The arguement that we should improve our squad with signings or should not have sold Vieira as it underminded the club’s ambition and opens a potential door for our key players to exit from Highbury, in my opinion, has a basic error in logic.
Take Henry as an example. When he first joined Arsenal, we were hardly a team which had won trophies for fun. So, why then, were we AMBITIOUS enough for Titi then, but not now, after so many trophies we have won in recent years?
Secondly, if Titi had a problem with us handing too many chances to young players, let’s cast our mind back to when he first joined Arsenal again: he was 20, around the same age of Reyes, van Persie, Senderos.
After being transformed to a new central forward role, he hardly lit up the world instantly. Arsene kept faith in him, and the rest is history. So he had his share of chances and faith given by our manager. Now that the manager has decided to keep his faith in a new generation of young players, why should it be seen as a sign of “lack of ambition” from the club?
Dennis Bergkamp, for example, had seen Arsenal sell Nicolas Anelka, his best friend Marc Overmars, and our midfield anchor Emmanuel Petit. All that happened when Dennis was still very much in the prime of his career. If Dennis, too, felt it was a sign of our lack of ambition back then, he wouldn’t have had the chance to win his second double and played himself into English football history with his role in our unbeaten winning season.
Did anyone honestly expect we would go on and achieve all these after we sold the aforementioned players?
Personally, I do not believe Henry has said what is being reported. However, in case he really is feeling this way, it’s fine to me. As long as he keeps on giving his best on the pitch for the remainder of his Arsenal career, I wish him well wherever he heads. In my opinion, if a club is not “ambitious” enough, they would not risk a make-or-break gamble to build a brand new stadium just in order to compete with the European “big boys”. If this is not AMBITIOUS, I do not know what is.
50 Responses to “Definition of AMBITION”
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August 29th, 2005 at 8:50 pm
I agree with you completely. I also think the TH14 probably didnt say whats reported ( at least I hope so). As our captain that would be stupid for him to do. It would undermine the younger players faith in the club for him to do so and as he is currently still a Gunner who I assume wants to win games, the last thing he would want to do is hurt the confidence of our somewhat untested youngsters. I had also read a report on tribal football that Wenger made a statement that he thinks Henry is stalling contract talks. Again, I hope its just a rumour. If Arsene wants to retain our current captain and not sell him like our last captain, such a statement would be a big mistake to make to the press. In general the club is trying to make the jump from the little team that could to “big-boys”. The new stadium will help hopefully, although it has put a financial restraint on the club. Without Abromo-bucks Wenger has to budget his transfer kitty. In the long run, I think that his plan to buy only the “right players” for the team and not just picking up a Michael Owen is a neccessary and very disciplined decision. Also it saves money for a possible January addition. I don’t think that the club lacks abmition, but rather because the club has ambition they need to make careful and restrained decisions that may not be a huge benefit in the short term.
August 29th, 2005 at 10:59 pm
Seems to me that all this talk about Th14 and his contract is just the media slagging off Arsenal and trying to put up these sensational headlines to sell papers. Didn’t Henry say this summer that he would stay at AFC as long as they would want him to stay ? As far as I know this is all that he has said. In any case we are still a solid club, are retoolling for the future while staying very competitive and I have no doubt in the ambition of the AFC. Now if we could hear about the trip to Highbury soon and start planning that, I for one would be thrilled!!
Have faith Gunners!!
August 29th, 2005 at 11:02 pm
The new stadium, very ambitious… no doubt about it. However, if we fail to make the CL in the next few years, and the stadium is 1/3 empty… huge mistake.
We are in a very precarious position. Let’s make no mistake about it. I love you folks who go on about Henry can leave if he wants to, Arsenal will still go on… blah blah blah…
YES, its very true… we will go on. But Leeds still go on as well… however, they are in the the wrong division!
Thierry Henry has EVERY RIGHT to be impatient about wanting to win. Players have a short window in which to be at their peak. Hell, Arsenal know this better than anyone, thats why they treat any player over 30 quite differently. The likes of Thierry Henry may not want to wait around to see if the “kids” pan out. What if they don’t… then he’s 31 or 32, and Arsenal will show him the door.
Realize there is no going back to being a mid-table team… please. Vieira and Henry and Anelka and Overmars and Petit… these are players that all helped Arsenal get to these lofty heights we have currently reached. We were recently at the pinnacle of the sport. With the new stadium on the horizon, there is no time for a hiccup.
Kids do NOT win championships. Sorry. Doesn’t happen. So in essence, going with all kids and bringing in no proven talent, in my eyes, is NOT a step forward for the immediate future. Superstar players do not wait around for kids to potentially blossom.
