So we’ve had a few days since the FA Cup victory, (yes, it was a WIN, regardless of how some folks make it out to be)… I figure thats long enough to let things settle before we stir the Arsenal pot a bit and hypothesize about our future.
Ronaldinho’s dream is to bring Henry to Barca!
Thats the headline I just read on Soccernet. Thats just great Ronnie. I have a dream that we bring you to Arsenal. Barca lost prematurely in the CL!
If folks actually believe that we will NEVER win the Champion’s League… that we don’t have a good chance to do so in the next few years… then you know what, I say sell Henry to Barcelona for 50 Million Pounds!
Now whhhhhhhhhhhoa.
I personally do not advocate this. We are not a selling team, and I think we are VERY CLOSE to Champion’s League success, or at least have the potential to win it next year.
If we don’t have any chance of winning Europe, then we need to remake the team in a mold that CAN do so. We have won FA Cups, the league… but not alot in Europe. If we can’t win with this cast of characters, then clean house. If we can bring in a few KEY players and have a good run at this thing over the next few years, then lets do it.
So you say selling Henry is NOT the answer to our problems in Europe? You are damned straight about that. So perhaps you think its Wenger that’s holding us back??!! If you feel we don’t have a chance in Europe, then please tell me WHY, and WHAT to do to fix it. Get SERIOUS. We aren’t sacking Wenger…. I’d say its more likely we sold Henry than Arsene leaving. I’m of the idea that the manager is far more important than any one player.
Let’s have at it with some ideas, if you are one of the fellowship of the miserable… and believe we can’t win the Champion’s League. If you think that way, explain to me why we shouldn’t sell Henry and start over on a team that CAN win it.
33 Responses to “Let’s Stir the Pot…”
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May 26th, 2005 at 4:19 pm
There is no “formula” in winning the CL. Think Chelsea, they got EVERYTHING…
People thought we need to buy more top players to improve the depth of the squad? What about Cheslea? They got a talented and deep squad, and plenty of cash. They didn’t win it.
People thought we need a manager with a great tactical sense to outfox the Euro oppositions? What about Chelsea? They got Mourinho, the self-proclaimed special one, and a tactical expert by some expert analysts. They didn’t win it.
A more tactical approach like 4-5-1, 4-4-3, Diamond Formation instead of 4-4-2? Chelsea got it all. They still didn’t win it.
As far as I’m concerned, we can make a wholesale change, we can sack our manager, we can go on and mortagage away our new stadium and bring in Ronaldinho, Buffon, Gerrard… There is still no guarantee we can win it.
I love our motto last season - One Game By a Time. Strangely no one mentioned it this season. I believe the right approach into a new season is NOT to expect win what and what. It is to take one game by a time, trying our best and try to win every game we are going to play. The rest will take care of itself.
May 26th, 2005 at 4:20 pm
I saw that too about Ronaldinho wanting Henry to come to Barca. What kind of news story is that? Of course any player on any team would want Henry. What idiot member of the media decides to ask a question like that?
Gee, why would anyone want a player that would score 20-25 goals per seaon? ……..idiots…
May 26th, 2005 at 4:20 pm
sorry, accidentially went anonymously!
May 26th, 2005 at 4:44 pm
My dream is to see more Arsenal ’s fans in a winning mind frame.
Liverpool greatest asset has been their fans.
The only thing I dislike about Arsenal is about the fans.
They can’t take any pride of the achievement of the team.
Compared to other succesfull teams our fans let themselves down in disbelief any time the team is not doing as expected.
The fans even give up before the players on the pitch.
If that does not change we are not going to win the CL.
We’ve got every thing to win expect the belief and the support of fans.
PS : Henry deserves more than respect than that. He think he’s not a a merchandise and that’s what he disliked in Italy.
He does not want to move. Where the point in debating on the amount of money ?
I don’t support ARsenal for money. A big club can’t sell a player like Henry.
He’s the kind of player you don’t find anywhere.
Only an idiot can sell the best player in the wold for the sake of money because of of stupid tactical views.
May 26th, 2005 at 4:57 pm
No one is safe at Arsenal be it Wenger, Henry or some members of the board.
You read it here first.
Back to your question, there is no formula when it comes to football but self belief. We have a team that can win the CL as A. Cole said but you need luck, tactics and ideas when your back are against the wall.
