American Brothers (and Sisters),
Having been at THOF tonight for the Fulham game, believe me it was rarely comfortable and only when the third goal went in could we start to relax. Continuing the debate on JR14, I have been a big fan of his since his arrival and yes he does over elaborate at times but he has what it takes and his second half performance tonight was exceptional. What I cannot fathom out though is the lack of communication and appreciation between JR9 and TH14. Watch the next game closely and you’ll see TH14 clap, encourage and motivate everybody on the pitch EXCEPT JR9! All he ever does is shrug his shoulders if JR9 does not burst the net or provide the inch perfect pass. I can only assume that this goes back to the alleged racist comments aimed at TH14 by the Spanish manager to JR9. Perhaps TH14 feels JR9 didn’t support him enough? Who know’s. I’d be interested in anyone’s thoughts as it’s bugging me!!!
NorthBank
59 Responses to “THE GULF WAR - BETWEEN OUR TWO GLADIATORS”
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August 26th, 2005 at 2:40 pm
Could be the DB10 syndrome. After partnering and being served by the master, will anyone else ever measure up? Fortunately others need not maintain such standards for him.
I’d like to think that Henry was able to rise above the Aragones incident, especially on the pitch, and if there was a problem Wenger would have sorted it out. The two just have no natural chemistry, as their personalities appear to be night and day. Grinny, clumsy, Spanish boy meets Aloof, suave, French man. Cats and dogs.
Also, they tend to like the same places on the pitch. Henry’s fault there. Get more central, Thierry and stop worrying about setting others up. Not doing much of it anymore, anyway.
August 26th, 2005 at 3:55 pm
TH14 has just taken over as captain and really is learning as he goes. He will be criticized by many until he shows he’s a true leader on the pitch.
JAR9 has always seemed to be distant from the rest of the players. Maybe it’s his culture or difficulty with the English language. I met him 2 seasons ago briefly and he didn’t speak a word of English. Maybe this is still an issue.
I don’t think that TH14 holds anything against him for the issue in Spain. Maybe TH14 thinks he can do more out there and is dissappointed in his play. Some times players just don’t get along. I’ve played on teams where I can’t stand certain teammates and I think I was tougher on them. I still encouraged on as they played well.
Personally I don’t see JAR9 being here after this year. I just have a feeling he will be sold back to Spain. Arsenal really can’t afford to get rid of him, but I just don’t see him being here long term. I hope I’m wrong.
August 26th, 2005 at 3:56 pm
actually almost since the start this has been true. from the beginning couple of games and the fanfare for JAR when he scored against chelsea, TH14 has moaned and groaned and turned his back to the young lad. it is like jose wants to be loved by him, but can never do anything right. JAR does dribble a lot, does try things that don’t come off, and maybe TH14 KNOWS he himself is the superstar and JAR should stop showboating. when JAR plays badly he sucks because of this. when he plays well he is a superstud!
i noticed that for the first time though TH14 actually hugged jose and almost meant it because of that superb ball he played, left to right for the captain’s goal.
don’t know what it will take, but it sure supports jose’s attitude of being ‘left out of the dressing room banter”.
nothing is ever perfect, but this is noticeable and a shame, and now TH is captain, may be worse for jose.
c
August 26th, 2005 at 4:03 pm
I cant imagine that to be the case at all. I mean that both Henry and Reyes are proffessionals, and their overriding interest is in winning games, not in sulking over things that the Spanish coach said to Reyes.
Even kids in school dont bring the grudges of the classroom onto the pitch when they have a kick about at lunch. I certainly cant professionals like these two doing it.
August 26th, 2005 at 4:07 pm
In a perfect world maybe, but then you’d think that nowadays “professionals” like Aragones wouldn’t be saying the things he did.
August 26th, 2005 at 5:26 pm
I posted this recently, but it fits this question perfectly, so I’m copying it over.
“Way off thread here, but did anyone else see this article:
http://217.204.41.132/cgi/NGoto/2/107132453?1206
The statistic in the box at the bottom regarding Reyes and assists *REALLY* opened my eyes! I was shocked. Anybody else?”
