Hello Gooners! Jared (not from Subway) is back with a 3rd post. Sorry for the hiatus, college can get busy.
Oh btw, thanks a lot for reading my last post all that way back. I didn?t think that many people would read it! Thanks for all of the great feedback I can obviously see there?s a lot of tactical talk here, but I wanted to post about an issue or a ?non ? tactical? thing. So I said, ?Oh why not.”
Anyways, my post today is inspired from a reply post that SCJonathan made in my last post. In his reply post, there was an interesting topic he hit upon. And I know I should hate Sp*rs, but growing up in the US and having been a follower for 10 years, I really do not hate them. I just view them as a team standing in our way for success.? What he said in that part really hit me. Everywhere I go, everyone I talk to, and every site I go to that has to deal with Arsenal always talks about the heated rivalry with Spurs. They also mention other less heated rivalries with other teams. I?ve heard them being called healthy rivalries.
As a relatively new Arsenal fan, definitely less than 10 years, and a user of common sense, I see and understand why these rivalries are there. But, because I have not been an Arsenal fan for so long, ?or maybe because I am not a rightful fan? (see my last post, probably nowhere to be found now), I feel that I have a similar opinion about our rivalry with the Spurs. It is hard for me to, in such a little amount of time, pick up this hatred against the Spurs. Maybe not hatred for some, but a strong dislike. I believe that Arsenal fans, especially abroad, should not feel that they are required to instantly hate Spurs with all of their might as soon as they choose to support us. I think that SCJonathan is true in that they stand in our way to success. Any Gooner can agree on that. But I don?t feel that any hate or dislike against Spurs makes you a ?better? or ?truer? Gooner.
I may not hate Spurs as much as an Islington born-and-raised, but that doesn?t make me any less of a fan. Inherited hate is something that should not be required of any Arsenal fan. (cont.)
As with my last post, I?ll start out with a little story. When I started watching international football, I had no idea who the Spurs were. I was just watching pretty much whatever was. After some time, I inevitably found out about the Spurs and did a little research why they were. Of course, I found out about Arsenal?s long-lasting rivalry with Spurs. I decided to put it in my mind that I should not like them, that I should hate them. And so I did for some time, or at least tried to. But after time, I found it hard to hate something that I did not know much about. I just knew that they were in North London and that we don?t like them. So after some time, I became guilty of watching some of their games and just ?getting to know my enemy?. And you know what? I?ll be the first to say that there are some good, quality players their squad. I?ll even admit to liking some of them.
I?ll start out by talking about Edgar Davids. He?s a great midfielder who?s got a good grasp of the game and work hard both offense and defense. (Personally I think Marco Van Basten is stupid for not calling him up, but that?s for another forum). Also, I just have to give props to Defoe. He?s a great striker. What else can I say? Obviously he is one of the best in England.
Also another noteworthy forward is Robbie Keane, another great striker who plays internationally. Even our own Thierry Henry can give props to of the best central defenders around, Ledley King. According to Henry and my own opinion, he can get the ball w/o playing dirty. His technique and pace are great. Spurs have some great players, some who I wish were my team, some who I wish otherwise.
Maybe it?s because I?m American. Maybe it?s because I?ve been a fan for not too long. Maybe it?s because I?m a nice guy. But I can?t bring myself to see the Spurs as an entity that I hate with all of my heart. I don?t like them. And yes, they stand in our way. Yes, they are in North London. Yes, they have taken some players that we would?ve wanted. Yes, their manager is a Dick (oh wait that?s his brother). But I don?t see, through my own point of view, reasons that would make the Spurs the bane of all evil. It feels weird that you should hate something. Even better, it feels weird to be pressured to act a certain way or feel a certain way about something, whether it be a football club, a brand of shoes, or even, a race of people.
