and Freddie makes none…
July 23, 2007
Arsenal today announced that they have sold Freddie Ljungberg to West Ham for an undisclosed fee (although the BBC and SKY say it’s about 3.3 million pounds). Freddie’s departure truly marks the end of an era. At nine years, he was the longest-serving Arsenal player, and the last of the great “Double” side of 2001-2002. Freddie’s form has definitely dropped off in recent years, but that’s mostly due to injury. If he stays healthy, West Ham have just gotten themselves a bargain.
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July 23rd, 2007 at 9:36 am
Goodluck to him! Hopefully he can string a few games together to make a proper impact.
July 23rd, 2007 at 9:39 am
AW summed it up perfectly – Freddie is a winner and always gave absolutely everything when he played for this Club.
Freddie, we love you because you are red through and through.
July 23rd, 2007 at 9:44 am
Our loss, their gain… for 3 million?!
He wanted to go, so good luck to him.
Not sure what this says when he’d choose West Ham over Arsenal… other than he probably wouldn’t be guaranteed playing time.
We could have used his experience. The guard has completely changed. We have very little in the way of experiened players who’ve won titles.
I suppose it will give more playing time to younger players.
July 23rd, 2007 at 9:46 am
All in all we need just two ingredients to challenge this next season:
1) 50% less injuries
2) Collecting at least 12 out of our first 15 points.
IF these two happen I can guarantee top-2 finish because the quality is there. However if we lose or draw our first match, then we will be playing catchup from the very beginning….and this young squad just doesnt have “boucebackability” yet. They will have that in two years not now.
As it stands our squad for the CL qualifier will be:
——————————-Lehmann————————————
——————————————————————————-
Sagna———–Toure——————Gallas—————Clichy
——————————————————————————-
Hleb————–Diaby————–Fabregas————Rosicky
——————————————————————————–
——————–Adebayor———Van Persie———————
Bench: Fabianski, Hoyte, Senderos, Walcott, Denilson, Eduardo, Bendtner.
This should be able to overpower a generic East European side…considering our squad for last years qualifier was much worse!
Anyway, I hope we do get a rather weak team … and definitely nobody from Germany, Italy or Spain! A nice Irish or Welsh team would do just fine!
July 23rd, 2007 at 9:50 am
stag, what f-cking experience are u talking about??? the experience of scoring 1 goal in 2 seasons??? moaning about henry leaving is one thing…but moaning about ljunberg leaving is retarded!
July 23rd, 2007 at 9:51 am
definately passed his prime and can’t be counted on due to injuries that seem to be a recurring problem. Too high a salary to have on the club given his production drop off. Notice that no one even talked about Freddie leading into the season.
Had a great run though and was a tremendous contributer when healthy and able.
The only thing that drives me crazy though is the comments that every player makes when they leave a club. Freddie goes on to talk about how he was promised big signings coming into the club in recent years and felt that he didn’t want to be a part of rebuildning with Henry having left. Freddie then goes on to say that he is excited by the rebuilding process that is going on at West Ham, noting their excellent academy, etc. How can you be more excited by rebuiling with West Ham?
I know it is all lip service and that every player who has left any club says it, but it always drives me crazy and why don’t people (media, fans, etc.) call players out on this garbage?
July 23rd, 2007 at 9:52 am
I do feel that this will liberate Walcott on the right wing. This will be a big year for him. We have seen the youngsters mature, but only when they were given playing time, and often at the cost of some points. I still believe Wenger will sign a winger but probably not anybody we have heard of.
Apart from the experience, we will miss the winning mentality of the players who left. Freddie, Henry, Campbell, Bergkamp, Vieira and Pires were all winners who cannot be replaced just like that. It’s no coincidence that none of them were winners at the club level before they came to Arsenal (with the possible exception of Bergkamp). The youngsters will gain experience along the way. Hopefully they will pick up a winning mentality too.
July 23rd, 2007 at 9:53 am
I’ll miss Freddie. and the fact that I won’t get to sing his song when I finally get to see the Arsenal in England. Good Luck to him, although I hope we trounce his new side twice this season.
July 23rd, 2007 at 9:55 am
Good luck Freddie, I hope you are happy there.
Now, I think this was expected, he wasn’t performing well for the past couple of seasons, and it was a matter of time when he was going to be sold. The reported fee of around 3.5 mil. is in my opinion a good business, coz you just can’t sell a player who 30 years old with a high wage for more than that. Who would buy him for, let’s say 6/7 mil and match his current wage? No one, so this is a good business, we have saved some money from his wage too.
Should we expect Wenger to sign another winger now, especially if Reyes leaves too? Or AW will decide to give Randall a chance in the first team? We don’t know yet, and only the time will tell.
July 23rd, 2007 at 10:01 am
@ nipuna, u right, more playing time for walcott is good. now we really need to balance things and buy a backup for rosicky at LM.
also: yeah we do miss the experience of those veterans like Freddie, Henry, Campbell, Bergie, Vieira, Pires……but lets remember that even though they were “winners” in the PL context…they were still “chokers” in the European and “winning-two-titles-in-a-row” context.
this team at fruition in a couple of years will be great. how great? we will find out.
July 23rd, 2007 at 10:04 am
Good luck to Freddie, I hope his injuries clear up but can’t see it happening. He should have gone to Italy where it’s less physical.
4 goals in 2 years?? Not good enough. Pace has gone. £70k a week. Total no-brainer to get rid. If Freddie was anything like the player he was I’d love him to stay. But £3m + £3.6m saved in wages is great business – after a third year on the sidelines, he’d be so forgotten about he’d probably have to go on a free.
July 23rd, 2007 at 10:04 am
The squad average age is 22.5, only outfield players included. Now imagine this team in a couple of seasons, do you believe there will be a team able to match us?
July 23rd, 2007 at 10:11 am
I know that it is tough to see the players that produced great things in the past leave the squad, but why is it people get so upset about this. He has done nothing but cash his checks for 2 years!
Freddie was like an old boat…when he was running, he was afternoons of endless fun, when he wasn’t running he was nothing but a cash dump! I fear that Henry is closer to this path as well. Maybe I am wearing my Arsenal glasses here, but only time will tell.
I think that this will be great for Arsenal and Theo Walcott. Now Theo can go about his business his way and avoid the comparisons to Freddie and the rest of the old gaurd.
It is quite appearent that Arsene will not pay for past performance. We should want it no other way.
July 23rd, 2007 at 10:24 am
The more I think about what is going on with Arsenal and the selling of “the invincibles,” the more and more I think back to the great Boston Celtics teams of the 80’s.
I don’t know if any of you even follow the NBA, but my beloved Boston Celtics took the exact opposite path that Arsenal is taking right now. Having assembled arguably the greatest team ever, they chose not to trade Larry Bird, Kevin McHale, Robert Parrish, Dennis Johnson, etc. in order not to cause a major riot throughout the city of Boston and a lack of balls by management.
The end result was watching aging stars struggle to take the court due to injury and when they could, they performed at 50-75% of what they once were. Had they begun trading these players when their decline was showing in 1988-90 vs riding them out until 1992-95 they would have been able to get young players in return. But they didn’t. The Boston Celtics have sucked since 1990! That is the price you pay when you don’t overhaul your roster at the right time.