AMBITION. Trying to win EVERY TROPHY, NOW, TOMORROW, and NEXT WEEK. Not … hoping to survive a season of transition, and then maybe the kids will blossom.
Chelsea are trying to win every trophy known to man. So are Barcelona, Madrid, Juventus, Milan, Inter, ManU… etc… if we want to be mentioned in the same breath, we have to compete ON and OFF the pitch.
I don’t buy into this … punching above our weight stuff any more… NOT ANYMORE. We have reached a certain level that we are a HEAVYWEIGHT. I want to maintain that status, not wish upon a star that the kids ALL breakthrough and take us to wonderland.
How rare is it in sports that ALL the young talent blossoms into stars? Yet, we seem to believe that Cesc, Senderos, Reyes, RVP, Quincy… are all going to be STAR players? Thats not even fair to them its so far - fetched. You have to bring in proven talent to be at the level of the best teams in Europe. Why can’t we do that? Why can’t we be among the best in Europe every year. I believe we can… but we have to be willing to buy some talent on occasion. PROVEN talent that is.
August 29th, 2005 at 11:11 pm
The Grove will never fail to sell-out, even if the Arsenal fail to make the Champions League once in a while. What will keep supporters out is exorbitant ticket prices, and that goes for supporters of clubs at all levels.
August 29th, 2005 at 11:17 pm
Don’t agree Clarkey. You will need the “glory-hunter” supporter to sell out every week. That only comes with success. If Arsenal were to become a mid-table team in a few years time, they would NOT sell out the Grove.
August 29th, 2005 at 11:30 pm
I really doubt that, Stag, I really do. If you look at what’s going on at other clubs, talk to supporters from other clubs, the biggest complaint is not the lack of success, but the price of tickets. I am in touch with a Millwall supporters club, and that is certainly one club not as acquainted with success as are, to say the least! Even for them, though, the cost of football is putting many of even the hardcore supporters off.
Let’s face it, ticket prices in England are a complete joke. 40 quid to watch Arsenal dance around West Brom, win 1-nil, maybe 2-1, and yet the suits at Highbury will call that fair. And the argument that we need the money to compete with the best simply does not work. Ticket prices for the biggest continental clubs, such as Real Madrid, Bayern Munich, Juventus, AC Milan, Monaco, etc etc, are all extremely reasonable. 200 quid or so for a season ticket at Real Madrid, if memory serves.
August 29th, 2005 at 11:55 pm
Win now, not later and do it by any means needed, that is the feeling that runs through the blood of champions! Dont kid yourself, Henry is serious about Arsenal showing him how much ambition they have and Wenger wont be too far behind. “Show me a good loser and I`ll show you a loser!”. NBG out.
August 30th, 2005 at 5:34 am
This is the most beautiful piece of contribution I ‘ve heard from a gunner all summer. I honestly hope that the Arsenal board reads that and open up to the fact that AW is not God and that he needs to listen to others as well. I heard him making a comment that “I have heard people saying we do not have plan B, that is nonsense because we do”. Pure arrogance! I have said before, no coach would survive the board if he’s given the money to strengthen the squad and refuses to do so knowing very well that half of the squad are not really matured.
And btw, AW.. if you have plan B and people DO NOT see it, then EITHER it equal to plan A or almost equal to plan A
August 30th, 2005 at 6:01 am
Let me start by saying I hope all our freinds in the states are out of Mother Nature’s Way “Katrina” and safe.
Wooo Stag,
I hope I haven’t brainwash you. Lol… I remember not long ago I keep using the word “Glory Hunters” and you “hate” to hear that. To be honest there is a few Glory hunters in every club but as my boss said it seems after Chelsea, Arsenal have more of those fans. Everything is Arsenal, nothing is Arsenal’s fault, Arsenal can do no wrong, Wenger is God and the whole media hates us crap I keep reading. I say folks sit up and look at the big picture. REALITY CHECKS
Damn how things and time have change and you Stag of all people talking about football and not letting your emotions get in the way. But I’m 100% with you here and all the points you put forward. That is what I called facts.
As NBG said “Show me a good loser and I`ll show you a loser!”. That is the reality I keep talking about. But off late people are quick to diss you without any points or facts just emotion and cheap shots and that is not football.
For the past few days I have read some fantasy comments here and I wonder what game some people are watching or do they really understands the beautiful game. CESC is better than Lampard. what a joke.
The media don’t just come up with stories. Someone somewhere have said something and the media just put 2 and 2 together and don’t know what Henry said but is childish to think Henry is not thinking about his future. The new grounds means nothing to these players. Is another stadium whether you like it or not.
