If you look at the last two full campaigns (03-04 and 04-05) plus the current season, Arsenal have put together a record of 13 wins, six draws and just four losses. That’s very good. How good, well let’s compare it with Porto, who won the whole thing two years ago. They’ve gone 10-9-7 over the same period of time. How about a true Euro heavyweight, Bayern Munich. They’ve gone 10-5-7 over the same time period. It looks to me like Arsenal have in fact done quite well in Europe.
But, who did Arsenal rack up those wins against? Well, that’s another matter. In 03-04 Arsenal had a ‘quality’ win over Inter. In 04-05 they beat PSV and Bayern (but not by enough). This year they’ve beaten Ajax. So really, of the 13 victories maybe four or five have come against decent sides.
Porto’s ‘quality’ victories came against Man U, Lyon, Chelsea and Inter (x2). Not really more quality wins, but better sides.
Munich beat Ajax, Arsenal and Juve.
So again, looking at a random sampling Arsenal stack up pretty well against a recent winner and a perennial power.
As difficult as this is to accept, maybe Arsenal’s “failures” in Europe are down to nothing more than not being at their best for one day. They have lost just one of their last 13 and yet really don’t have much to show for it.
34 Responses to “Arsenal In Europe - Behind The Numbers”
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November 25th, 2005 at 4:41 pm
What a load of old balls. If you take the 5 wins away from this walkover group we are in then all of a sudden it is 8-6-4 ratio. Not very good huh? How about taking Champions League results from between October 1st and October 30th for the last ten years, maybe they will look great - if they don’t, pick another month until they do.
This competition is all about what you do when you get past the group stage, and in Arsenal’s case the last 10 years have been woeful.
You can massage the figures as much as you like, pretend we are jinxed, say we are unlucky, or whatever - the fact is, everytime Arsenal play somebody of significant quality in the Champions League we struggle or invariably lose.
Yes, there has been the odd excellent result, of course, you would expect that - but a one-off performance will not win you the Champions League, you need more than that.
So stop kidding yourself and be realistic. This year we are less likely to win it than ever. Of course, there could be a miracle - Wenger might buy 3 world class players in January and they might all slot in to the team beautifully. Is that likely? No. Is it likely he will buy anyone in January? No. Is it likely that the first team Arsenal play in the next round will knock us out. Yes.
But don’t worry, you can always imagine that we are crap in the competition because we always have an off day every year. In reality, we could beat Barcelona, Real Madrid, Ac Milan, Man Utd, Chelsea, PSV, whenever we feel like it - if only it wasn’t for those damned “off-days”. The same off days that have stopped Port Vale making in into the Premiership, or Tottenham beating us once in the last 10 matches. It’s because they kept having off days.
November 25th, 2005 at 5:19 pm
I think the only thing matters is to win the Champions League.
When talking about the past winners, nobody remember who they beat and how they won it.
And I imagine if we break into final, beating Real Madrid, Juve, Milan on the way, yet lost to a smaller side like Lyon, it would still mean nothing.
November 25th, 2005 at 5:23 pm
Danny, i think in football u can’t be realistic, particular in a tournament. ‘Cos it’s really like a box of chocolate - how anyone can be sure what’s going to happen next? No matter how realistic one being.
Liverpool’s captain Steven Gerrard seemed had made an realistic statement last season, that he didn’t think his side was good enough to win it. But they did. So did Porto the season before, realsitically speaking, i don’t think too many ppl gave them a chance.
Realistically speaking, our squad the past few seasons had a better chance to win the damn thing, but they didn’t.
So who knows?
November 25th, 2005 at 5:33 pm
Rick, fair points in my opinion.
You can massage statistics to say anything.
But we COULD have won the CL the year we lost to Chelsea and Porto won it.
One bad day CAN undo a whole lot of good matches in the CL.
The bad loss to Bayern last year proved too much to overcome. Its really that simple.
We could beat just about anyone in the knockout stages, or lose to anyone. Thats just the Arsenal at the moment… and thats the FACT of the CL.
Liverpool and Porto as Europe’s best teams because they won the CL tourney?
I don’t think either team was a TOP 5 team, let alone the best. Hell, Liverpool was AWFUL in the league last year… they didn’t even deserve to make the CL this season.
Its a crap shoot. Its about skill and talent yes… but its equally about LUCK and STYLE and TACTICS.
We’re in the next round, and TOP of the group.
How anyone can complain about that is beyond me.
We don’t make the schedule or pick the teams in our group. We just PLAY FOOTBALL. 5 for 5. Anyway you slice it, thats outstanding.