SCJohnathan said that he knows he should hate Spurs. I hate that fact that he, and countless other Gooners worldwide, feels that a hatred for the Spurs is vital to being an Arsenal supporter, or better yet, that it is vital to being a ?real? Arsenal supporter. That indirect pressure is something that I wish we could get rid of. I am not supporting Spurs, but I just don?t want a hate for the Spurs to be a defining characteristic of a Gooner. As you can tell, I?m a Gooner who supports letting fans be who they want to be. I love a team that has fans from the whole spectrum, extreme, casual, and all types in between. I like fan freedom of expression. I support the growth of our club and its fan base worldwide. But I have to admit that as a new Gooner finding out about Arsenal, the club I would soon love, I felt some pressure to hate the Spurs, but not knowing why. Maybe in time, I will find my own reason to hate the Spurs some more. But my newness to the Arsenal legacy leads me to believe that new Gooners shouldn?t feel pressured to hate the Spurs when they don?t want to, and we as ?established Gooners? should not rate Gooners as more or less of an Arsenal supporter because of their dislike towards the Spurs.
Ok guys, it?s time for you guys to put in your own input. What do you think about our rivalry with the Spurs and how it has affected the new Gooners of today? Please share your opinions, ideas, stories, beliefs, etc. with all of us.
Up the Arse! Kiss the crest! Keep the faith!
Jared
P.S. Am I seriously saying that right? Does anyone know what the history of the saying is? Any info will be greatly appreciated. Cheers!)
(P.P.S. Thanks to SCJohnathan for his reply to my last post.)
23 Responses to “Inherited Hate”
Leave a Reply
You must be logged in to post a comment.
October 30th, 2006 at 11:22 pm
Sorry mate, but you’re way off on this one. Spurs are scum, and that’s final.
October 30th, 2006 at 11:28 pm
Wow. My eyes. One word…paragraphs.
But I appreciate your enthusiasm. I think you’ve come upon your POV fairly and it doesn’t really matter what anyone else thinks. You’ll be a fan however works for you (I say still sitting here in my Maroon 02 pullover because I’m only just now adjusting to the idea of wearing Fly Emirates).
October 31st, 2006 at 12:05 am
You've obviously never walked into school on a Monday morning after a defeat, and had the piss ripped out of you!
October 31st, 2006 at 1:14 am
I didn’t understand all the banter and hatre that went on until I experienced it first hand when I was in London last December.
In Canada, I’d religiously wore my Arsenal shirt every Saturday in support of the Gunners, and few locals here could care less what I was wearing. I had never experienced banter before while in Canada regarding my support for Arsenal, except for one of my buddy who is a Manc. So I decided to do the same for my 4-day trip to London, wore a different Arsenal kit / polo that I had each day.
While in London, I went to a couple places, two day trips to Cambridge / Oxford / Bicester / Salisbury. Everywhere I went people looked at me funny, they must be thinking what the hell is a Gooner doing outside of London, some of them were obviously supporters of their local teams and saw my prescence as somewhat trespassing. Most would just give me dirty looks but some actually went as far as comming over to give me some banter about how Arsenal is playing poorly at the moment, nothing vicious though. The worst was when I went to Cambridge on the Sunday to watch the EPL game where Chelsea won 2-0 at Highbury. For some reason I was not very comfortable taking off my jacket to show off my Arsenal Kit, namely because the pub was full of Manc and Blues, not to mention a couple Spuds sitting nearby. Even then, they spotted me wearing an Arsenal Kit underneath my jacket and decided to come over and start giving me **AYE CARUMBA**(censored) about how the team is inferior, how we’re in a transitional season, how TH14 is overrated, just lots of banter to the point that I was annoyed at not being able to enjoy my time with my friends (not that losing 2-0 was enjoyable anyways).
The next day I went to the British Museum, again wearing a differnt Arsenal Kit this time. Well, when I went to the coat check guess what? It was a couple of Spuds working and as soon as they saw me they started the banter again on how we’ve already lost like 5 times already and it’s only mid-way thru December and losing to **AYE CARUMBA**(censored) teams like WBA. One of them even said “eww.. you’re checking in that filtly arsenal bag and making me dirty my hands”.. so I just kindly replied “well, true.. i wouldn’t want to dirty your pockets either with those dirty pound notes… anyways I just went to a differernt coat check.