Clarkey there is still 100’s of seat still available at the Grove and if we don’t do well that place will be half empty because all the Glory hunters will not turn up and the real fans don’t have ?1200 a year to watch their team. 4 season ago I paid under ?600 now is over ?1000 and guess who is buying the tickets.
August 30th, 2005 at 6:04 am
Well said and Welcome XG..
August 30th, 2005 at 8:56 am
Your major bone of contention, Stag, is that Henry will leave and the stadium will be half-empty if we fail to make the CL. Yet Paddy was pushed out by Wenger even though he was seemingly satisfied with where the club was going. Okay, fair enough.
So should we pull a Liverpool and ease up in the league to make a run at the CL? They were decidedly mid-table, but won the whole thing. Is Anfield secure for years to come, now? Would that make Henry happy? I don’t mean to use this beaten-to-death analogy, but I’m finding it difficult to find another English club to use as an example other than the one that’s financially doped. Outside of Chelsea and their dull albiet effective club, for players in the Premiership, where would someone like Henry rather be? And DON’T say Man United, unless you think he wants to play qualifiers every summer.
Wenger is the only manager that has been able to take a club financed in mid-table figures and put them at the top of the table and inside a top 10 European ranking. Does this make him God? No. Is he perfect? No. But we ARE punching above our weight in the transfer market, and as long as Madrid, United and Chelsea are financially doped like they are, its likely we’ll retain that modifier. Is it Wenger’s fault that watching us on the pitch makes people forget how much we spend?
If there is no Roman, we finish top of the league last season. Suddenly, ManUnited ? spending an astronomical amount over our budget as we build a stadium like Andez pointed out ?somehow edge us out in ambition? I’m sorry, guys, this is not a tuning into reality as much as an affinity for self-flaggellation.
A drop in domination was inevitable when Roman arrived. Go on about Wenger’s risk-taking tactically, and his gamble of spending only when the exact missing piece of his puzzle is available. That’s where he’s rolling the dice and playing with the retention of the likes of Henry. But to say he’s not ambitious and to ignore that the big picture in The Premiership is changing and we’re fortunate to have a unique (not the greatest in the world!!!) manager who top of the table caliber gems want to play for, is just a symptom of residual diappointment after that fateful day when ManU ended our streak.
Of course Henry is thinking about his future. And as far as we know, he likes and appreciates where he is. If he goes, he’ll look back on his career and he’ll have to thank the club for everything he’s become as his international memories are hardly Rooney-like.
Our club has spoiled its supporters to the point that they are egging the coach for the lack of Russians on it.
August 30th, 2005 at 9:08 am
Let’s not go overboard. I think there are more than enough Arsenal supporters to fill out Ashburton Grove no matter what. Arsenal has always been a very well supported club, it doesn’t have the glory hunters of Utd, or even Chelsea.
If Arsenal suddenly have a bad time of things over the next 5 years, then maybe attendances might drop to the 55,000 mark, nothing that a few price reductions won’t sort out.
To be honest, I think the board is more ambitious than Arsene Wenger. He seems perfectly happy to let seasons float away aimlessly, he has always done this whenever Arsenal win trophies - he fails to build on success.
The result of this is that big players get fed up and leave, but Wenger always seems to find replacements and build things back up again.
Maybe that’s this way of achieving continuity, selling off big players to fund what is not a wealthy club. Maybe Arsenal are simply unable to compete financially so Wenger has to do it this way. Without seeing what’s at his disposal it’s hard to say, and it all gets very confusing when sometimes he lets players contracts run out.
I’m baffled. All I know is that this season, he appears to have got it all wrong. But let’s have a little more patience before we start sticking the knife in proper.
August 30th, 2005 at 9:28 am
Scotty, I think i said it before - just love the way u r able to access things from a bigger picture, and different angles.
“Our club has spoiled its supporters to the point that they are egging the coach for the lack of Russians on it.” How brilliant!
And I’m on the same wavelength as you regarding of Henry. Few may have noticed - his game tends to rely on players around him, rather than to make the players around him better.
One of my earliest articles in this site i mentioned about the Henry, Pires, Cole triangle. Pires and Cole’s intelligent run and ability to use the ball opened up a lot of space for Titi to operate effectively down the left flank. In recent time, I noticed Titi has been struggling a bit down the left. Much to do with Pires’ tendency to drift inside. Titi were left double or treble-teamed.
As u rightly pointed out - he has hardly lit up the world when he was playing with France national team. Arsenal’s playing stlye and the Premiership is almost talior-made for Henry.
August 30th, 2005 at 9:31 am
Scotty, I think i said it before - just love the way u r able to access things from a bigger picture, and different angles.
“Our club has spoiled its supporters to the point that they are egging the coach for the lack of Russians on it.” How brilliant!