You don’t want to be a Boston Celtics fan right now…in fact there aren’t many Boston Celtics fans right now!
July 23rd, 2007 at 10:32 am
Why not? Pierce and Allen are enough for the team to reach the playoffs
)))))
July 23rd, 2007 at 10:42 am
Ahh Celtics bascketball. Its faaaaaantastic. Good years = 3-4 palyoff games and an average draft pick. Bad years= just enough wins to miss out on a good draft pick. THE SWEET LIFE RIGHT THERE!
July 23rd, 2007 at 11:07 am
This age thing is a big deal. Everyone seems to think ManU will be just as good this year. I for one do not. Scholes and neville are 32 Giggs 33 Ole and silvestre are both over 30.
There is not much chance in my opinoin that Giggs and Scholes can play those midfield positions as well as they did last year again. Darn near career years for both.
Liverpool might struggle to find the net early in the year while Torres and Voronin adapt.
Chelsea with their big egos might just fall apart if the going gets tough early on.
Sprus have too many new players to challenge for more than a UEFA spot.
I realize these are a bunch of big IFS but I don’t beleive my analysis is far off.
Oh yeah good luck Freddie.
July 23rd, 2007 at 11:17 am
Yeah emonahan, exactly! I stayed in Massachuttes early of the 90s, and it was the time Celtics really struggled. The sight of a washup McHale and Parrish carrying the team struggling to even make the playoff was pretty sad.
Anyway, in football terms, let’s look no further than Liverpool of the early 90s. Kenny Dalglish was guilty on relying too much on his veteran stars, rarely gave any youngstersa chance. and when he left, Souness took over, he found himself facing a massive rebuilding process. The whole “rebuliding process” has not lasted for nearly two decades, they are still “rebuilding”.
so i can’t understand how anyone could think we are not heading towards the right direction with all those kids coming up?
imagine had we never sold any of our “Invincible” squad the past two years, and we are still relying that squad for the coming season, we are going to have a hugh problem.
July 23rd, 2007 at 11:24 am
One name I thought to put out there: Rafael van der Vaart.
Left-footed, 24 yrs old, good-work ethic, high goalscoring (he even has a better average than Pires!), plays in germany (wengers favorite fishing place for midfielders!), would likely cost about 10 million (i think).
He plays mostly central, but so did Hleb and Rosicky. Infact he would fit Wenger`s profile perfectly.
Van der vaart, Rosicky, Hleb and Walcott would look really good!
July 23rd, 2007 at 11:35 am
Good luck to Freddie, he gave us several good years. I hope he does well for the Hammers. I believe the time was right for him to move on and let Walcott and some of the other youngsters move in.
July 23rd, 2007 at 12:01 pm
Best of luck to Freddie. I will miss him ghosting in to the box and scoring crucial goals. But it is quite obvious I have been missing that for two or three years now, so it is good business to let him go now. Nipuna is right. Freddie did not have the experience that some people are clamoring for when he came here. Yet, he stepped right in and scored crucial goals that helped us win trophies. He was a true winner. I hope the next winger we choose to buy has the winning qualities that Freddie had whether he has experience or not. Thanks for the memories Freddie!
July 23rd, 2007 at 12:23 pm
emon…
Ummm, you can’t be serious… the lack of the Celtics success is very much down to BAD LUCK.
a) LEN BIAS DIED… he would have been the link to a few more title runs
b) REGGIE LEWIS DIED… he was a helluva player
c) The PING-PONG BALL didn’t bounce our way with TIM DUNCAN, or WE would have won a few of the titles the SanAntonio Spurs did…
d) The PING-PONG BALL didn’t bounce our way this year either… so despite having the 2nd worst record, we didn’t get Odon or Durant.
Not sure how the Celtics were to blame for ANY of the above… unless you want to blame them for not knowing Lenny Bias was going to overdose on coke the night after he got drafted?!
The FACT is… the Celtics are about Winning Championships. They aren’t interested in being competitive and playing to be a good team, they are trying to win the title. Everything thing else is failure. Thats why we held on to our great players too long. If Bias didn’t die, we’d probably have had another title or 2 with the big Three (Bird/Parish/McHale) at the end of their careers.
Now, the idea that Freddie’s 2 goals aren’t enough… sure, but neither are Hleb’s 2, or Fabregas’ 4, or Theo’s 1… or Rosicky’s 5…
Ray Parlour didn’t bang in a lot of goals either in his last few years, but he ran his socks off for the team, and provided the experience and tenacity that helped the club win matches.
Its not all about statistics, because if it were, the midfield (other than Gilberto’s 11 goals) was a complete failure on the scoresheet.
July 23rd, 2007 at 12:27 pm
Freddie, we love(d) you because you have (had) red hair…that was a really weird t-shirt, to be honest.
July 23rd, 2007 at 12:27 pm
Some of us called this move. We knew it would come this year; and I am glad it did. It was time for Freddie to go……Don’t get me wrong, I like Freddy and he has served us well but it was his time. I just wish he would be honest as he leaves:
WH are rebuilding adn he is excited about THEIR rebuilding???….Come on please.
WH have a great academy…..Yes but get serious please.
WH barely stayed in the top flight, and only based on heroics of Tevez, who is on his way out. So i don’t see how this is a move up for him.
Just be honest with the fans……
No disrespect to Hammers, though.
I think (hope) that AW will buy another player (winger) with the sale of Freddy and Reyes….we will need it.
July 23rd, 2007 at 1:10 pm
A move good for all parties: West Ham got their man… Arsenal got the cash… Freddie got more first team chances.
Knowing Freddie, I don’t think he’s those who would be happy to just warm the bench (SWP do u got pride?). The reason he left I suspect it was AW can no longer guarantee him first team football.
Doesn’t matter what he says to the press, important thing is he DID always give his ALL when playing for us.
So all the best to Ljungberg, hopefully he will do well for the Hammers, apart when playing against us!
July 23rd, 2007 at 1:11 pm
stag, dont twist facts…in the last league season, ljungberg scored zero goals, zero assists, zero created chances.
hleb and rosicky might take stick for their lack of goals….but they CREATE tons!
moan about something else, please.
July 23rd, 2007 at 1:21 pm
“Now, the idea that Freddie’s 2 goals aren’t enough… sure, but neither are Hleb’s 2, or Fabregas’ 4, or Theo’s 1… or Rosicky’s 5…”
Stag, the only difference is that Hleb, Walcott, Rosicky and Cesc can all improve and Freddie is going the other way. And that is a BIG diferrence.
And you honestly believe that Celtics would have won the NBA in the ‘89, ‘90 or ‘91? They would have beaten Detroit marshaled by Thomas and Dumars? That’s a joke man, get serious.
July 23rd, 2007 at 1:27 pm
Good luck to Freddie on his move. He gave us many great years and played with the passion of a Gunner.
The same passion which we admired him for throughout the years is probably why he is leaving. He ultimately knows he would have few chances to play with the first team on a regular basis and like many an old boxer, he just can’t figure out that his best days are behind him.