Just as I thought my day was thru, one of my buddy decided to visit his cousin who lived, you’ve guessed it, in Tottenham. As we drove through the neighbourhood near White hart Lane, the locals would see me in the car with the Arsenal kit, and started making v-signs and calling names (I couldn’t hear clearly).
Now I’m not saying after this experience it made me want to start hating Spurs (or Chelsea or Mancs) but I do understand its hard NOT to hate your rivals if you live in an environment where banter is in your face whether you asked for it or not.
So do I hate the spurs? sure, but not in the sense that I hate each player personally, but just makes supporting arsenal and celebrating St. Sir Totteringham day each year the more enjoyable. Banter is everywhere in football, so get with the program and join the “fun”. Cheers!
October 31st, 2006 at 3:50 am
My sense of rivalry (rather than hate) with Spurs really stems from the school playground where as a child at my school in North London, you were either Arsenal or Spurs. It felt intense at the time (1980s) as both clubs were quite even and would regularly beat each other.
But I can understand why you don’t feel such animosity to Spurs as you haven’t had to go through that dread of going to school or work on the Monday after a defeat, knowing the abuse you’re going to get. Also, in the last ten years, it’s hard to say that Spurs have even competed with us. I think we’ve only lost once to them!
But to give you a sense of how most Gooners feel about Spurs, next time we have a bad result, go to college dressed with nothing but a ‘kick me’ sign taped to your back and whatever reaction you might get, multiply by a hundred. Then you might understand!
October 31st, 2006 at 4:08 am
Well, i'm sorry if it offended you or anyone else. I mean, that was not my intention.
October 31st, 2006 at 4:13 am
Well guys, I guess I was wrong on this one. But I just wrote what I honestly felt. Like, I know I haven't been a goon as long as a lot of the other guys who read this. And I see where you are coming from. But these are just my honest opinions. Any hey, who knows, my opinion might change over time. As Arsenal evolves though time, so will by support for them. I might have different outlooks on anything Arsenal down the line. But yes, I am sorry if it offended or struck everyone hard. But I just wrote from what my heart was telling me.
October 31st, 2006 at 4:42 am
The teams I dislike in order of hate:
1. Spuds (Our experience with them last season has increased the level of hate to something I just can't describe…I really hate the spuds)
2. Bolton Wanderers (Their football is the biggest illustration of all that is wrong with the English game today)
3. Mancs…(they were probably up there but recently I've softened abit but they still gimme the greatest pleasure to beat whenever we beat them)
4. Chelsea (Morinho, Abrahamovic, $$$)
I guess everyone is entitled to hate any club for whatever reason they may perceive and i don't think any Gooner would really be that annoyed with u if they found out u didn't hate the spuds as much as some of us loathe them…I guess you need to have a reason to hate.
October 31st, 2006 at 7:29 am
Your point makes sense to me. I have stated that I don’t “hate” Spurs either… simply because they don’t pose a real threat to us very often. Having NOT grown up in London, we don’t truly understand or have a feel for “the rivalry”.
I DO understand the rivalry though… because having grown up in Boston… as a Red Sox fan… I HATE the Yankees. So, I get it. I understand where the dislike or hate for Spurs is born.
But as Americans, we don’t have the same feelings towards Spurz… they simply aren’t good enough to bring about the passion that “HATE” needs… in order to occur!
October 31st, 2006 at 8:05 am
Does anyone know where the true rivalary started?
It was when Arsenal were supposed to be relegated from the top division, and at the time in the FA there was an Arsenal director. He reversed the decision and Spurs got relegated.
Most people in the UK have their own stories of Cup Semi Finals, abuse at work or school.
If you support a team, in any sport, you want them to be the best. I mean who actually wants there team to be the worst?
So if your neighbour or friend is saying there team is better than yours you take offense to it.
Over the last 10 years or so Spurs have done poorly, we expect to beat them, and they dont really challenge for titles or cups. We have beeb lucky as we have done well.