And I’m on the same wavelength as you regarding of Henry. Few may have noticed - his game tends to rely on players around him, rather than to make the players around him better.
One of my earliest articles in this site i mentioned about the Henry, Pires, Cole triangle. Pires and Cole’s intelligent run and ability to use the ball opened up a lot of space for Titi to operate effectively down the left flank. In recent time, I noticed Titi has been struggling a bit down the left. Much to do with Pires’ tendency to drift inside. Titi were left double or treble-teamed.
As u rightly pointed out - he has hardly lit up the world when he was playing with France national team. Arsenal’s playing stlye and the Premiership is almost talior-made for Henry.
August 30th, 2005 at 9:38 am
Danny, you pointed out one FACT:
Arsenal have always been a well-supported club. Even when I first supported Arsenal back in the mid 80s, when we were less successful, our attendence ranked just behind Man Utd, Liverpool and Everton.
And let’s don’t forget during the per-Taylor Report era Highbury used to fill over 50,000 gate easily.
August 30th, 2005 at 11:55 am
You right but remember Andez before the Taylor Report era it cost peanuts to watch the game and that is not the case today. Do you know Arsenal is the most expensive club in London.
I have seen folks around me letting their season tickets go cuz they can’t afford it. There are 2 seats infront of me and each week or game you see different people sitting their.
August 30th, 2005 at 12:01 pm
haha LoveG, I knew u would bring up this point! i can’t argue with u on this point though, it’s true, football has been taken away from the working class. Though i’m only watching it from TV, the atmosphere in the ground is definitely different now and then. They don’t call the Highbury Library for no reason.
If i were living in UK and a season ticket holder i would be as p*ss. That’s why i think it’s important for us to manage our fund carefully. Afterall, all the expense of the club is actually coming from fans.
August 30th, 2005 at 12:02 pm
Thierry Henry would EXCEL on ANY team.
He is a super star. He DOES make the players on his team better. He has more assists than any player in the league year in, year out.
If a team bottles up Henry with 2 or 3 players, then its up to OTHER team-mates to step up. Hypothetically, it should leave others with much more space. Recently the others HAVEN’T stepped up. Henry plays amongst a STAR STUDDED French team, where he tries to fit in as a team player… thats simple to see. He’s not asked to take the star role and lead.
I think we’ll see how much Vieira meant as the year goes on. If Henry were to depart!!! You’d see just how amazing this guy is. Let’s not forget or even remotely discount JUST HOW GOOD Henry is.
August 30th, 2005 at 12:07 pm
Why do we need to ease up in the league to be good in the CL. The whole POINT is that we needed to get some proven talent to have a real go in the CL, and the league, in my estimation. Wenger said so himself, saying he wanted to bring in 2 or 3 players. Now that he failed to do so, suddenly its OK, we’ll still be great… Arsene knows… and if Henry leaves its not only OK, but somehow it would be because he can’t hack it in the EPL? E-freaking-Gad!
I don’t want the Russian mentality Scotty. I don’t think we need 70 million in talent on the bench to bring on as subs. But we are taking huge risks with the new stadium opening next year… and Thierry Henry possibly weighing up his options based on our season.
UNNECESSARILY, in my eyes. Thats all I am saying. We can and could have brought in some proven talent. I still haven’t heard a solid reason why. “Arsene knows”, “we aren’t Chelsea”, “Cesc is better than Lampard” and other stuff of that ilk… is NOT a solid reason.
August 30th, 2005 at 12:13 pm
The only way to keep the fans, is WINNING.
Yes, there will be the regulars, but some are being priced out. It is not a foregone conclusion that people will continue to shell out LARGE amounts of their hard earned money, no matter what the team is doing on the pitch.
That belief is sheer ARROGANCE and NAIVETE’.
Thats dangerous thinking. Especially at what we charge to see matches.
When you start to take for granted that you will sell out 60,000, regardless if whether we are in the CL or fighting for the title, you are in trouble.
I hope we never get to that point.
Many season ticket holders share their tickets to defray the cost. Its ALOT more than it used to be.
August 30th, 2005 at 12:29 pm
Incorrect. The only way to keep fans is to make it affordable while still at least show you’re challenging. Sunderland, a very popular club, has experienced lower gates than expected this season, despite “winning” promotion to the top flight. Why? Prices.
August 30th, 2005 at 12:33 pm
Ticket prices are not necessarily the highest in the country for everybody. The boxes are ridiculously expensive, but much of that is corporate stuff - easily affordable and very attractive for big companies. The every day seats are probably as competitively priced, and therefore affordable, as any other club.