This opens up the option of us buying a winger especially with Reyes also leaving and also opens up the field for Walcott to get more playing time. Ultimately, only time will tell if Walcott will seize the moment and become a future Arsenal legend.
I would deign to guess who Arsene will go after at this moment as my only correct assumption this year has been Sagna. However, this should inspire the Paparazzi to provide us with a host of rumors and speculation over the next 2 weeks.
Drenthe, Martins, who the hell knows? Only Arsene and his few trusted scouts know for sure.
On the topic of this upcoming season, I genuinely agree with a former post that Manu is going to struggle this year because of their aging squad. The young newcomers will take time to adjust and Scholes, Giggs and Neville will never repeat their performances of last year.
My fear is that Chelsea is going to dominate with just a few tweaks in their squad and having the stability of their base team back from last year. Position by position they are without weakness and their second team would beat many current Premiership first elevens. Our only hope there is for Drogba to get injured in the ANC.
Liverpool will need time to blend their players in and Spurs will be Spurs, exciting to watch on offense but severely lacking in the midfield and wing defense.
I pick the Gunners to be runner ups this year as long as we can stay relatively healthy. We had way too many “soft injuries” (groin strains, hamstring pulls, etc) last year and hope that the training staff has noticed and will take remedial action. We still play the greatest football in the world and we have a squad which will dominate in the near future.
July 23rd, 2007 at 1:54 pm
I agree that Man U will probably struggle this year…..Aging squad and the other bits…..If Ronaldo gets an injury, then it’s lights out.
I also agree that Chelsea will be the favs to win it. they have made some very smart (and inexpensive) addiitons this year. If they get a good start and stay healthy, it will be near impossible to dismantle them.
July 23rd, 2007 at 2:06 pm
Yes, good luck to Freddie. A significant name in the modern-day history of the club.
This was a transfer that had to happen for Arsenal – he had no significant role to play, and his last two years speak for themselves. I can’t see wanting to keep him for the future – it would serve no purpose other than potentially taking away playing time from others who need it to keep developing. I grew tired of watching him play last season.
I don’t know if this is necessarily a good move for WHU – hard to tell what they’re doing at the moment given the Tevez situation.
I must say that the quotes attributed to Freddie do bother me – I think he knew he was not part of any plan for the future, so I would likely feel the same way, but I hope I would not say the same things.
July 23rd, 2007 at 2:46 pm
Sheed thanks for having my back hoss.
Not to turn this into a Celtics thread but…
Stag-
Len Bias’ and Reggie Lewis’ deaths played a part. Who knows what would have been of Bias, all signs pointed to star, but since he died shortly after being drafted, who knows. Reggie Lewis was a good player, I don’t feel that he was a great player, and had he not died, I don’t think that #35 would be up in rafters.
But neither of those two on their own or colelctively would have won championships with Bird lying on his stomach unable to play with a bad back. Kevin McHale’s feet falling apart ruining any ability for him to play 30+ minutes more than twice a week (at his peak fitness). Robert Parrish, while he never really had a singular, chronic, physical ailment’s of Bird or McHale, was seriously in decline and had been downgraded to a role player. Sheed is right, they would have got beat by the Pistons & Bulls, they would have got beaten by the Cavs, Blazers, Lakers or Rockets.
Back to Arsenal:
The point is that you need star players in their prime if you are going to win championships. That is what it is all about at Arsenal right? Winning championships? If you look at your team and recognize that the majority of players show limited growth & probable decline moving forward, it is management’s job and responsibility to forget about the fans and BLOW IT UP!
With the selling of Henry and Freddie, Arsenal have just finished the reconstruction of their roster. Arsenal have done this without greatly altering their financial income (payouts in CL and consistenly finishing in the top 4).
Arsenal are now in the process of rebuilding their roster. They are gathering pieces, determining who are going to be stars, role players, etc. They are probalby (and hopefully) entering their 3rd and final year in this phase.
Over the next 2-3 transfer periods you should see big dollars being splashed around by Arsenal as they look to find those seasoned players that will complete the roster and allow them to truely challenge for championships without question. They have the funds from the sale of all the invincibles and increased revenue from the Emirates, but it just doesn’t make sense to use those funds right now.
You don’t go out and splash big money around in transfers just to go from 20 points back to 8 points back. You splash the big money around to go from 12 or 8 points back to 1st. They have a good, promising young nucleus of players right now. If those young players prove that they are for real, and position Arsenal to 6-8 points back or better by January or the end of the season; then at that time I’d think that Arsenal would throw that money at the big ticket items available on the market. But right now Arsenal stand 20+ points away from an EPL championship, it doesn’t make sense to throw around the big dollars right now.
They don’t want to put the big screen TV w/surround sound, an indoor pool and gourmet kitchen in a 2 bed room house on the wrong side of town(Spurs); they want to put all that in the luxurious 5 bed room colonial built on the side of a hill over looking the ocean(Arsenal). It seems that they are building that luxurious house on the hill as we speak, and if you ask me, it’s pretty close to completion. When construction is finsihed I think you’ll see Arsene start buying some toys to finish it off!
You could have held on to Freddie for another year or two, but what was that going to give you…experience and leadership? Let’s suppose that he was leading his arse off last year…was it worth 70K a week? No its not worth it, you sell high while you still can. You think that Wenger isn’t psyshed to see that 6+ million in his kitty right now? Arsene will probably throw an extra pat of butter on his croissant tomorrow morning in utter jubilation that someone was stupid enough to take a that kind of a flyer on Freddie at this point in his career. Nothing against Freddie.
Great things lay ahead my friends.
July 23rd, 2007 at 3:16 pm
emonahan, you’re damn eloquent!
i agree with you completely on all accounts.
July 23rd, 2007 at 3:19 pm
Yep, me too.
July 23rd, 2007 at 3:19 pm
I don’t see Arsenal spending big money in the next few transfer periods to bring in seasoned players. Why would/should they?
They have an abundance of youth, and it would appear that AW is looking to build the squad to let it roll as is. Those kids WILL be the experienced players in a season or so, and Arsenal will still be in the top 4 at seasons end in May.
Not too worried about Freddie leaving anyways. I always liked him, but with his best (and even second best) days being behind him, it was time to make way for new blood. If he was concerned about Arsenal though, I reckon he’ll really be complaining after the Irons get relegated to the Championship…
Meanwhile, Pedro Silva’s signing is a big step for the future of the midfield. We’ll have to keep an eye on his progress at Salamanca. Hopefully Angelito gets signed soon — once he makes the senior Argy squad, he’ll be able to procure a work permit so AW can lend him out to an English club and get acclimated to the rain and weather, and by this time next year, Arsenal will have talented depth to go with the talented starters in the middle.
July 23rd, 2007 at 3:51 pm
Wenger is not someone to waste money. He is not going to buy a player if there is no room in the squad. Assuming that Reyes also leaves, there is now one non-locally trained space in the Arsenal European squad.
For the 2007/08 season you have two lists, List A and List B. List B is for kids, the players must be born after 1 January 1986 with two uniterrupted years at the club since their 15th birthday. By my reckoning, this includes Fabregas, Djourou, Song, Bendtner, Mannone, Randall, Lansbury, Gavin Hoytre and Jay Simpson. As these players qualify under List B, you do not need to include them under List A and that frees up space. Other youngsters such as Merida and Barazite have only one year at the club and do not qualify.