August 26th, 2005 at 6:39 pm
Yeah, especially with all the camera’s turned on and reporters present. However I still cant imagine that incident as being a factor in the relationship between the two players. After all that would be like holding Reyes as being guilty by association.
August 26th, 2005 at 6:55 pm
FLORIDAGUNNER,
i agree that the comments by the spanish coach are not what started this, and that henry could trust reyes in what was said and how reyes feels. but having said that, just saying they are professionals and would not be upset over emotional or ego issues is a bit naive. despite what folks have said, i have seen childish ego acts by grown men in sunday football, county football, schoolboy football, university and semi-pro, and it can only get worse occasionally in the pros. this is where man mgmt comes in to deflect and make decisions and read the team on the practice field and dressing rooms. some players hate each other, even sleep with each other’s wives and are great on the pitch together.
some snub each other deliberately as they are moody as hell. shame, but true. and often the more brilliant are the more moody. they know they are the best but want everyone to treat them that way as well. the ego is a tough thing, humility takes a lot of confidence and maturity. that is tough for a young un anyway, whether with fame because of being a famous footballer from the 50’s, or nowadays with fame AND fortune.
dyer and bowyer being the extreme…in whiny voice… “but he wouldn’t pass to me graeme, honest, it’s not fair”…
c
August 26th, 2005 at 7:37 pm
I thinik that what you said is partly true. True sometimes small or big things can create emotional or ego issues for a short time. We see this when Henry glares at another player or when Tony Adams would give a team mate verbal kick up the backside but those instances I think are completely blown out of proportion by onlookers and the media. All they really are, are heat of the moment frustrations that come naturally and is something that is part of a footballers passion to win the game, and not a passionate hatred for his team mate. Even Nicholas Anelka, who was a sulk, I think was unfairly accused of not caring about the team performance, performed well in tandem with the very team mates he accused of not passing the ball to him.
I agree with what you say about the ego being a tough thing and that humility takes maturity. That was what Anelka’s problem was anyway, he was led astray by bad advice by people who played on his ego.
I dont think however that Reyes has any ego issues at all and seems to be a balanced guy.
August 26th, 2005 at 8:11 pm
personally i think it is two different things. adams or any good captain with a passion to win and a glare and a scream is one thing. the balance is leadership. adams will confront head on, no personal issues, just performance issues. he is not one to sulk or ignore.
henry is a totally different beast. i love henry, even love his brilliance paired with moodiness. but it is not blind will to win like tony’s. it is more a sulkiness and a one on one thing with reyes. he does not usually celebrate with reyes, or if he does, it is totally impersonal. his body language is different than with, say, ashley. AC3 plays some passes, or plays them too late, to henry and he will yell at ashley and remonstrate with where he wants the ball, how he wants it played, timing, weight of the ball. with JAR he blanks him, shrugs, dismisses him. it is body language.
just my opinion. but it is not the same as a captain’s encouragement, or even a keown, dixon, winterburn, parlour encouragement. it is a dismissal of him. i think reyes would prefer to be yelled at, told what to do. a la adams, mclintock, dalglish, shearer. to be deliberately blanked is much harder to deal with. makes you feel not a part of the team i would imagine.
i have always been the yeller, the cajoler, etc. but i have seen players blanked continuously and it made them want to leave…
where in florida?
i am down there for business now and again, could coincide with an england or arsenal match and beer!
August 26th, 2005 at 8:27 pm
Winter Park, just a couple of miles north of Orlando.
Where are you?
August 26th, 2005 at 9:03 pm
I agree with you that the incident is a factor anymore. After all, I know Reyes gets some stick in Spain as he’s Romany. (Is that the correct term for ‘gypsy’?) I also hate to think that that **AYE CARUMBA**(censored) Aragones, who only ever won anything with a poxy side like Atletico Madrid, would ever dare take potshots at our Thierry, a World Cup and European Championship winner. I never much rated Spain before, but now I always cheer against them.
August 26th, 2005 at 9:31 pm
I didnt know that Reyes was a Gypsy. How come then he doesnt live in one of those caravan things.
I really dont care about international football, and havent watched any international games for a while. They are just no longer the gold standard in football.