May 26th, 2005 at 4:59 pm
I agree with you whole-heartedly on a number of our fans being miserable about the team almost ALL the time, regardless of what happens on the pitch.
While fans support might have helped Liverpool a bit, without that first goal early in the 2nd half, their so called “belief” never happens. If there is hope, anything can happen.
We have everything to win. I think they players KNOW they are capable. The support of the fans? Not sure that will occur. Don’t think we need it to win the CL… a good draw, a good run of play, and a bit of luck… we have the talent to win it…
If Liverpool has the talent, we have more than enough… because we are BETTER than them AND more talented.
May 26th, 2005 at 5:01 pm
Heeeeeeeey.
You agree that we have a team that can win the CL. Making progress. We do have the team, just need a bit of depth and as U say, luck and a willingness to change tactics when necessary…
May 26th, 2005 at 5:01 pm
by the way… Wenger and Henry are about as safe as ANYONE can get.
May 26th, 2005 at 5:08 pm
Hi all! First post here.
IMO, selling Henry is not the answer. We finished second in the league, secured a group stage for next year’s CL, scored the most goals in the league, and in any other season, probably would have finished top of the table if it weren’t for an unbelievable year for the Blues. Oh ya, we also won the FA Cup. Let’s be clear here- a CL victory is not the only determing factor in a clubs overall success. That’s my answer to your question.
That being said, your post brings up an interesting thought in my mind. Maybe the CL should be more important to the club than Wenger makes it out to be in his interviews. Maybe he speaks that way because he’s a bit of a whiner. But, it shouldn’t be downplayed. Why? Simply because it’s what’s next. Premiership titles… check. FA Cups… check. THe CL is simply, what is next on the list.
Selling Henry… right now… while he’s in his prime??? You’ve got to be kidding me… right?
May 26th, 2005 at 5:15 pm
YES, I am kidding you.
I wouldn’t sell Thierry for ANY amount.
The point is, there are folks on here that think we CAN’T WIN THE CHAMPIONS LEAGUE with the current team.(or manager).
If that is the case, then sell… sack…. whatever it takes to get to the next step.
I agree, CL is the next thing on the list…
The fact that we stomped on Liverpool a few weeks ago 3-1… and they lifted the cup, despite finishing 5th in the EPL… lets you know that we need tweaking and luck and a bit more depth… and we could certainly walk away with the CL trophy in the next few years.
May 26th, 2005 at 5:15 pm
and another thing…
I’m no Arsene Wenger, but it seems to me that, as beautiful a game the Gunners are capable of playing… and it can be damn beautiful, they need other weapons in their… arsenal, as it were. (Sorry for the pun.)
Other teams use their heads… literally. I think it’d be nice to at least threaten teams with corners and indirects, instead of whatever it is we do.
like I said… I’m no Arsene Wenger but….
May 26th, 2005 at 5:25 pm
I believe it can be done, and that it will be done… soon. But I don’t think the CL should be the only consideration in buying or selling players.
I think Europe requires more than a one-dimensional approach to scoring goals. CL football is nothing like English football. Teams know that if they give us space, they’re dead. They also know that our defense was a bit shaky at times. So, they pack it in tight and then counter in hopes of stealing a goal. Munich did it beautifully. They did 3 times beautifully, in fact.
And just because we beat Pool doesn’t mean that we would’ve beaten Milan the way they did last night. I don’t think it works that way in sports. We draw twice vs. Chelsea. Chelsea twice beat United. Ergo… we… LOSE twice to United??? See what I mean.
May 26th, 2005 at 5:32 pm
The fact that we SPANKED Liverpool, and drew with Chelsea twice, beat United in the FA Cup, beat PSV, beat Munich…. means we can play with and beat anyone…
it is in response to the idea that we can’t beat good/big teams… thats non-sense.
May 26th, 2005 at 5:33 pm
You are correct in my opinion.
That means bringing in a few players to add to the “arsenal” of talent we have. Someone that can head in a goal would be nice.
But we are NOT far away from being able to win the CL.
May 26th, 2005 at 6:57 pm
Ah the Champions League, the ever persistent sword over Arsenal’s head. Personally, I don’t care if we have not won the CL so far. Could we have won it last year (2004)? Sure we could have. What about this year? Maybe.