List A can be divided into two parts 19 players can come from anywhere. The other six must be locally-trained, either club or association-trained, with no more than three association trained. A locally trained player has spent three years at the club (or in the association) between the ages of 15 and 21. While Fabregas and Djourou also qualify under this rule, there is no need to block spaces available for others. Senderos, Clichy, Hoyte and Ryan Garry are club-trained while Walcott and O’Cearuill are association-trained.
That leaves Lehmann, Diaby, Sagna, Toure, Rosicky, Eduardo, Gallas, Van Persie, Hleb, Denilson, Flamini, Gilberto, Fabianski, Almunia, Adebayor, Eboue, Traore and Nordtveit. 18 players. One space available, two if Nordtveit isn’t going to play this season. Realistically, there is also space for two association-trained players (i.e. brought up in England) to replace Garry and O’Cearuill. That would suggest to me that someone like Curtis Davies may still be a possibility because of his nationality if the price is right (to replace Garry or O’Cearuill). A left-winger from Eastern Europe or South America would make up the 19. Of course, if Reyes stays, he is the 19th player. Wait for the Reyes announcement and then wait for a new signing.
July 23rd, 2007 at 5:21 pm
as emonahan said some comments above:
- i expect wenger to wait a year or two for this crop to really gel – as i am sure they would.
- when it really gels and team is showing signs of real greatness and is just about 6 or 7 points from the top, i then expect him to sign just one or two very super players to solve any outstanding problems. for instance he could splash big-time on one massive central defender that would seal our defense long term.
he has revamped and restructured the team completely and utterly, retained our extremely attractive play, reduced the average age of the team by over 5 years and moved us to a new stadium WITHOUT spending much and without leaving the top-4.
thats the handiwork of a genius!
July 23rd, 2007 at 5:29 pm
Yes, Fred — doing this without leaving the Top 4 is not like this is normally done (e.g., baseball teams that ‘rebuild’ by first carpet bombing and then seeing what the landscape looks like). I am going to really enjoy watching this team gel – AW has the framework of something really special.
July 23rd, 2007 at 5:51 pm
Fred, you are right.
If this team was to win something in the coming season, it would be more enjoyable than normal because of the way the team was built.
July 23rd, 2007 at 9:05 pm
Emon…
you have some valid points, but we don’t know what would have become of the C’s if Len Bias lived. We’ll never know, but they would have been in the mix in the East. No doubt about it.
You state that you need STAR players in their prime if you are going to win Championships. I couldn’t agree more. We have no star players. Period.
Not right now. We have some genuinely talented kids, with oodles of potentiall, who might, or might not become stars.
Thierry Henry was a star player in his prime. You surround star players with others, and that builds championship caliber teams. (Bird, w/McHale-Parish… or Henry, Vieira-Pires)…
We have no chance of winning the league this season. And Wenger is cleaning house of anyone remotely close to 30. Kids don’t win trophies. Its just fact.
I would suspect Gilberto will be gone next year along with Gallas.
Then the project becomes keeping the kids and team together… for 2, 3 or 4 years. In today’s footballing world, thats a very difficult task. Good players don’t always have the patience to wait for the “plan” to come to fruition.
I would say the only positive is, if Wenger is building an under 25 squad, then he’ll hopefully be around to see it to its completion.
July 23rd, 2007 at 9:22 pm
“We have no star players. Period.”
–I beg to differ. Cesc is as sought after a midfielder as any currently playing in in the EPL. Lehman is still a top flight goalkeeper. Kolo Toure, while not as well known as the John Terry’s and Jamie Carragher’s of the league, is as good a CB as they come. RvP is going to turn a lot of heads this season.
Just because Henry is gone, doesn’t mean that’s it.
“We have no chance of winning the league this season”
A ridiculous statement. EVERY team has a chance, albeit a smaller one for some and a greater one for others. That means even Derby and Wigan have a shot.
I don’t have a problem with you Stags, — other than your negativity, which is the main reason why I personally didn’t miss your posts while you were away.
Can’t you find some other outlet for your negativity? The new season hasn’t even begun and you’re already buried the club… so then why even bother coming on here then?
July 23rd, 2007 at 9:33 pm
To me this is like the mystery of the century and I want to have your opinion/guess. Which scenario is true:
1) What Edleman and Fiszman said in their statements was honest. Despite the debt the board has set aside big chunk of money for AW to spend, but he’s too stingy to buy big names.
2) Contrary to their statements, the board want to pay off the debt asap and thus leaves AW with almost no funds for new players so he has to sell in order to buy. While reducing debt, they’re waiting for a proper offer from anyone including Kronke to sell. Therefore we have AW’s reluctance to sign.
I have question marks over 2 as the published financial docs will show if the board’s been paying towards the principal. Don’t know if any of you read it and would like to explain. Thanks!
July 23rd, 2007 at 9:49 pm
rye…
Its not slanderous to say we don’t have star players.
Its just reality.
Cesc will be a star player. RVP hopefully will be. Kolo is very good, but I wouldn’t call him a star.
Buried the team? Why? Saying we can’t win the league is burying them?
Again, its opinion, and its reality, not negativity.
We could get 3rd of 4th. United, Liverpool, and Chelsea are probably going to finish ahead of us again.
I just call it as I see it. They’ve improved more than we have in my opinion, and they were ahead of us to start with.
We could be very good in a few years. The question will be can we stay in the top 4 this year, and can we keep the talented young players together to grow into the type of team we once were a few years back?
I hope so. It should be an interesting year… with some highs and lows and frustation against lesser teams. I think it will be much like last year. Which isn’t so bad, as long as we remain in the top 4 and the CL.
July 23rd, 2007 at 9:59 pm
You don’t need star players to win Championships. Who was the star of the Porto team that won the CL, or when the Pistons won the NBA title?
Even if you need a star player, we have plenty of players who are gonna be stars by the end of the season, such as RvP and Cesc, if they are not already. And don’t forget, we don’t buy stars we create them. Henry wasn’t a star when he came, why the fu*k you point to him. Same with Vieira and Pires. So, be patient and the results will come.
July 23rd, 2007 at 11:42 pm
Thanks, Freddie. Wish you well.
Fred, from post #4, did you forget Eboue?
July 24th, 2007 at 12:29 am
Would Freddie admit that he left because he was not getting enough chances? I guess not. His comments about not signing big name players is quite funny. Does it change the fact that he made near zero contribution in the last two years? On the contrary, if the big names had been signed, he probably would have been out earlier than now.
July 24th, 2007 at 3:53 am
Like I said yesterday, Freddie had to say something and that was easy to say but we all knew the writing was on the wall. And like I said last year, Dennis Bergkamp made Ljunberg look good.
Michael Magnus, I agree essentially with everything you say in post 28. Chelsea will be the best team. I think Malouda was a very good signing. I also think Spurs will be very strong as they’ve made very good but very expensive signings.