August 26th, 2005 at 9:36 pm
huntsville, alabama, mate. high tech town in the middle of boonies southern banjo country.
travel more to est palm beach, coming up to st pete and sarasota, bradenton.
c
August 26th, 2005 at 9:45 pm
My god, how can you stand it there in Alabama. Last year I drove through Alabama on my way up to Michigan, and in order not to hurt your feelings I will just say that its not my type of place in the least.
August 26th, 2005 at 10:56 pm
There is actually ZERO proof of this at all. To try and say there is an issue between Henry and Reyes is ridiculous.
Just because they aren’t playing grab-ass together on the pitch doesn’t mean they don’t like each other or have animosity between them.
Thats like saying Sol hates Senderos, he took his position. I saw him giving him the evil eye from the bench!
I haven’t ever really noticed any icy stares between Henry and Reyes. They could be close in the locker room for all we know. Why even harp on something we know NOTHING about. Wild speculation at best.
August 27th, 2005 at 12:22 am
Not every gypsy is a pikey.
August 27th, 2005 at 12:24 am
In NorthBank’s defence, he does have a much better vantage point than you or I. And anyway, at least this sort of conversation is much better than the “I think we need to strengthen the squad by signing…” rubbish we’ve been gorging on for ages now.
August 27th, 2005 at 1:33 am
Sorry Stag, but I’ve got to disagree here. Speculation maybe, but I’ve seen too many instances of Henry giving Reyes the cold shoulder to believe there isn’t any merit to the idea that they have issues. And its not the standard, “Why didn’t you pass me the ball?” frustration that Henry normally employs. I don’t think Henry dislikes Reyes to be truthful, I think Henry wants Reyes to know that Henry is the star of Arsenal, not Reyes.
August 27th, 2005 at 2:45 am
Just when the season started and the nasty summer rumours were over, we have to put up with this long wait before the next game. ARGH!!! Yes, That’s how it is — the luck of the fixtures.
Ok, come to think of it, it is not such a long wait. But it feels like it. Partly because a full slate of games are this weekend and Arsenal are not playing.
Could they not have scheduled Arsenal’s game on monday with Liverpool? In the past, not only Arsenal but other EPL teams have played 4 games in one week…
Or do the players need to be released one week prior to internationals?
August 27th, 2005 at 6:32 am
You right, it might be a wild speculation at best but can’t lived in denial about the fact that both guys don’t get on in real life. Watch them on and off the field and you will find out there is no chemistry between them.
Remember Andy Cole and Teddy S.
What the ass spainish coach said will always be on Henry’s mind. Remember the Stand up speak up campaign - His comments explained speaks more than words.
August 27th, 2005 at 6:37 am
These 2 reminds me of Andy Cole and Old Teddy S. These 2 did not get on at United and still don’t.
Players, like me and you are humans - You get piss off with someone at work but for the sake of working together you pretend there is nothing wrong.
August 27th, 2005 at 8:10 am
What’s a Pikey?
August 27th, 2005 at 8:19 am
Ive noticed Henry tends to play very central in alot of our champions league games at highbury and against Bayern Munich it was only when he drifted left and ran at the munich defence that he looked dangerous and created scoring opportunities. Fair enough, it only happened about twice, but Andy Gray made a big song and dance about it. I would rather Henry actually stayed left, if only because he gets a feel for the game when he receives the ball deep. When he’s playing central I think he sometimes goes to sleep and sulks, thus resulting in his strange european performances. His central-ness did pay off though against Munich with the goal in the second half.
I do find it funny that Henry gesticulates with frustration when Reyes and RVP miss-place a pass but when Bergkamp does it he respectfully looks down and soldier’s on. I personally like it when Henry has a go at Reyes, his stupid decision-making really rankles with me.
August 27th, 2005 at 9:30 am
which is why i said the north. it is the foot of the applachian mountains, i prefer it to get cold in the winter, and to be honest it’s all taste isn’t it? i couldn’t bear living in flat, hot florida either. no character at all. if i had to live between mobile and bham, couldn’t do it. but this part of the state has people from around the world, high tech, and the mountains starting.
thanks for the vote of confience.