November 25th, 2005 at 6:42 pm
What do you mean we could have won it against Chelsea? You might just as well say we could have won it last year, but we didn’t, we f*cked up again.
One thing is for certain, over the last 3-4 years, the competition has been dominated by defensive teams that play a tactically spoiling game. So you have to at least have a strong defence and be organised at the back.
This kills off Arsenal’s hopes two fold. First, because our defence has individual errors written all over it and secondly our attack cannot break down well organised defensive teams. We have seen it time and time again.
So really, there is no hope at all of winning this competition with our current squad.
November 25th, 2005 at 6:45 pm
Of course, never say never. But I think there is more chance of Wigan winning the league than Arsenal winning the Champions League.
I honestly have zero belief in the team’s ability to achive it - in past years I have had much more optimism. I still enjoy watching the games, because it’s fun as the underdog to see us trying to achieve for me what is nearly impossible. But I would like nothing more than to eat my own words.
November 25th, 2005 at 11:58 pm
Danny, the fact remains, you have to play the games. So NO, I don’t agree there is no hope at all.
We could pick up a defender or 2 in January and change the dynamic of the squad. We could pick up a midfielder who can hold the ball, and change the dynamic of the squad.
Its football. ANYTHING can happen.
The fact that Porto and Liverpool won the competition tells you that.
AC Milan were up 3-0. They lost the match.
Liverpools defense and tactics were good?
When was that?
They gave up 41 goals in the EPL last year, 5 more than we did…
Is it likely we are going to win the CL with this team as currently constituted? I’d say NO FREAKING WAY… but then again, Liverpool finished the EPL season 17 Wins 14 Losses and 7 draws… 37 POINTS off the top.
That points to the absolute CRAP SHOOT this tournament is. Its not like they are doing well this year either.
So they are not a good defensive team, their tactics aren’t very good, and they still won the CL.
How, well thats still a mystery to many.
I’d say we are about as likely to win it as they were last year, probably MORE likely.
November 26th, 2005 at 1:57 am
These Numbers are really a deceiving thing. Take for example the following situation:
A team can win the CL tournament with a 7-6 record and a team can lose the tournament with a 12-1 record. So which team is better? The one that won the tournament despite losing all its away games or the one that creamed all their opponents and lost a final on a penalty shoot out? In this day and age of money spending and winning is everything, the answer is winner takes all. No questions asked.
In 2002-03 Barca won all their 6 first round games, then they had a 5-1 (tie) record in the second group stage, and ended up losing the quarter final 3-2 to Juve (a 2-1 defeat in one game). So overall they won 11 games, tied 2 and lost one. It goes without saying that one loss undid everything they worked for.
Funny thing is if you look at Man U and Liverpool’s CL wins — both teams looked pretty shabby for most of their games but they made amazing recoveries and suddenly, they are cream of the crop. Those one fluke victories are just that, fluke…Is that truly a sign of greatness? I don’t think so. Sure you can give credit to the players for fighting back, etc but if the team can’t repeat their performance, what does that mean? Either the team was lucky or the team is not as good as some of the other teams…
Ofcourse, some records do speak for itself. For example, when Madrid won 5 straight finals from 55 - 60, they were the undisputed best. I don’t think those numbers can be matched in the CL anymore though. Now every year the same few teams are the favs but at the end of the day, who wins the cup is anyone’s guess. It goes without saying a team with a solid foundation has a better chance than a team with obvious weakness but they cup games throw some surprizes every now and then. Away goals are still crucial and can change how a team plays or reacts…
Winning the group for Arsenal was a nice thing. Atleast they won’t get Lyon or Barcelona for sure. We won’t get Inter Milan either, which is a shame really. Because with Inter you never know. Heck, even Inter don’t know how their team will do on any given day. They beat Arsenal at 3-0 at Highbury and got smoked 5-1 at home. Who would have expected that? That would have been a good tie. Anyway still some dangerous teams around. Both Juve and Milan could still finish second. Err, Madrid are also another 2nd place team…
Keeping fingers crossed….
November 26th, 2005 at 2:01 am
Err, my comments up there. I think I have figured out how one’s comments get anonymous id –
1) if one takes too long to type their stuff out, like I just did, they get logged out after a bit..
2) If someone else happens to be posting at the same time as you, then sometimes you get anonymous id…
November 26th, 2005 at 2:10 am
Guys seriously how can you look at 5 wins out of 5 and still complain….yes Arsenal did not play well against Thun but to get professionals motivated for almost meaningless games is very difficult when nothing is on the line….everything was up for grabs for Thun and so were more motivated….either way we STILL won!! In the EPL we have started to pick up the slack and are looking good rght now so let’s get behind the guys and cheer them on….otherwise change the name of the website to ArsenalMoanersAmerica instead coz that is exactly what it resembles these days….