I also think a surprise team will be Everton. They have good young talent coming through the ranks and unlike their last time making Europe, they haven’t signed a bunch of foreign big names and have kept their team intact.
But everyone will be looking at what Arsenal will do. I expect them to be very strong.
July 24th, 2007 at 4:08 am
Joshuad, talking abt Dennis made Freddie look good, there is some truth abt it. It’s pretty much the same Pires, Henry, Dennis and Freddie all making each other look good with their intelligent and unselfish play.
On the other hand, I also feel that Andy Gray had killed Freddie’s game! I remember Freddie’s best season 2001/02, his trademark clever run – running across the back 4 then suddenly cut inside when he saw his teammates (often Dennis) was abt to release a pass.
The opposing defence fallen into the same trick time and time again. Then Sky’s Andy Gray, I remember, kept putting a spot on analysis on Freddie’s run, particular during a Bolton game and the final Man U game. I thought back then, now great, the sceret is out, the defenders now know how to stop Freddie!!
Teddy Sheringham once said he had a secret run that gave him an edge for years, not until Andy Gray revealed it again through his analysis, and it killed his move!
July 24th, 2007 at 5:14 am
It looks like we are not signing another winger. This is a statement from Wenger:
“On my front, I am just looking to develop the players we have here.
“Just in central midfield, for example, we have Abou Diaby, Denilson, Cesc Fabregas, Mathieu Flamini and Gilberto. In the wide positions we can play Aleksandr Hleb, Theo Walcott, Tomas Rosicky and EMMANUEL EBOUE. So we have plenty of players.
“All of these players are on their way up. They are not over the hill. Their level is still rising and they are getting better and better.”
As you see, he is planning to use Eboue as a right winger this season, but it is interesting to see who will be a back up for Rosicky at the left, Hleb or Walcott. Time will tell.
July 24th, 2007 at 5:19 am
Andez, I think you’re being a bit naive if you think managers did not know about Freddie’s “secret run”. It wasn’t much of a secret as he did it 50 times a season. The fact is it’s very difficult to pick up a player who runs from deep like that, and it’s very difficult to find a player like Bergkamp to deliver the perfect pass. These were world class players at the top of their game, unstoppable.
Bergkamp faded and so did Freddie, injury hampered both, they played less together, they played with different players, hence it slowly dissolved.
July 24th, 2007 at 5:24 am
I wasnt an Arsenal fan when Freddie signed for us. In fact one of the first few games I saw as an Arsenal fan was an FA CUP final against Chelsea where Freddie beautifully curled in one and Ray Parlour doubled the scoring with a similar strike some time later. I always used to watch Arsenal those days for watching DB10 and his artistry and used to wonder all the time why people rated Freddie so much when there were players many many times better than him.
But as I watched more and more football and reached a stage where I understood what made up a football team I realized that Freddie was special. I realized why there were rumours once of a Freddie – Luis Figo swap deal once. I realized that there were very few people who could torment defences in that unorthodox diagonal running style as Freddie at his peak could. I realized Freddie had bottle…a lot of it…a huge lot of it.
Freddie has been injured far too much recently with his migraine problems and his blood in the foot problems and hasn’t been able to give his best for us lately. But one thing you can never fault him on was for not trying. We had a Kolo thread where we discussed why Kolo was a fan’s player. Freddie is much of the same , even when he knows he’s crocked he will run his heart out. The CL final where he ploughed up front tirelessly running up and down the stade de France ..overworked but still never giving up raised my respect for him hugely.
Didn’t want to see you go Freddie , not for another year atleast so you’d get that testimonial you so richly deserved for being an integral part of Arsenal’s invincibles and winning history. Thanks for the moments and all the very best to you at Westham. Just dont rediscover your form against us…okay
. All the best again.
July 24th, 2007 at 5:24 am
I’d agree with Stag, that there are not many star players right now (Cesc really is the only one right now, his name being thrown in post season awards tells us this).
However, there is a group of players that have the opportunity to make that jump into star caliber (call them budding stars):
RVP -probably the most likely to make the jump and would most likely be mentioned above with Cesc had he not gotten injured.
Rosicky -had a good year 1 in the EPL. Given the experience and quality of play that he showed in glimpses last year, I don’t think that many would be surprised to see him take it to another level this year.
Adebayor -Looked good in flashes and with more consistant finishing, would have been a top 10 striker last year. It’s not like he doesn’t put himself in a good position for scoring goals, just needs to put more into the back of the net. If that happens, then he makes the leap.
Clichy -Looked solid in the back and got up the flanks well. Looked particularly effective against Ronaldo in the ManU contests, with Ronaldo even switching sides after 25 minutes in one of them. More consistency in tackling and delivering balls into the box when he makes those runs will afford him the jump, though he deffinately softened the blow of Cole leaving.
With Gilberto, Toure, Gallas and Hleb; I think you know what you are going to get from those guys. That’s not calling the 4 of them equals, but I don’t think we are going to see either of the 4 improve or decline next season. However, if one were to make a move upwards, you would think Hleb has the most room for improvement. Toure, Gallas and Gilberto are solid, dependable and rarely liabilities on the field.
Then there are another group of players that could vault themselves into a budding star or star caliber depending upon performance this year (call them the wild card group). Walcott, Diaby, Eboue and Denilson. All 4 could make a leap and to what level is to be determined. I could see Walcott put forward a stellar year this year and be considered top quality next year for instinance. However, there is less of a body of work, be it high quality play or playing time in general, with this group to have as true feeling that these players will make that jump to star status next year. More likely you will place the majority of this group into budding stars next year.
Then there is the Senderos, Djourou, Eduardo, Sagna and Bendtner group. You don’t know what you are going to get from this group. They are capable of anything because either there is no or limited body of work on them or their play is so inconsistant. You could see these players becoming budding stars, wild cards or getting thrown into the trash heap depending upon their performance this year.
I think Arsenal are in a good position this year to finish with more star players that they start the season with. Will that be enough to win the EPL this year? Depends on how many of these players make the leap to star status.
If Adebayor finds the back of net and RvP stays healthy, I think there are 40+ goals right there between the 2. You get 40+ from those 2 and you’ll see Walcott, Rosicky and Cesc have more room to manuver with the ball outside the box, and have an easier time getting away from markers on runs into the box. That will lead to goals for this trio and the best chance of seeing Hleb possibly make a leap up in status.
These are scenarios that could lead to Arsenal challenging for the EPL vs. finishing 20+ points out this year. All this is a wash though if we see old man injury rare his god forsaken head again though.
July 24th, 2007 at 6:28 am
Star Players?
People always want us to sign star players. Is Babel a star player? By the sounds of the crying from some people here when he went to Liverpool, he is. Then the same people say we have no star players. Yet Van Persie is a bigger player for the Netherlands than Babel and is a bigger star for them.
You can’t have it both ways. If Babel, Voronin, Torres, Hargreaves, Nani, Anderson, Tel Ben Haim, Sidwell, Malouda, Pizarro, Bent and the other Spurs unknowns are the star players signed by our rivals (as well as the other big transfers such as Barton, Parker, Bellamy etc.) then Arsenal have about 20 star players.