Basically, I am just tired over all the champs league hype. Man U won it back in 1999 and they were LUCKY to have won it. They never beat Bayern or Barca in their group games, and only got through because they whipped Brondby. Getting by Inter Milan was not a very difficult feat in the next round. Why? As talented as Inter were(or are), they are their own worst enemy. Then that semi-final against Juve. Man U should have lost the first leg but got lucky. In the second leg, sure they made a good comeback.
But other than winning the cup, what have they done in other years? They have looked so pathetic most of the time. Yet I have had to endure Man U fans constantly telling me that their team is fit for the CL and Arsenal only for the UEFA Cup. One damn Cup and bragging rights for ever.
Now with Liverpool’s win, all the Canadian papers over here are going crazy with it. This and that.
I know one thing, if Arsenal does win the CL, the media will not make a big deal out of it. In fact, they will say that unless Arsenal wins the CL in back to back years, it will be only considered a fluke win. Yet they would never say such things about Man U or Liverpool.
I have even read that Henry won’t be given a World Player or Euro Player award unless he proves himself by winning the CL with Arsenal. Utter nonsense! Will they take back Ronaldinho’s or Shevchenko’s award now that both of their teams failed in the CL this year?
I enjoy watching my team on the weekends (when I get a chance). That is the beauty of the EPL. The Champs League is a great tournament but I see it as a mid-week buffer. It does hurt when Arsenal stumble to teams they should be running circles around, but if Arsenal fail in the EPL, it’s far worse.
If UEFA decide to create a new happenning tournament in upcoming years which is a hybrid mix of CL and UEFA Cup, would we be considered a bad team if we didn’t win it?
The point is Arsenal are a great team to watch when they are in full flight. In Europe, in order to win, one needs to be play a bit more defensive. If Arsenal change their tactics and win the Cup, Yes I would be happy. But I would still prefer that they keep winning in the EPL week in, week out playing the style that Wenger has created.
May 26th, 2005 at 10:36 pm
Selling Henry would only hurt this team. So much of our attack goes through Thierry Henry - Whether it’s too much is another debate for another day - hte fact is Thierry Henry is the Focal point of the best attack in European football. Last Saturday only proved how true this is, both in England and given the opponent(yes, ManU actually IS Champions League quality), in Europe. Our problem is as brilliant as our attack is, it is incomplete and lacks versatility going forward, and teams as anonymous as West Brom and Southampton can hold us, not becaiuse they are brilliant defenders. No, it’s not brilliance but simplicity that undoes us. Almost EVERY one of our attackers can beat a single defender or two even with the ball at his feet or simply beat them for pace off-the-ball, but even Henry has trouble beating four defenders, especially when four or five more are choking off the supporting runs or cutting out the balls for those runners. You can’t pass or walk the ball into the goal through ten men! Or a highly organized defence as we face commonly in Champions League play. Since this an American board I feel comfortable using as basketball analogy. We have a buncjh of athletes who like to take the ball to the hoop, and run up and down the floor forty minutes. Our opponents play zone all night, forcing cutting off the drives to the basket and slowing the gamnme down,keeping close so they can have a chance to win late. How do you force them out of the zone today? You put a ZONE-BUSTER on the floor, an out side shooter they have to come out to stop scoring. As soon as one defender is out of position, every defender is out of position, and the lanes to the basket open up again. And when they have to play man-to-man, see you later…
The same applies in football. Say you can play crosses in aand have a striker who will meet them regularly and threaten to score and actually score some.. The central defenders instead of being able to sit deep, and more importantly on either side of the box to anchor either side of the box, have to move back toward one another and wait to protect against the cross, which means the other defenders have to cheat toward them,whether its the wing backs or the extra men supporting the defence in the box.This helps re-create the openings, Henry, Pires, Reyes, Freddie, Ashley, Robin and Denis play or pass through. And even if it doesn’t always do so immediately the goals from crosses or corners a striler like Trezeguet Adriano Kluivert, or even Jan Koller if available would dash opponents hopes to defend deep and make them come out and chase the game - the zone busted again and Arsenal run riot. Sounds like a plan to me…
May 27th, 2005 at 4:58 am
Guys, I desperately wan’t us do well in CL. But lets face it. I don’t think we will win the CL based on our current mentality. As a team we don’t have the belief (rightly highlighted by ScottyUS), the guts and the fighting spirit. There’s no one showing these attributes in our team now.