August 30th, 2005 at 12:59 pm
It’s not as though your post comes as a shock as you’ve been making similar noises for some time now Stag - but it wasn’t until *just now* that it finally dawned on me how hard you were hit by Vieira’s departure. It’s really the only explanation I can come up with for how you went from a wild optimist to a frowning pessimist almost overnight.
Still, I take your argument. The heart of your argument being not that Arsenal is destined for failure but that there is a *RISK* that we could slip to mid-table or lower if certain dominoes start falling, i.e. Henry leaving, stadium 1/3 empty, etc.
If in fact I have correctly identified your argument I will have to disagree. You said in another post that no one had given you an adequate counter-argument - no evidential proof that might change your mind. With respect - I don’t think there is any one silver bullet statement that is likely to satisfy you. But then aren’t you really asking us to agree with your argument based on a similar house of cards? First we must believe that Wenger was either willingly penny-pinching or had his hands tied by the board, secondly we must believe that Henry said *AND MEANT* what he was supposed to have said, third we must believe that he *will* leave, fourth we must believe that his leaving combined with other factors will lead to the stadium being 1/3 empty. Don’t even get me started on those “other factors”.
Thats the trouble you see; it’s all very well to suggest that there is a *RISK* of trouble. Only a fool would disagree with that notion. There is a risk of getting hit by a bus when you cross the street - and I take that seriously enough too (to take the sensible precaution of looking both ways). No, what we’re really talking about here is where we all land on the *scale* of the risk. You seem to think the risk is *significant*, whereas I tend to believe the risk is *very slight*. You and I could both employ our own house of cards to defend our positions, but at the end of the day we are very unlikely to influence each other very much toward each others position - UNLESS - one of us possessed *TRUE* insider information that is verifiable to both parties - which we don’t have or we wouldn’t be having this discussion.
Don’t make the mistake of believing I don’t respect your opinions Stag - I eagerly seek out your posts along with ScottyUS’s and a few others. But in this case you’re kind of saying, “The sky is falling!”, and my thoughts are that even if it *IS* an acorn I’d at least like to *see* that acorn before I start leaning on your side of the fence.
August 30th, 2005 at 1:04 pm
Competitively priced does not necessarily mean something is affordable. And anyway, Arsenal’s prices are close only to other English sides. When compared to the more successful European sides, Arsenal’s prices are shockingly high.
August 30th, 2005 at 1:09 pm
I hear you as always, Stag, but I think you may have misconstrued some stuff that I’m saying.
Wenger was looking at 2 or 3 players that he saw might improve what he already had. He got 1. See Chelsea and Madrid for the other two. In the aftermath, he’s not going to bring someone in if they don’t fit the criteria and are better suited to win everything than what he has. That’s his gamble, and from his track record, I as a supporter have to try and understand it. Henry leaving, in my opinion, would possibly happen in a similar way Vieira’s did: because his valuation would be better in another league. Its not exactly a failure to “hack it”, but it might suggest the league kicked was through with him. Hard to imagine, I know. Which is why I don’t see him leaving. Vieira, on the other hand, let us know it was possible about 5 summers in a row even when you weed through the media detritus.
I mentioned easing up on the league for the CL to illustrate a point. Of course we wouldn’t do it, but it goes to show you the lengths some English clubs with more average transfer money go to to compete there. I don’t think Henry is upset with Wenger’s preparation in terms of personnel. If he has a problem, it would be tactics, and they often favor Titi himself.
And as I see it, “proven talent” doesn’t exist but for a few when you’re talking about Wenger’s style. A player needs to fit, not just be good somewhere else playing someone else’s style. Again, that’s Wenger’s gamble, and I can only hope that he’s looked far and wide to find players that could step in in front of our kids. Who am I to say he hasn’t exhausted every option financially available to his vision?
We’ve done things as a club that heretofore no other English club has accomplished. Perhaps at least a solid showing in the CL with kids is next. Wenger does things like the unique, foreign manager that he is, and that’s as solid a reason as we’re going to get, I think.
August 30th, 2005 at 1:10 pm
You right but remember Clarkey - teams from the North will always have their fans base due to the amount of teams there and sometimes it feels like the teams are part of the town or community. In Sunderland almost 90% of the town supports the club you can’t say that about Arsenal or Spurs.
Compare an Arsenal season ticket with teams from the North and wonder we are paying too much. Also in London you have lots of teams and most of the guys/fans comes from outside the M25.
August 30th, 2005 at 1:10 pm
I agree with Clarkey for this one - the most important factor is the PRICE, not winning.
Football fans are football fans because they LOVE football. They would stop and watch a pick up game in the park regardless of the standard of the game. If the price is affordable, even when we are not winning all the time, fans would still going. But when the price is too high for average ppl to afford, they would have to THINK about it (whether there is value for money) before going.