As far as Blackburn game goes….it will be very physical and tough game but Arsenal should come out on top….
November 26th, 2005 at 6:43 am
It just goes to show that sometimes it’s better to be lucky than good. Are Liverpool actually better than Milan? Who went home with a trophy? Hell, we got played off the park and outright embarassed in June by Man United. Who went home with that trophy?
November 26th, 2005 at 7:23 am
People are complaining because Arsenal used to be a team that would utterly dominate weaker opponents. Bergkamp saved our asses the first time we played The Mighty Thun and they probably should have beaten us in the second game but had 2 goals disallowed. We’re talking about the weakest team in the competition, not Juve, Barca, or Lyon.
Who exactly the f*ck have we beaten in Europe? We were lucky to have the two of the 3 worst teams in the competition in our group. Don’t get me wrong as I’ll take a win anyway that I can get it but aren’t we supposed to be in this competition to win it? To be taken down to the wire against Thun? Twice? Are you freaking kidding me?
I’m not the smartest guy in the world but I’m not retarded either. I’m glad we got the wins as I always want to win. There is a false sense of our team being better than it actually is. It seems as if management is bent on being lucky, constantly citing what Liverpool and Porto have done, rather than being good. It’s just unfamiliar ground as Arsenal have always had a strong team that played good football. I’m behind the team 100%. Such a weak Arsenal is just unfamiliar.
November 26th, 2005 at 7:50 am
Spot on.
November 26th, 2005 at 8:01 am
Before, I have always just been absolutely gutted by Arsenal’s constant underachievement. Over the past 10 years we’ve had the most consistently strong team in the world. Unfortunately, we’ve historically been the epitome of underachievement. Why couldn’t we repeat as Premier League Champions? Why haven’t we won the Champions League or atleast the UEFA Cup?
Now, it’s plain to see there’s a retrograde in team strength and quality. We’re not that consistently strong team anymore. We look a far cry from “The Invincibles” of two years ago. What’s changed so much? I’ve been asking the question all season and no one has answered me yet but what’s happened to our team and what are management doing? Of course I understand no one knows the future but someone take a SWAG at it (SemiScientific-Wild-Ass-Guess).
[I think SWAG is just a term used by aviators as I've only heard it in aviation, but I'm introducing it to the rest of my ArseAm brethren.]
November 26th, 2005 at 8:15 am
Good points, generally. What comes to mind when I read them, though, is the prevelant feeling that Wenger never really cared about the CL to begin with. He’s always prioritized the league before Europe, and would rather eat a turd than work on defensive, European tactics.
Now that Chelsea’s come along and the league has taken on this parodic air and the fact that Henry won’t sign he seems to have awakened him some. New tactics were in the mix prior to a half dozen injuries and inconsistent squad development. We were being patient, slowly building to that moment of class to break it open. It hasn’t quite worked out like that yet, but we’re healing, dealing without our captain, young, injury prone and yet its always threatening. In fact, its happening.
Arsenal are different now than they once were, but so is the League. And the transfer market. It was time for us to transition into something, not to mention a new stadium. Thun is only a real indicator of how the many changes have broken our stride, much like Sheffield United was last season in the FA Cup, not an indicator of what we can and will be on the pitch.
Gripe about our performances in any one of the 5 wins if you want, but in the big picture where just coming out with all XI in one piece is the paramount concern, I’m thinking your energies may be best used elsewhere.
November 26th, 2005 at 8:25 am
I think today’s game will say alot about our current team and future. Up against a decent team, If we come on strong and win with gusto then I think we’re set up for strong season with maybe less mental scars to hinder progress in europe. Then again, one Pascal Cygan balls up and you can forget what I just said.
November 26th, 2005 at 8:37 am
You want to win the UEFA cup?
Take a look at the stadium and the billions in West London. Its by FAR not the entire story, but if we want to hang with the new transfer market, you’re going to have to play with the big boys in the front office and that means not pulling down your pants and buying up every available swinging d*ck in the market - especially if you’ve got a system that calls for certain parts.
As far as rolling with it all and still winning things, we’ve done better than anyone else in the league in the last 8 years. MUCH better. Pick apart our success in the CL all you want, too. Everyone is. But if we all get healthy and wise, your answers will come.
Just my SWAG.
November 26th, 2005 at 8:39 am
To be fair, who have we ever beaten in Europe? The only real big team that we beat with champions league pedigree was Juventus four years ago. Even when we beat inter the midfield pairing was parlour and Edu. We never, ever, dominated anyone in the champions league. We couldn’t even beat panathnaikos at home.
