectively, the odds are truly stacked against us.
February 23rd, 2005 at 8:45 pm
I hope that you are right Stag about this 2-0. I agree that 2-0 is not the end of the world to achieve. With our defence though it will take a total and concentrated effort from all 11 players and that would be really nice to see! It can be done!