I read an article of the birth of FC United, part of their concept, apart from protesting Malcom Glazer, is to have a team they love that they can bring their kids to watch it without feeling “robbed” by the club.
August 30th, 2005 at 1:16 pm
Nope I still have my receipts from 5 season ago. Upper West from under ?600 to almost under ?1000.
That is alot of money
August 30th, 2005 at 1:16 pm
That just helps reinforce my point though, love_Gunners mate. Sunderland, a town fanatical for their one club, still partially turned it’s back on Sunderland FC, because the prices were simply too high.
August 30th, 2005 at 1:19 pm
True they don’t called highbury the library for no reason. Tickets and season tickets changes hands at highbury than any club.
August 30th, 2005 at 1:27 pm
Well it has start already. Know folks who go to lower local division games watch the PL on tele. On average you can spend almost 100 pounds a day which is not good. I loved Arsenal but trust me that can not go on forever. Look at our Monday game against Everton. The game have been on sale for a while but folks not buying it. Why is a Monday game on Tele so why should one pay almost 50 box.
As I said sometime ago the sad death of football is coming bit by bit.
August 30th, 2005 at 1:35 pm
From one of the Arsenal’s greatest thinkers:
“This argument [defending rising ticket prices] ignores central questions about responsibility, fairness, and whether football clubs have a role to play in the local community. But even without these problems, it seems to me that there is a fatal flaw in the reasoning. Part of the pleasure to be had in large football stadia is a mixture of the vicarious and the parasitical, because unless one stands on the North Bank, or the Kop, or the Stretford End, then one is relying on others to provide the atmosphere; and atmosphere is one of the crucial ingredients of the football experience. These huge ends are as vital to the clubs as their players, not only because their inhabitants are vocal in their support, not just because they provide clubs with large sums of money (although these are not unimportant factors) but because without them nobody else would bother coming. Arsenal and Manchester United and the rest are under the impression that people pay to watch Paul Merson and Ryan Giggs, and of course they do. But many of them - the people in the twenty pound seats, and the guys in the executive boxes - also pay to watch people watching Paul Merson (or to listen to people shouting at him)…. One more thing about the kind of audience that football has decided it wants: the clubs have got to make sure that they’re good, that there aren’t any lean years, because the new crowd won’t tolerate failure…. We mug punts put up with [failure], and at least twenty thousand of us would turn up no matter how bad you were (and sometimes you were very, very bad indeed); but this new lot… I’m not so sure.”
Stag this is a partial admission that we won’t sell out the Grove if we’re not winning, at least not as long as prices in football continue to rise. Make the game affordable, and there will be no worries at all.
August 30th, 2005 at 3:07 pm
Well, maybe I am from a different world? or at least a different part of the world… Boston.
Price has LESS affect on attendence to sporting events here than WINNING.
The RedSox have the highest ticket prices in ALL of Baseball. Have for years. Since they have been very good over the last 3 seasons… they’ve sold out EVERY game. Regardless of price increases EVERY year… they sell ALL the tickets. This would NOT be the case if they were in 3rd place and not going to make the playoffs.
NE Patriots… same deal. They’ve won 3 SuperBowls in 4 years… WINNING so much means they have raised ticket prices to HIGH levels… and it doesn’t matter AT ALL. They even force season ticket holders to pay FULL PRICE for pre-season matches. You still can NOT get tickets, SOLD OUT.
Conversely, the Boston Bruins and Boston Celtics have tried to get fans in the building. They have special packages for games, special nights for students, and $10 tickets… they can NOT fill the stadium, unless they are winning. Go on a winning streak, and the stadium fills up. Lose some games, and attendence goes right back down.
Corporate Sales of tickets is HUGE. If you bring a client to London for a visit, they take them out to… say an ARSENAL match. They want to see whats HOT in London. If Arsenal are on top, companies will want to buy luxury boxes and season tickets, and hospitality packages. Try that with a mid-table team. NOT GONNA HAPPEN. They’d go down the road to Chelsea in a heart beat.
YOU HAVE TO COMPETE for EVERYTHING!
You can always sell out Highbury for the most part. Its got limited capacity. But once you get into that big arena… its not that easy. Especially if people have to part with big bucks for tickets.
For the most part, if you are a winning team, people will pay to see you play. If you are losing… people find other things to do on a Weekend. Thats the point about the “casual fan”… which you need to fill a 60,000 seater every week.
Just my 2 cents/pence!
August 30th, 2005 at 3:44 pm
Stag, the Arsenal will not be able to seriously challenge for every title, every season, from the time the Grove opens its gates ’til the end of time. What then? And what about Liverpool? They went from being one of the greatest football powers in the world to being mocked as Premiership pretenders. Yet the Kopites were loyal through and through.