Look at the Bayern game at home. Need to win by 2 goals and we were at the backfoot right from the word go. Where was the committment, the desire, the fight-back? At times it looked like Bayern needed 2 goals to get through. And after the match, an unbelievable 3 shots on target and another off-target 4 attempts. Bayern had 10 corners to our 4. That said it all. We went down without a whimper.
May 27th, 2005 at 5:46 am
No one with belief or fighting spirit? Rubbish. Senderos has.
May 27th, 2005 at 7:05 am
Ridiculous.
No one showing belief guts fighting-spirit?
Why would ANYONE support a team that has none of the above attributes??
Belief… is as good as your next day’s starting pitcher! All you need is a solid win… a solid half of football, to start believing… we have plenty of fighting spirit, we fought United all the way thru. By the way, we WON the FA Cup on spirit alone.
May 27th, 2005 at 7:54 am
You need it a lot of things to win a cup.
We should all try to do what we can and all what we can in believing we can. That’s what we can do.
That’s what I can do.
The draw, the climate, the injuries there’s a lot of things out of control so you need to be really faithfull in your team in any case.
A game’s not over until the last second.
May 27th, 2005 at 7:57 am
There’s no depth in Liverpool’s squad but they won the CL.
May 27th, 2005 at 8:05 am
I think there is alot of depth there at certain positions, and striker is certainly one of them.
May 27th, 2005 at 8:53 am
Welcome to the site, dc_gooner!
I just wanted to make a comment regarding CL vs. English football. I think, especially with the advent of Chelsea’s defensive form, that English football is going to start looking a LOT like CL football. Back in the day under Graham, The Arsenal played the same way and won things without the flashy brilliance of other teams. What inevitably happens is that, by the end of the season?say 7-8 games to go?the team is nearly destroyed from rushing for every ball and closing teams down. Of course, this is when the CL knock out rounds start filtering in. Depth and not neccessarily talent, therefore, is how I think the table and trophy hunts are going to start evening out. Chelsea had the depth AND the talent to play a defensive mentality throughout the 38 games and eventually score goals. Liverpool, with their thinning squad in comparison to Chelsea, could only do it in the CL, allowing their weakness to be exposed in the League.
My point is, I think we’re going to see a lot more ugly games in the League next year. Especially against us. In fact, it could end up that the majority of goals from the mid to bottom half of the table teams will be either a) off the break, b) set pieces, or c) from the spot. Teams with less money are learning how to hang with the bigger clubs (Everton!) and big clubs with lots of depth and that something extra that $ affords are learning how to go unbeaten. End result=boring.
The Arsenal try and take their game to Europe and have failed every time. Its not in the nature of our players to sit back. We can do it and have proven it in the FA Cup this year, but Wenger has picked and groomed his side to always go forward. Even Cole and Lauren are often found hustling back from midfield when the long ball inevitably comes after being lost up field. In the end, attacking football will go the way of the Dodo. And teams who still believe in it and do it well will likely find themselves hovering just short of their goals year after year.
I just hope our club isn’t forced down the same road, but I fear we’ll have no choice…unless we can produce inch perfect, one touch, 100 mph football all over Europe, through all kinds weather, on all kinds of pitches, with as few injuries to big players as possible. Can we do it? I think so. But like our undefeated campaign, it will require a ton of luck, be extremely challenging, and be even more difficult to do back to back.
One day we may all look back at our undefeated season and appreciate it all over again in a new light considering the kind of football we played at the time.
May 27th, 2005 at 8:58 am
Its rather astonishing to think that our best header of the ball is also one of our shortest players: Freddie. In fact, most of our midfield are a bit on the midgety side. Maybe a big, powerful striker with a good head is on Arsene’s wish list. If not, I’m willing to bet Sendy gets a few next season. But you’re spot on about that. We need some set-piece and wide options. A few more goals this season from these areas could have made the difference. When we’re not getting penetration, we should be able to send wingers deep to maybe win a corner. When that happens now, its basically a time killer and not much else.
May 27th, 2005 at 8:58 am
I disagree that the CL is just another tournament that is all about hype. I think it markets itself quite well on its own.