With the possible exception of Tevez (who has not signed for anyone yet) and to a lesser extent Torres who regulary scores the magnificent total of ten goals a season, nobody has signed star players.
Star players is a myth. Name one star player from the Nottingham Forest team that won two European Cups in a row. Name one star player that played for Arsenal under George Graham. You don’t necessarily need any star players to win. You need mostly good players, some great players (Gilberto, Toure, Fabregas, Van Persie) and a team that adds up to more than the some of its parts. None of them have to be David Beckham or either Ronaldo or Roberto Carlos or Rooney.
July 24th, 2007 at 6:50 am
Irish, the players you mentioned are not star players, and they were all signed this summer, but you forget that the teams already have star players. Chelsea have Cech, Terry, Cashley, Ballack, Lampard, Sheva, Drogba…, Man U have Ferdinand, Ronaldo and Rooney and Liverpool only have Gerrard. So you see, they have star players after all.
July 24th, 2007 at 6:50 am
Very well put, IrishG. There is a tendency to confuse star players with big money signings. And we didn’t spend big money for sure.
Sheed, I still hope for a left sided midfielder. I read Wenger’s comments, but I don’t think it stops him from signing a player he likes. It will most likely be someone we haven’t heard of. But I will be happy with that as long as we have four wide players (excluding Eboue).
July 24th, 2007 at 7:22 am
Star players by top teams:
Chelsea: Terry, Cashley, Lampard, Drogba. The following are NOT stars: Ballack, Shevchenko…they have achieved nothing at Chelsea so far. They are just “big” names.
Man U: Ronaldo, Scholes. The following are NOT stars: Rooney. He was not a decisive factor in them winning the leauge! He is a “big” name hyped by the English media.
Liverpool: Gerrard. The following are NOT stars: Carragher, Torres (he has no PL experience).
July 24th, 2007 at 7:32 am
Fred, you are not right man. If Ballack and Sheva are not stars I don’t know who is then. Rooney is a star in my opinion and that example with Torres(he has no PL experience) is rubbish, although I agree that he is not a star yet. Let’s say we sign Ronaldinho tomorrow, would you say that he is not a star coz he has no PL experience? That’s what I thought
)))
July 24th, 2007 at 7:35 am
Errr. 14 goals and 11 assists in 35 league games – I think that makes Rooney a star player. He is only 21. You think this is the end of Rooney?
Bergkamp’s best total for Arsenal was 16 – and that was in ALL competitions – was he not a star player? Rooney, like Bergkamp is not an out and out striker, he sits behind the front man – he is a scorer and creator, and pest.
Besides, I think Man Utd have more star names that you think – Giggs, Vidic, Ferdinand, Neville. Ok, a couple are getting on but still showing a lot of quality.
July 24th, 2007 at 7:40 am
Sorry Bergkamp’s best was 22 that season, but league goals 16 was his best.
July 24th, 2007 at 8:28 am
@ sheed: what i meant are star players who have “played” or made an impact as stars. Mourinho does NOT even rate Ballack or Sheva.
you might disagree with me as you are a Torres fan but there is nothing Torres has done that van Persie hasnt. And I dont consider Van Persie a star….yet!
@ dannyt: how many of those rooney goals where match deciding goals and not just “add-ons”. Ronaldo was scoring and creating all sorts of “deciding” goals. Ronaldo basically carried that team…with most support from Scholes and Giggs.
And no, Gary Neville is not a star.
July 24th, 2007 at 8:45 am
Ok, let me give my own definition of a “star”:
A player who when removed would cost his team about 15 points or more.
A player who fans “pray to” when the game is being lost, its raining heavily, and you are a man down.
In that regard, Lampard is a star even though he has little technique. Because when playing in the chelsea system, he can score at anytime. And he often scores DECISIVE goals. Goals that pretty much sink the opposition.
Drogba is a star, Terry is a star.
Henry was a star, Pires, Bergkamp, Vieira, Ljungberg in 2002. Fabregas is a star.
Liverpool is more of a work ethic kind of team…and only Gerrard is really indispensable. Carragher cant even get into the England squad. LOL.
Man U: Vidic and Ferdinand are probably stars. Ronaldo is the MAIN star. Without Rooney Man U would still have won the league.
As for Arsenal: Van Persie and Fabregas are pretty much the players fans would “pray” to for magic. Though in my opinion van persie is not yet a star. Next season is his time to step up to that role.
July 24th, 2007 at 9:25 am
What you’re saying is too simplistic. Football is a team game, the “stars” can’t weave their magic without the right blend of players around them – look at Henry for France or Lampard for England or Giggs for Wales – they’ve been average for their countries because the system, the management, the players around them aren’t right.
Goals don’t always win you games, that crucial tackle from a right back that cuts our a cross can win you a game. A right back that does that over and over and over again can win you loads of games. A player who can’t defend like Eboue can lose you loads and loads and loads of games. So, yes Neville is a star – a model of consistency who has won something like 8 or 9 championships and the champions league.
If you’re talking “superstars”, that’s different – Pele, Cruyff, Maradona, Henry, Ronaldinho, there are only a handful of these players in world football currently – or in any year.
The word “star” is very much a generalisation and down to opinion, but there’s more than one way to skin a cat – for me a player who excels in his position, whatever position, consistently for years is a star – more so if it’s a winning team.
July 24th, 2007 at 9:30 am
Fred: “Without Rooney Man U would still have won the league.”
Again, too simplistic 14 goals and 11 assists is crucial, but not only that what about his work ethic, his all round passing, his tackle that led to a pass that led to a goal? I would have him at Arsenal in an instant – definite star, probable superstar.
July 24th, 2007 at 9:40 am
“Without Rooney Man U would still have won the league.”
Have to disagree. The way ManU played the last season, if any of their key players – Ronaldo, Rooney, Scholes, Giggs, Ferdinand and Vidic – were missing, they would have been screwed. Just about everything clicked for them. If the same happens to us this season, there is no saying how high we can reach.
July 24th, 2007 at 9:58 am
I hope Wenger is not too serious about this Eboue right-wing option. He can be an extremely penetrative player in small doses but I wouldn’t bet on him replicating that bustling form on any sort of consistent basis. Just like he couldn’t continue playing with any sort of consistency at right back.
In terms of wingers, Hamour Bouazza is a player I mentioned not so long ago. He looks a very good talent and could do well at Arsenal. He’s worth a punt anyway. Wenger can’t seriously be thinking about going into the season with this squad and then complain about fixture congestion again in March. He has the memory of a fish if does so.
July 24th, 2007 at 10:27 am
For Stag #39,
“Henry was a star player in his prime.” I would have to disagree and say that “Henry is a star just past his prime.” I think deep down Wenger knows this and that’s (partly) why he let TH leave….of course other issues are at play as well.
TH will do very well in LaLiga where it isn’t as physical, but his effectiveness in the EPL was clearly waning….at least to me it was.
I still think we will be a better TEAM without TH; I know you disagree and that is perfectly OK…..I like reading all the opinions here.
July 24th, 2007 at 10:43 am
Mazza, I too am very uncomfortable going into the new season with Rosicky, Hleb and Walcott. Eboue can be used as a right winger in bursts, not regularly. I will keep hoping for a signing till the season starts.