I care about the Arsenal winning. Alot. Who doesn’t want their club to win? But this situation is primarily one of class and economics. It is an “Us” versus “Them” situation; “We” are regular supporters, “They” are the money men and the glory hunting hangers-on.. It is “Our” club. Never forget that. The spirit of the Arsenal, of any club, belongs to the supporters. They cannot demand we pay 50 quid a week for the club’s spirit. We carry it with us. The money men are blurring our vision, confusing us, by equating customer loyalty with supporter loyalty. The game must be made affordable once more for the true supporters, the lads for whom a wet afternoon on the terraces of Selhurst Park watching a drab nil-nil draw, is true bliss. I am on a 4-year plan right now. My ultimate goal is to move to England, acquire British citizenship (or at the very least dual citizenship), and settle down with the Arsenal for hopefully many long years.
Yes, mine is a socialist vision, but then football’s ideal is that it is the game of the Everyman. It is the “People’s Game.” You don’t have to be Chairman Mao to agree with that sentiment.
August 30th, 2005 at 3:55 pm
As a part-time member of the Philadelphia Fairweather Fan Association I agree with everything you’re saying. Let’s face it, nobody wants to deal with the traffic, parking and stench unless there’s something in it. I only have one problem with your comments…
…if you’re a businessman and you want to take your client to a match, stop over at Millwall or West Ham before you go to Chelsea. They may be the Champions, but daaaaaaamn are they dull. Unless your associate is a Chelsea star-f*cker type, it not worth the price of the prawn sandwiches, really.
The Arsenal will almost always put on a wonderful show, even if its a one nil.
August 30th, 2005 at 3:56 pm
Stag, I think the American professional sports are somewhat different in terms of culture than English Football. English football has more than a century’s history, and it’s in the root of English culture. As Clarkey pointed out - it’s the PEOPLE’s game. Just look at the PASSION. When Red Sox played an away game somewhere, would there be any TRAVELING fans to go along just to watch them play?
August 30th, 2005 at 3:59 pm
Even your logic is somewhat faulty, Scotty. The Arsenal will not continue to play like this forever. Look at Ajax, right. They once played some of the most beautiful football in history. Yet only a short time ago they were playing “negative” counterattacking football. They still retained many of their supporters worldwide though. As will the Arsenal, when the inevitable decline happens.
August 30th, 2005 at 4:01 pm
I often criticize American sports fans, Andez, but one thing you really can’t compare is the culture of Away Days in England and North America. We simply don’t have that here, because the distances are simply too great and too expensive. Also most of their leagues have more “meaningless” games than does English football.
August 30th, 2005 at 4:17 pm
I hope so but don’t agree with you scotty. How can the library put on a wonderful show forever.
If Arsenal were to be another mid table team then you will see the real Arsenal. I remember back in the early 90’s in mid table you can get tickets very cheap a day before and that can happen again. I hope not but as always have to look at the big picture.
August 30th, 2005 at 4:26 pm
The people’s game and one day the people will stand up and say enough is enough. I remember some folks who used to sit next to me and one by one folks are leaving cuz they can’t afford the prices and these are real fans. The glory hunters can afford the tickets but when the chip are down you will not see them
August 30th, 2005 at 4:35 pm
The library is a disgrace, true. Nothing 4 or 5 pints can’t fix. And the football is better than what you’re likely to get at The Bridge. Imagine the conversation:
You: So, what do you think?
Client: Let me get this straight. These lads in the stands are screaming because they’ve been bought by some Roman with a billion dollars?
You: No, no. The man’s name is Roman. He’s a Russian oil baron. And on the pitch before you is arguably the greatest collection of talent The Premiership has to offer. Impressive, no?
Client:…why do they keep kicking the ball all the way down the pitch to that man there? Every time I look down to bite into my prawns and look back, its as if the game’s been rewound.
You: Yes, well…they’ve the best defense in the league. And did I mention they were Champions?
Client: Yes, you did. (beat) So tell me…what’s an Ashes Test?
Keep the Faith, l_G. Emirates is likely to improve the atmosphere if only by an extra 30,000 moans and mumblings of disgust. Either that, or the ticket price will have them booing. Hey, noise is noise.
August 30th, 2005 at 4:43 pm
Ahhh, but that’s where Wenger’s genius comes in. He and the board know what butters the biscuit.
Wenger will stay on after retiring as manager and bring in an apprentice of his game to take his place. After Dein and Hill-Wood dies from sun and hair-dye poisoning respectively, Wenger will take over at the highest board level and fill the entire organization with little Wengerphiles of which yours truly will be of the first Americans to step in.