The media will make a big deal of it when we win. I’m guessing most reports will read, “Finally!”, but it will be a big deal.
Arsenal have underachieved in the trounament and that’s that. If it’s not an important tournament, why do all Eurpean footballers dream of winning it?
I agree that the League is more important, but I feel that lots of people try to downplay the CL (Wenger included) because we don’t do well in it. What’s the alternative? Send a Carling Cup lineup to face the best Erope has to offer?
If winning in Europe requires a more defensive tactic, then so be it. You can’t rely solely on scoring more than your opponents. Look where it got us this year.
Defense wins championships.
May 27th, 2005 at 9:03 am
I agree. The inch perfect touches needed to consistently score throughout the year the way we do are not always going to happen for a variety of factors, pitch conditions and fitness conditions being only two of them.
Will Bentley be our man to find a new, air-loving, striker in the box? With this opening things up for the our boys who love to play on the floor, we’ll be unstoppable.
May 27th, 2005 at 9:10 am
Thanks for the welcome!
I love watching one-touch football. I love the way our offense moves up and down and across the pitch. It’s a beautiful thing that other clubs try to emulate.
But if ugly football is coming to an English pitch near you… let it come. Teams this year put 5 across the midfield to try and stop us. Some did, and some didn’t. We can’t stop teams from doing what they’re going to do. But, I say it is our responsibility, as a one of the best, to overcome it. Although I love to see a goal develop from the back, a long ball, a set piece, or one from the spot are all still a part of this game. Teams play to their strengths.
Your point on depth is the key. It is one of the excuses we had this year. Injuries killed us, but that’s football.
At the end of the day, I don’t think we’ll be forced down that road. Given a full squad, Wenger won’t resort to that style of football. If he does, he’s a hypocrit.
May 27th, 2005 at 9:13 am
Hence the rumors of Beckham coming in, but then we still would need someone on the receiving end.
BTW…I don’t think, and wouldn’t want Beckham, to come.
May 27th, 2005 at 9:15 am
I think I get what you’re saying. What often translates as belief on the pitch is the charge at defenders and the hustle to create anything and everything that you can. The Arsenal play a fluid game that, once its broken up for too long, run out of options. Its not that they don’t have the desire to fight, its just that they don’t have the weapons to do much of anything else.
We’ve on occasion produced flukey, ugly, bundled goals to save points. But not often in big games. Sol’s 30 yarder against Pompey (I think), Pires’ header to equalize against Chelsea in the semi’s, Kolo’s last gasp poke to keep us in it against Bayern?these things do happen, but are often left too late on. Tactics are an issue here, as well. Wenger’s apparent unwillingness to shift gears when things are getting stale keeps opponents in the game. Hey, he’s a genius and I’m a hack, but this “long term eventuality” plan he’s got works well over 38 games but not so much in the CL. Its always experience, caution, frugality and staying the course with Arsene. Of course, you have to have the right players on the pitch to mix it up.
We’re getting there, I think. And I think Wenger knows that, once the defensive is stifling enough, we will wear down opponents and that through ball will happen. You only need one sequence to find the net to win a lot of times. As frustrating as that can be for us watching at home or at the ground who want our team to charge and barge, its our style.
May 27th, 2005 at 10:28 am
Well…
Did Arsene not defy what he always does against United? Senderos played over Sol.
Cesc started… 4-5-1 formation… asked the players to play a defensive mode.
We might not have liked what we saw out there, but: A) He adapted his tactics
B) We won the match
It will all be solved on offense when we sign Nic Anelka!
May 27th, 2005 at 10:58 am
Two things are facts for me:
1-Arsene played a 4-5-1 with Dennis alone up front.
2-We won the match.
However, I’m just incapable of believing that Arsene’s tactics won us that match. I think they did the following:
1-Gave United increasing confidence in going forward.
2-Allowed us to absorb the pressure by packing the midfield and dropping back.
3-Forced Lehmann to work all day and therefore his instincts were astute enough to block Scholes’ shot.
I don’t think things went according to plan, but with good fortune, some top class defending and cool heads at the spot we came out on top.
May 27th, 2005 at 11:11 am
I don’t disagree with a word you said…
but Wenger DID change tactics from the norm. That, perhaps, is a start!
May 27th, 2005 at 11:51 am
Very true!