August 27th, 2005 at 9:38 am
One of the racist stereotypes of the caravan-living, hubcap-stealing, curse-inflicting gypsy. Gypsys are an oppressed ethnic minority in Europe, and they like the Jews of 50 or 100 years ago are just like the rest of the Europeans. Or they would be, if the “natives” would let them.
August 27th, 2005 at 10:41 am
Well thats how it goes in life. Bergkamp has seniority over Henry, and does not have to take it from him. Reyes is a junior and so should have to listen to anything Henry has to say to him.
August 27th, 2005 at 10:50 am
No actually its not.
Us signing a player, or not is relevant.
We are speculating that there is a problem between two players on the team, based on?? Shrugs by Henry?
August 27th, 2005 at 10:53 am
Are you kidding me?
Who the hell would think Reyes is the star of Arsenal? Reyes’ family?
There is ZERO chance of this being the problem. Henry is not worried about Reyes usurping his star status.
Please, tell me about these instances of Henry giving Reyes the cold shoulder.
And… even if he doesn’t like Reyes and vice-versa, its NOT RELEVANT! I don’t like some of my fellow employees, but I want the company to do well… There is no way everybody on the team will like each other… its silly.
August 27th, 2005 at 10:55 am
They don’t have to like each other. Its not important or relevant. Henry has scowled at just about EVERY player on this team, when passes have gone astray, or he hasn’t gotten the ball when he wanted it.
August 27th, 2005 at 10:59 am
I saw Sol Campbell staring across the pitch from the stands at Senderos recently. His eyes had HATRED in them. He is really really pissed off with this kid, because he lost his starting spot in the FA Cup. I don’t remember Sol hugging Senderos after the match. He’s mad at him. I think he’s got a voo-doo doll of Senderos, and he’s sticking pins in it. When they’ve played together, I see Sol yelling at him… I read his lips… he said “YOU AIN’T AS GOOD AS ME, SO GET OVER THERE ON THE RIGHT”…
This is big trouble. What if they don’t like each other? What are we going to do?
August 27th, 2005 at 11:00 am
Based on a consistent viewing of the chemistry between Arsenal players. Remember the game is more than just what the cameras show. And if you don’t like it, don’t read it.
August 27th, 2005 at 11:02 am
As I said these guys are professionals, they dont get into doing things like that. Plus Campbell is injured, so why would he grudge Senderos his place.
August 27th, 2005 at 11:06 am
Now that you mentioned it I remember hearing that work pyka in that movie Snatch, with Vinnie Jones and Brad Pitt.
August 27th, 2005 at 11:08 am
Thats what I’m saying. Henry’s facial expressions are just the manifestation of his passion for the game. Definately not a sign of tensions between the two players.
August 27th, 2005 at 11:13 am
Before Sven took over England, the camp was split between the cliques of Man U and Liverpool players. Lou Macari, without giving a genuine reason, told Richie Moran to cut his dreadlocks, the implication being he didn’t like “black” hairstyles. The manager of Spain calls a brilliant French striker a “black **AYE CARUMBA**(censored).” Jermaine Pennant wraps his car around a pole. Ray Parlour, Niall Quinn, Tony Adams all partied very, very hard. We all know now what was going on in Big Tone’s life at that time. Bowyer and Dyer engage in a fist-fight in the middle of a game. Players going “on strike,” despite being one year into a five year contract, demanding they be transferred to a “big club.”
August 27th, 2005 at 11:15 am
Now that I agree with. I don’t think Henry and Reyes dislike each other. I’m just saying that first it is not an inconceivable notion, and that NorthBankGunner may have a different insight into the situation, given we mugs watch games on the television and he’s a Highbury regular.
August 27th, 2005 at 11:20 am
Yeah Pitt was supposed to be playing a pikey there. Haha actually, the only reason for that was because apparently Pitt’s Irish accent was so poor they had to change the script and make his horrible rendition work.
August 27th, 2005 at 11:22 am
SACHING,
I sympathise with your frustrations about this stupid two week break for internationals.