The real competition to Arsenal is from Man U and Chelsea.
In a room full of gooners I can admit that I can be jealous of both of them, the players they have, and the success they have had. Man U and Arsenal challenged for most Prem title in the first 8 years of AW reign.
But look at Liverpool and Everton, they are neighbours but currently Liverpool are the stronger, and in Manchester there is united or City. City dont win things like Man U.
Chelsea, dont have any real history. They would like a local neighbour, but theirs is Fulham.
I am sure in the US there must be the same thing, even if it is in College football or something like that.
October 31st, 2006 at 8:18 am
I can understand your point of view, especially being a fairly new Gooner myself. However, I think that if you are a fan of a team, it is natural to hate the rival club. I have been a lifelong fan of the University of Michigan and have no problem at all rooting each autumn weekend for Michigan and whoever plays against Ohio State. I feel the same way about Arsenal. I cheer for them and for whoever is playing against Spurs, Man U, Chelsea and Bolton. When these clubs play each other I hope for draws.
October 31st, 2006 at 9:14 am
Read a piece of comment by the SPECIAL ONE. Now he’s suggesting his former player Gudjohnsson now LEARNED how to DIVE since moving to Barcelona. Jesus, it seems like everytime he opened his mouth, he came out with some utterly rubbish.
The man must has a short-term memory. When he was with his former club Porto, playing against Celtic in the UEFA Cup final, and against Man U a year later in CL, those two games I had withnessed some most unbelivable DIVING/CHEATING/PLAY ACTING act from his team Porto. Even when I have always been an anti-Man u fans, I cheered when Roy Keane stamped on their ‘keeper’s back. Served him right, those cheaters.
Now the man had sin himself started to cast the stone.. worst still, on one of his former players, AGAIN.
He is just so classless.
October 31st, 2006 at 9:31 am
The rivalry started when, after WWI, the league had a vote to choose which clubs would be included in an expansion. Thanks to some wheeling and dealing, Arsenal procured promotion to the top division despite finishing much lower than Spurs in the table. Also, Arsenal had moved from South London to within two miles of Spurs, so that felt like encroachment to the Spuds.
October 31st, 2006 at 9:33 am
Not offended at all. Just, having been to a North London derby, I can tell you first hand the hatred that hangs in the air. Several ArseAmers went to Spuds away last season, and can all attest to how much they hate us.
October 31st, 2006 at 10:33 am
How childish you all are in your replies. I have supported Arsenal for 25 years, but I don’t hate anyone, least of all Tottenham. Sure, I want them to lose - every match, it’s funny when they lose - that’s part of a healthy rivalry, but when push comes to shove I don’t hate them.
I’m not a big fan of Defoe, but I think Keane is an excellent player and would have loved us to buy him, in fact I still think he’s good enough for Arsenal and would fit in brilliantly - he’s so clever on the ball with great technique.
It doesn’t matter if you’ve been a gooner for one day or 1000 days, if you have a fondness for the team and follow their games then you’re a supporter. Some Arsenal fans no doubt live 1 mile from the ground and watch all their games on TV, others live 200 miles away and go to every match they can. Distance has nothing to do with how much of a supporter you are or how passionate you are in your support. Sure, if you meet someone who has been going to Highbury for 30 years they might have more knowledge than you and a better understanding of the club’s history, that makes for interesting conversation - but then that person might have spent 30 years booing at players or getting on their backs, these people do exist.
So our rivalrly with Spurs, it’s a laugh, a joke. All that matters is what Arsenal wins at the end of the season, these games are small but entertaining part of that. Anyone who has some form of festering hatred, unfortunately quite a few Arsenal fans, are childish, demented, pathetic and need to get a life.
October 31st, 2006 at 10:36 am
First you publish a comment saying that “Hate” is only a word. When someone says I hate Man U or Chelsea or Spurs, it doesn’t mean they want to kill them.”, then you say that “You cheered when Roy Keane stamped on their keeper’s back”. Hmmm, spot the irony in those remarks.