I will not only take up the torch of his style, but add a bit of American bully and enthusiasm as I recruit young State-ees that have been bred with Brazilians and Mexicans. And I will go by the name of “The Apt Pupil”, taking my first title from The Special One, II.
It will always be brilliant, Clarkey. Always.
August 30th, 2005 at 5:13 pm
Hmmm. I always said you the best on this site and really enjoy your marketing.
What’s an Ashes Test? England is beating the old enemy and don’t spoil the party.
But I take your points on board. I might speak to Arsenal if they have any job going at our marketing dept. You can do a better job selling the game and club image. Maybe Mr. Wenger’s right hand man.
August 30th, 2005 at 7:37 pm
We’ve all been saying there’s a RISK. Nobody has said SACK WENGER! Not a single person.
Why are some of you people always looking for trouble where none exists? And why can’t you accept people’s opinions for what they are?
August 30th, 2005 at 7:39 pm
Why should a glory hunter be able to afford a ticket and not a so called ‘real’ fan? Doesn’t make sense. People are people.
August 30th, 2005 at 7:41 pm
I don’t quite get what you mean to say here, Danny.
August 31st, 2005 at 8:54 am
Danny, I didn’t - and wouldn’t - imply that anyone suggests sacking Wenger or taking any other such drastic measures merely because they state something that might be construed as negative. In fact I believe that while a large number of people on this site have had a go at you for your forthright opinions - my name would not be among them. I don’t attack the speaker as so many have done. Stag and I have debated a lot of issues here on the site for some time now and I doubt he would tell you that I have been unkind to him in my posts.
Ultimately I am not looking for trouble where none exists - that’s the point. I don’t see the negative side of things quite as readily as others do, but I do see the risks. I suppose - if I’m honest with myself - that means that I get hit harder by bad news than other people do. To put it another way - I get burned more often than the average Joe.
As far as accepting other peoples opinions - I believe I do that whole-heartedly. If I analyzed the reason why I responded to Stag the way I did - the biggest single purpose of my post was to cheer up Stag a little. I know it sounds stupid, but its the truth. Stag’s a great football man, and a passionate Arsenal supporter, so if he’s worried at all that the team is in a real decline then I have a duty as fellow gooner and someone who respects his opinions to, “buy him a virtual pint.”
Finally, perhaps the reason that so many people get bent out of shape around here revolves around the English language. If people want to write provocatively they know instinctively how to do it. People often write to inspire debate. They write to receive attention. A reasoned explanation of how a series of small risks equal a large risk doesn’t make for very good reading because it may not encounter much opposition. So we are stuck a bit, aren’t we? We either inspire debate - some of which can get ugly, or we write something that nearly everyone agrees on but nobody responds to. We don’t get it both ways.
August 31st, 2005 at 9:06 am
You know, Ice, its rude to buy one ArseAmer a virtual pint and leave the rest of us dry.
If I’ve succeeded in making you feel guilty enough, I would also a shot if you don’t mind.
That is all.
August 31st, 2005 at 5:32 pm
YES!!!!!!
Andez…
REDSOX NATION, as we are called TRAVEL.
We often outnumber the fans of other teams. It has happened in TampaBay often.
RedSox fans are as passionate as ANY English Football fan. It transcends age, gender, race…
September 7th, 2005 at 7:43 pm
that is tru almost all of away stands when arsenal compete away from home is more succesful, and clubs aim to appeal to home grown fans rather wealthy glory hunters because it is a wide known fact that most of the money is earned from merchindise which fly-by customers are unlikely to purcase. and the “hottest” ticket in town is not nessicarially the best Monaco in the french league have an average attendance of 10K and this is a team that regularly competes in europe, Juventus and Bayern do not often have anything close to a sell out with Manchester United having less numbers of customers, whilst Norwich City and Sunderland have packed crowds for their stadium whilst being non-fashionable clubs but because they appeal to the heart of the supporters
Also one of the early comments about you cant win anything with kids? are u totally stupid did u totally miss manchester uniteds double with young beckham keane giggs and the neville brothers 98-99, and why cant all those players be stars? wnger gives each player such a gruelling physical that some hate it and refuse to take part like Rustu after the brilliant world cup run he had in the far east he was quoted as saying weneger made him feel like a child. And where are we supposed to get these STAR young players, they have to be young because if they are 27-30 few years later theyll leave, ok then lets see, lets go germany and find Schwistenger and Pander about 20 million a peice, F.inzaghi, about 30 million, hmm lets find a keeper Victor Valdez or Iker Casillas about 30 million there wait wait lets build a new stadium THEN we can buy all these players and theres a chance they may not come like robinho and the beast and baia. Why throw away such a good system that made us from one of the top six teams in england into the top two? how much sense does that make?