I know that a lot of people will not agree with me on this but I have been thinking for some time that maybe its high time that UEFA did away with international friendlies and tournaments like the world cup and the European Cup.
Seriously there is a very negative morality that justifies the holding of these games. Games like these encourage emotions such as patriotism and nationalism and in this day and age of globalization, patriotism and nationalism are revolting absurdities in which not even children are fit to believe.
Besides this moral issue, I think it would be great if at least some of the Arsenal international players realized that they are doing themselves a great disservice by not opting out of their national squads. I mean who nowadays believes that interntional games are the gold standard in terms of the quality of football that is played.
Right now, I seriously believe that some of the lower division teams like Norwich, would easily thrash England, since they have been led by a nincompoop like Erickson for some time now.
Again it is high time that international games were done away with. The moral arguements for doing so are strong ones.
August 27th, 2005 at 11:25 am
Again in the situations that you describe there should be an allowance made for players acting up out of self interest and players acting up over something somebody else said.
August 27th, 2005 at 11:28 am
True, it is an interesting insight, and like you said before I am VERY glad to be talking about something different for a change rather than moaning about the players we are not buying.
August 27th, 2005 at 11:30 am
The retaliatory actions of some players, like Moran retiring early from football, are excusable, but that still underscores my point that many people in the football world act in a highly unprofessional manner.
Other examples though, such as the Man U - Liverpool cliques which divided the England camp, and the players who went “on strike,” had no such original impetus. They are plainly unprofessional.
August 27th, 2005 at 11:32 am
Are you reffering to to the Glenn Hoddle and Keegan era of the England team?
August 27th, 2005 at 11:36 am
Not so much Hoddle. From what I gather Hoddle had a great calming influence on the side. And then he went mental.
August 27th, 2005 at 11:40 am
Hoddle was half mad. He actually selected sicknote Darren Anderton ahead of David Beckham in the initial games of France 98.
August 27th, 2005 at 11:44 am
While I don’t really think international matches fuel national rivalries to any significant level, I agree that international football should be abolished. I’ve been saying it for years.
The bloody qualification crap takes two years and there is so much press coverage and blank premiership weekends because of it as well. Will England get a point in Afghanistan? er, who gives a toss?
What makes me laugh is you get all this rubbish for two years and it could all go down the pan in two weeks and three mind-numbingly boring group games. What happens after that? They start another pointless qualification campaign a couple of months later. We should start a campaign.
August 27th, 2005 at 11:45 am
Maybe he suspected Becks of being a bad person in a previous life. How else could you explain having that crazy slag of a wife?
August 27th, 2005 at 11:50 am
I follow England, and I love England. But you’re right, the qualification process is absolutely stupid. England v Azerbaijan? Even I don’t care about that. And I don’t care what anyone says, following England to a place with more sheep than people is not loyalty, it’s lunacy. Maybe we should have a seeding process, like we do for the FA Cup. England would equal a team about Spurs’ level. Wales? Crystal Palace maybe. Azerbaijan = Barnet. And so on.
August 27th, 2005 at 11:57 am
I know what you mean. Its a complete and total distraction from the games that truly matter (league, FA cup and Europe). Plus especially when it comes to England specifically, what makes me laugh is the manner in which the press and the public go into these tournaments expecting a trophy each time for sure. Then when the inevitable happens they all scream. The whole time they ignore the evidence at hand. Namely that the team does not play together on a day in and day out basis, usually have a nincompoop for a manager like Erickson. This means that despite the multi centi-million pound effort even the highest seeded team has about as much chance of winning as the lowest seeded one.
I could go on and on, with my criticisms of this and I think its a shame that more people are not demanding it.
August 27th, 2005 at 12:04 pm
Yeah, or most probably both Hoddle and Anderton have the same guru, that woman named Eileen. I remember reading something about that at the time. Thats why when Hoddle switched to Spurs, Anderton was given an even fatter contract than before. One rumour I heard was Hoddle, knowing he was about to be sacked by Spurs pushed through an even more bumper contract for Anderton, to ensure his co-religionist a good cushion after his departure.