November 26th, 2005 at 8:43 am
Hey Scotty, what did you think about my fabregas/Vieira contrast in the previous article? Do you see where I’m coming from in terms of our playing style evolving with Fabregas?
November 26th, 2005 at 10:01 am
I’ll copy and paste part of my reply to you in the last thread.
Before the game, Steven Gerrard demanded to play a slightly different role in central midfield and, against his better judgement, Benitez let him have his way. Were it not for the speedy introduction of Didi Hamann, Liverpool could have been more goals behind. Gerrard knew his error might end up costing his side the game, so he gave in to Benitez’ tactical plan, and, coupled with his amazing will to win, pulled his side level. The rest is history. But that history was shaped more by the slightest tactical changes than it was purely player ability.
Benitez is a brilliant tactician in Europe, but in that instance he gave in to his captain, which could have been a grave error.
November 26th, 2005 at 10:16 am
I watched the match. It was alot more than mere tactics that changed. 3-0 down to an AC Milan team with solid D… you need prayer as much as tactics.
Simply, you have to have the horses. Tactics alone mean nothing. Liverpool were not close to being as good as AC Milan, except on that one day for one half and PK’s.
Thats where reality says YES, we do have a chance. Anything can happen. Likely? no… but neither was Porto or Liverpool winning.
November 26th, 2005 at 10:19 am
Played 5 CL matches this season…
Won them all.
Simply can’t do better.
We didn’t PICK our opponents.
We just beat them.
November 26th, 2005 at 11:10 am
I suppose we’ll have to agree to disagree.
November 26th, 2005 at 11:58 am
I’d never agree that Liverpool are a good team.
They simply aren’t.
If their coach is so brilliant tactically… why can’t he beat teams in the EPL?
November 26th, 2005 at 12:09 pm
So what? You don’t win the Champions League by beating FC Thun and Sparta Prague.
You might be proud of these results, in a complete u-turn to everything else you have said this season, but for me the results were expected and the performances very average.
I’l start licking arse if we beat someone decent on the way to the semis. Not yet.
November 26th, 2005 at 12:11 pm
Psychology. Their season was over by Christmas. You said it yourself, you cannot motivate players to win nothing matches. By March their only motivation was the Champions League.
November 26th, 2005 at 12:35 pm
Yeah ‘trific, that’s why we’ll AGREE to DISAGREE.
November 26th, 2005 at 12:37 pm
It’s just not worth the hassle anymore Danny. They’re in cloud cuckoo land.
November 26th, 2005 at 1:30 pm
We’ve done better than anyone in the past 8 years than anyone in the world. That’s exactly my point. We’ve just managed to not do all of those things I was talking about in my post.
I only elluded to the UEFA Cup as we played in the final a few years ago but lost to Galatasary. I’m optimistic and looking forward to getting my answers.
November 26th, 2005 at 2:11 pm
Underachievement? UNDERACHIEVEMENT?! Sweet fancy moses this club has won the Double, TWICE, in recent memory. This club has put together an UNDEFEATED season! That’s underachievement? Arsenal have had no where near the resources of Man U, AC Milan, Inter, Read Madrid, Barca, etc. and yet have managed to play in the same league as them. My God you are spoiled.
November 26th, 2005 at 3:03 pm
We were good enough to beat everybody on any day of the week. Spoiled, nah. More like greedy.
November 27th, 2005 at 12:07 am
They were certainly motivated to get into the top 4, and get qualified to defend their title. The fact is they couldn’t do it. They had their chances and lost to mediocre EPL teams.
37 points off the top. Thats NOT a good team.
November 27th, 2005 at 12:10 am
I am hardly licking arse. Haven’t all season, won’t start now… but there is not a damned thing wrong with recognizing that they WON EVERY MATCH in their group. Thats a significant upgrade in the CL group stages from anything I have EVER seen.
That deserves a tip of the cap. They deserve the acknowlegement. Simple.
November 28th, 2005 at 8:10 am
I completely see where you’re coming from. Wenger favors attack over defensive, and I still don’t think the midfield is where we’re weak. Would it help our schizo back four? Sure. But if we’re going forward like we can and constantly applying attacking pressure, we’re going to be fine.
You never once made a qualitative comparison to Vieira in what you said, so I don’t know why some here are having trouble with the article. Wenger wants the ball to move towards the goal the entire game, forcing clubs on the backfoot and ostensibly taking away the counter save some long balls which we should have no trouble defending.
Wenger has always favored the offensive. A few goals and our hunting hounds tend to relax. Sometimes too much. But as a man who is quickly graying, I think he prefers to sit on the bench with confidence that a goal is always likely. With Cesc, it is.