July 24th, 2007 at 11:06 am
I’d have to agree that if we did bring in some name players, perhaps Freddie would have been gone a lot sooner.
That is very true.
Its obvious Wenger told him he might not be starting very often, because otherwise he wouldn’t have swapped Arsenal for West Ham.
But I hope he regains his health and form and does well.
I am sure he will get rapturous applause when he returns as a Hammer.
July 24th, 2007 at 11:31 am
I think TH14’s move to spain was the best thing he could have done. He has a much better chance of having 3-5 years more being effective in a better climate. The rain and cold in England is hard on muscles. They tighten up a lot quicker.
As for star players Cesc is the biggest we have at the moment. Although you can’t forget old Mad Jens. He may be past his best at this point but he has major name recognition and is still one of the best GK in the EPL.
This is a bit of a make or break season for AW’s rebuilding project. There are several players who are at the point that they will either take off and become stars or will plateau. Ade, Diaby, Eboue, Clichy, RVP and Hleb all come to mind. Eduardo and Sagna will both need to show thier worth by the end of the season as well. Both being 24.
If half of these players reach their full potential we will be in very good shape. I tend to think that Diaby, Clichy, and RVP will. One of the 2 new guys mentioned above probobly will also if AW’s record is anything to go by.
Then we have the real kids. Traore, Hoyte, Walcott, Denilson, Djorou, Bendtner and the like. How many other teams have such promising reserve players?
This team is being built for the long haul. Built to be competative for the next decade not just the next 3 years.
July 24th, 2007 at 11:53 am
What makes a star in the EPL? Well, if FC Barcelona, Real Madrid, or Inter Milan are CONSTANTLY trying to buy you – you just might be a star!
All joking aside, and since I have already talked about Freddy, here’s my opinion.
Cesc is without a doubt a star. Every match on TV, he spoke of as in the running as the best CM in the league, and top 5 in the world. I believe this.
It’s a rare thing to consider a DM a star, but I think Toure is there. He is arguably rated top 3 or 5 in the league and sets the tone for our squad. Being as young as he is, he could be as important to us as Terry is to his squad.
RvP is just not there yet, but this year could see him do very well. Walcott is like Rooney when he was coming up, entirely hyped by the English media, but will be solid by the time he is in his twenties. The rest of the squad? Solid players.
The point is this: have you ever watched an all-star game in any sport? So many big names, and not that good of play on the field or court.
Big names, whether legitimate stars or not, seem to not be able to gel as a unit. They get in each other’s way – they have a hard time adapting to the idea of being role players. You DO NOT need 11 stars on the field, as the pessimists among us seem to suggest. You need a team, and a few stars to rise above to give the team the belief necessary to overcome the toughest opposition (in environments like OT, SB, and Anfield) and to kill off the pesky defensive minded (seriously how can their fans be cool w/ 5-4-1 or even 6-3-1 configurations? I hate negative football) with a ruthless attitude.
Do I realistically think we can win the league with the players we have to date? Impossible? No. Improbable? Yes. Will we fall out of the top 4? Impossible? No. Improbable? Very. I think we finish 4th again. I think we win the Carling Cup, make a great run (winning it would be so wonderful) in the FA Cup, and I think we make the final 8 in the CL.
And above all, we show the world how beautiful this game can be. Americans don’t need Beckham, they should just watch teams like us if they want to fall in love with football. Arsenal football is why I became a fan, a Gunner for life.
July 24th, 2007 at 12:29 pm
“A player who when removed would cost his team about 15 points or more” – that’s a definition for star player in Fred’s view.
Well, Ballack is not a star for you, but look at Bayern and you will see how much they missed him the last season.
Oh, and who the f*ck is Mourinho to rate Ballack and Sheva, he doesn’t rate half of his squad, but they are still very good players. He doesn’t rate SWP and Wenger rates/rated him very highly, so does that mean that Wenger sucks and Mourinho is a God? C’mon man get real.
And if you are talking about world-class player that’s a different story, but there are a few in today’s world, Kaka, Ronaldinho, Henry, C. Ronaldo… I can’t think of more, maybe Gerrard and Eto’o and that’s it.
July 24th, 2007 at 12:34 pm
And Fred, read what I wrote. I didn’t say that Torres is a star, I said he is not a star yet. As for RvP, I said that he will be a star by the end of the season, so I really don’t know why are you comparing those two, I have pretty much similar opinion for both of them.
July 24th, 2007 at 12:59 pm
what about star versus superstar in definition? That’s a debate worth having.
July 24th, 2007 at 1:50 pm
I believe STAR is only a term created by the media. In short, STAR = QUALITY + ATTENTION.
Not every QAULITY player is a star, depends on where he plays his football.
For instance, Rio Ferdinand Vs Kolo Toure, who’s a BETTER defender? Even Kolo is not better, the two are very close in terms of QUALITY. But in England, Rio is twice a STAR than Kolo. Yet it doesn’t mean he’s twice better a PLAYER does he?
So i think when u buy a STAR, the fee you paid apart from the player’s QUALITY, you also paid for the HYPE.
For instance, Darren Bent, as a player, he probably worths around 1 mil GBP. Yet because of the massive media attention in England, when Spurs bought him for 16 mil, 15 mil they spent on HYPE.
Say, IF Darren Bent is not an English player, and he’s playing in a club from Croatia, Spurs probably would be able to get him for 1 mil.
Likewise, when we bought van Persie, he’s not playing in a league with a massive media spotlight. So we were lucky to get him for 2 mil.
On the other hand, imagine he was a young talent playing for Charlton the likes, guess how much it would cost for any club to buy him?
July 24th, 2007 at 1:59 pm
Yes Andez, I agree with you, but don’t forget that those star/hyped players sell more shirts than the quality players like Kolo. So that’s the reason why they pay for them so much, they will get their money back with that, at least 2/3.
July 24th, 2007 at 2:18 pm
sheed: why are u getting angry?
am just talking about my general definition of a star in the local context.
ballack and sheva are not stars in the english football local context. i rate sheva very much for his past….but i fail to see why ballack is so hyped up. the only thing the guy has ever won is german league and cup….and english league cup.
i`ve lived in germany the last year – and bayerns problems have absolutely nothing to do with ballack. i have no time to even start to explain their woes.
as you know, i`ve never rated torres. we will see what he does this season.
July 24th, 2007 at 2:26 pm
@danny, the question is how many of his goals are really decisive? very few.
i still maintain that without ronaldo, Man U wont have won the league last year.
put that same responsibility on rooney`s shoulders and he will act like a bull in a china shop and will inevitably be red-carded on several occasions.
and ofcourse, i will have rooney at arsenal! afterall he is just 21 and is much better than adebayor!
July 24th, 2007 at 2:27 pm
The difference between stars and superstars? When the majority of people think a player is a star, that player becomes a superstar. It’s all based on opinion, but opinion is an illusion generator and doesn’t count for much.
For example 90% of the planet believes in a God, but the opinion of the vast majority doesn’t mean this is necessarily the case – as there’s no proof. And if a God was to be proved, only a minority would be right, because all the other believers would be wrong.