August 27th, 2005 at 12:12 pm
No, I dont believe that would really work. I really do think that International games have to be done away with alltogether. When the game has gotten to a stage where its no longer the gold standard than it should be done way with. Plus what about the loss to us as Arsenal fans, when our top players go traipsing around the world in a quest that we have no interest or stake in. The national teams are getting a free ride on our backs.
August 27th, 2005 at 12:12 pm
Thats it, Azerbaijan. Doh!
August 27th, 2005 at 12:15 pm
What also really bothers me about internationals is that it is the clubs who are totally on the hook if a player gets injured, and at the very least loses that player’s services for that time, all the while still paying that player’s salary! It’s sort of like me walking into your home and taking your car whenever I want, driving it from Florida to the Arctic Circle, not covering you for your loss of transport, the added mileage, and returning it to you with an empty tank of gasoline. I’ll give you that… I’m tired of countries taking our cars.
August 27th, 2005 at 12:21 pm
Yep, and what amazes me is that NO ONE, at our club stands up to the FA. NO ONE has the balls to demand that we get compensated every time a player who is contracted to us is called up by their country.
August 27th, 2005 at 12:22 pm
Who can ever forget Ray Parlour being coaxed into the Eileen Drury’s room during England duty. Drury placed her hands on Parlour’s head, and Ray said:”I’ll have a short back and sides thanks.” Hoddle was furious with Parlour’s attempt at humour and was never picked by Hoddle again. Classic.
August 27th, 2005 at 12:30 pm
Yeah I had forgotten about that one and now that you mentioned it I cant help but laugh. People are so touchy when it comes to religion.
August 27th, 2005 at 3:13 pm
What you say is true to a point, but look at that on the pitch fight at Newcastle last year. That fight started because one player felt he was deliberately being denied passes by his teammate. Sound familiar? Henry shrugging about oh… every, say… 30 seconds when he isn’t passed to? I’m not making the ridiculous suggestion that things would ever come to blows between Henry and Reyes - thats rubbish. What I *AM* saying is that these things can affect on-field play more than you give them credit for.
As for examples - I’m not going to string out a littany of them and thereby prove that I am a pessimistic a$$ with obsessive compulsive disorder. Instead I will simply remind my learned friend of the time that Reyes assisted an Henry goal and Henry let everyone else congratulate him but *QUITE DELIBERATELY* brushed Reyes hand off his shoulder as though cleaning dirt from himself. I lost a little respect for Henry *the human being* that day. I doubt that anything could ever mar my opinion of Henry the footballer.
August 29th, 2005 at 1:10 pm
I don’t know if it is stll bothering Henry (it still bothers me), but you have think that Henry saw the video tape along with the rest of the world. Reyes didn’t look too bothered by the comment then and afterwards as it was shrugged off by the Spanish media as a “motivating comment”. I think Reyes had a decision to make at that moment. Status quo or change? He chose to sit on the fence. As a black player who grew up in Europe and in America playing the game, you want to think of your teammates as “brothers” (naive of me I know) who have your back. I can’t speak for Henry, but as a gunner, I felt let down at the time by Reyes’ “I just work here” stance. He should’ve condemned the comments period. As for Spain and their national team coach (as well as all of the other racist “tough hombres” and “ultras”) who have so much to say in the safety of the stands (where their country and club condone if not directly support them all), my only wish is to see them in “the hood in America”. Come on down to Harlem, Watts, Detroit, Houston, D.C., BK,etc…and throw bananas. Funny how all of these tough guys have such strong words when they’re in a pack of whites or alone whispering in the dark. I bet you though, the next time I am in Europe, Spain to be specific (Madrid), there won’t be one comment aimed to my face, just smiles and nods.
I know this is a bit off of the subject but for what it’s worth, I suggest point deduction from repeated offending clubs. I’m not a betting man, but I’m willing to bet yours and my next paycheck that clubs would mysteriously figure out (rather quickly I’m sure) the solution to stopping the racial abuse in their stands.
August 31st, 2005 at 11:34 pm
But Reyes made it clear that he was offended by the episode, did he not? It seems to me that Almunia, who defended his national side’s manager (just in the wake of his FA Cup penalty save!) has since been benched.