October 31st, 2006 at 11:31 am
The thing is, Danny, the way you wrote, and the words you chose to use here, seems to express a greater HATRED than anyone who replied to this original post here.
October 31st, 2006 at 11:35 am
Childish, Demented, Pathetic and need to get a life?? Who???? You mean us???? Arsenal fans????
OK……… so you don’t hate the Scums, you hate us!
October 31st, 2006 at 12:34 pm
Danny, you probably could have made you very salient/relevant post without all the uneccessary vitriol.
jhamoy…I don’t think your original thread requires an apology for anything other than the horrible formatting. It was a fair point, as most of the replies have been. The concensus seems to be as you suspected…it does tend to have something to do with geography and length of service. I was watching Spurs match with West Ham last week and turned my friend (a Liverpool supporter) and said I’m really supposed to hate these guys, but it’s still more intellectual than emotional right now.
As other have mentioned, though, I have analogous rivalries. I’m a Giants fan who lives in Redskins country and I can not stand the ’skins and always wish them ill. For me, around here the most obnoxious footie fan I know is a Man U(re) supporter. It’s been really easy for me to build up a healthy dislike for them in a hurry. Whatever works.
Bottom line: I think which teams we hate are less important that one team we are all here to support.
October 31st, 2006 at 1:08 pm
What’s vitriolic about saying that people who hate are childish, demented and pathetic? That’s not a display of hate, more a display of pity.
October 31st, 2006 at 1:11 pm
I think the point you're all missing is the fact that the football you watch nowadays is the middle class, gentrified, all seater version. High ticket prices have meant that you get a much 'nicer' class of fan. That hasn't always been the case. In the days of open terracing, you literally took your life in your hands going to some away grounds. Unless you were mad, or were sure of a police escort, you would never wear your colours to another ground, especially a London one. Fights and stabbings weren't that unusual. Even good old Highbury has had it's moments. I will never forget being trapped up on the North Bank when the whole end was 'taken' by the InterCity Firm (West Ham). We're talking about skinhead fascist thugs, not college kids! I can honestly say that some of the most terrifying moments of my life have happened watching football. If you went to a northern ground, you always kept your mouth shut, as having a London accent was a complete giveaway. When you've been brought up in that kind of atmosphere, the word hatred takes on a slightly different edge, believe me.
Incidentally, to the bloke who said you never see Spurs fans about, I did actually meet one on the ferry to Sausalito, the other day, complete with replica shirt! We were remarkably civil to each other.
Mark
October 31st, 2006 at 1:33 pm
You’re right about that. I do remember when going to Highbury was less than safe and Highbury has always been one of the better grounds - but having said that I’ve still had my encounters with evil, it’s almost unavoidable.
Thankfully it’s much, much better now - maybe, as you suggest, that’s because it’s only affordable to the middle-classes, whereas the poorly educated, lower classes are more likely to cause trouble. But then you look abroad at certain countries, like Italy and the middle-classes are throwing bananas and making monkey noises. If that’s not hate, what is? It’s beyond belief, and the punishments are beyond belief - the clubs over there actually don’t even care about it unless they think they’re in line for a punishment.
October 31st, 2006 at 9:32 pm
jhamoy,
Good post. you brought up some good points.
Thinking about it more, I end up hating, or intensely disliking, players more than teams. And if enough players that I dislike are on the same team, i probably will not like that team. Manu is probably on the top of my list- Horseface( trying to injure Ash and many more things), Keane( to end a guys career on purpose and then write about it in a book??), Potato head( diver), Neville( funniest thing I have ever seen- to kick a ball right at a spectator and then to look like he had no idea what he did was wrong), and I could continue. Bolton is also towards the top of my list not so much for the players, but for the manager.
I had the opportunity to travel to Buenos Aires earlier this year on business and made it to a River Plate-Quilmes match at River with some Argentine friends who were big River supporters. Good game. They told me some stories about the River-Boca rivalry, now that is some serious hate.