So it doesn’t matter how many people think someone is a star or a superstar, as it’s entirely down to subjective opinion – and there can never be a right answer, you can only discuss, argue about it.
July 24th, 2007 at 2:29 pm
PS. Judging by his hairstyle we have a new Freddie Ljungberg:
http://www.arsenal.com/article.asp?thisNav=news&article=478439&cpid=703&title=Nordtveit+-+It%27s+up+to+me+to+be+a+success+here
July 24th, 2007 at 6:03 pm
This star thing has really started a debate. Very interesting points of view.
I like the way Andez puts it. Rio is a star, Kolo is not, but Kolo is arguably the better player. Another example is Scholes versus Beckham. Beckham was the star but Ferguson sold him and kept Scholes.
Ferguson has sold or retired a lot of stars in his time – Veron, the later Keane, Beckham, Sharpe (remember him, lots of press), Van Nistleroy, Stam (after his book) and arguably Cantona as well. As soon as Rooney, Rio or Ronaldo get too big in their boots for him, they will be sold as well. Those that tend to stay at Utd for long periods are not always the stars – Bruce, Pallister, Irwin, Scholes, the early Keane, Neville etc.
We don’t need stars, we need some great players and lots of good players. We need a team.
July 24th, 2007 at 8:22 pm
Simple as this…
Star equals brand recognition. Household name. Nothing else.
Talent is less important in star status than the status of the name and the face that goes with it…
Yes, Beckham is talented, but you think he gets the recognition he does if he looks like Martin Keown? Doubt it.
There are very few big name stars in the sporting world who are not handsome. Yes, there are exceptions, but the majority of the time looks and ego have as much to do with it as anything.
July 24th, 2007 at 10:42 pm
Rye, not so sure thats always true.
Larry Bird.(NBA), Peyton Manning.(NFL), Michael Johnson (Track & Field), Ronaldinho, Rooney, Tevez (Soccer)… to name a few off the top.
There are definitely exceptions.
But if you are the best (or among the best)… you can still acheive star status.
(celebrity if you will)
July 24th, 2007 at 11:17 pm
Right, it isn’t always the case… Mark Messier and Terry Bradshaw can be added to that list as well.
But, like I said, often times, stardom is accompanied by looks, and a really good shoe contract doesn’t hurt either (Manning, Ronaldinho and Johnson all fit into that category).
Incidentally, while Tevez is a big time player, and a star in South America, to your casual fan outside of that continent — and I mean casual in the literal sense of the word, not the terrace toughs in the designer clobber — wouldn’t likely know who he is, but at the same time probably knows who Wayne Rooney is.
The point I was making is that part of stardom, the part that separates the great players without widespread name recognition from those that do have it, owe a lot to publicity… and often times a pretty face to go with the fancy footwork is enough to push some over others of equal (or perhaps even greater) talent.
July 25th, 2007 at 1:27 am
Okay… this is what happens when you stay up way too late looking at crap.
Click on this for a laugh… from the Ligue 1 club St.Etienne
http://www.madeinsport.com/photos/photo%20toaster_PE4.jpg
This is what we need at the Arsenal Online shop — breakfast will never be the same again. B-)
July 25th, 2007 at 1:30 am
Come on, Andez. Bent is definitely worth more than one million pounds. I was talking him up big time last summer before he signed his new contract. With Curbishley leaving at the end of the 05/06 season and with only one year remaining on his contract, I was thinking we could get a “good English player” him for cheap (about one million pounds) but it would only happen under those circumstances.
July 25th, 2007 at 1:50 am
It goes to show how smart Steve McClaren is that he would call up Alan Smith ahead of Darren Bent in England’s last couple international matches. Why, because Alan Smith is a bigger “star” that plays with a bigger team? Who in their right mind would, at the end of last season, rate Smith higher than Bent?
Nuts!
I guess that goes to the previous thread where you guys were going on about David Dein. Dein was also the guy that gave the FA an unnecessary deadline to appoint a new England manager before the World Cup. Now England is stuck with Steve McClaren.
July 25th, 2007 at 3:22 am
Sheed, but the shirt selling can’t make as much a difference. Otherwise clubs would all spend 10+ mil on big name players if they can get the money back from shirt selling.
With probably the only exception of David Beckham.
Joshuad,
If Bent not worths 1 mil, maybe 2 mil…. anyway, that’s not the main point of what I tried to say.
besides, would u agree if he’s a foreign player playing in a smaller league, with quality like him, you could get him for 1 or 2 mil?
btw, the bargain player u r talking about, how about going back to Darren Bent’s old club and nick a guy who may turn out just be as good as him, perhaps even better, but definitely cheaper now – Danny Haynes?
July 25th, 2007 at 3:35 am
“Another example is Scholes versus Beckham. Beckham was the star but Ferguson sold him and kept Scholes. ”
Yup IrishG, Scholes is a great example. For the past a decade or so, United got load of stars. When mentioned abt the key players of United’s success, one can easily come out with the names of Keane, Cantona, Schmeichel, Rooney, Beckham, Ronaldo….
but if you ask Alex Ferguson who’s been his most important players, I bet Paul Scholes would be right up there on his list. Those managers know the stuffs.
In fact, i read Vieira and Pires’ book, they both singleout Paul Scholes as the best English players they played against. Henry said the same lately and voted him as the Player of the Year last season.
but because Scholes is well known for his shyness in front of the spotlight, the guy rarely even did interview, so he didn’t get as much as attention as his fellow star teammates.
At his prime, i’d really love to have Scholes on our side, he’s probably one of the most intelligent English players i ever seen. The way he made his run, and the timing of his pass. Though he never won any individual award, certainly never made it to World Player of the Year second place like Lampard did, i rate him twice a player than Lampard at his prime.
the best thing abt Scholes is – though he clearly got talent, he’s also a tough, aggressive player always give 100% for his team.
BTW, Joshuad,
It’s also David Dein who urged England to hire a foreign coach (Sven). England fans never took Sven to heart, but his record as England manager is second to none since….. don’t know who, perhaps Bobby Robson.
The decision to hire back an England manager i don’t think it’s from Dein right? The press urged it, said England needed a coach with more PASSION. The fans asked for it too.
Now they got their wish. Besides, if not McClaren, who else? Pearce? Big Sam?
I afraid the “manager” of England is not where England’s problem lies…
July 25th, 2007 at 4:42 am
Andez, the point about Bent was not an argument but just to say that the guy is worth more than one million pounds. To say that fifteen of the 16 million spent on Bent was on the hype is an exaggeration.
As for David Dein, I don’t think he ever insisted an Englishman be the England manager. My point was he did insist that Sven’s replacement be identified before the World Cup began. There was absolutely no reason for that time constraint to be imposed. While I agree England’s main problems are not with the manager, the foolish timeline to name a successor didn’t help make things better for English football either.
For the record, I have nothing against David Dein, but it goes to show that he’s not infallible.
July 25th, 2007 at 6:30 am
Glad to see the back of him, has not done anything since the tail end of 2002.
July 25th, 2007 at 7:12 am
kinda glad we not involved in that ridiculous tevez saga. imagine wenger arguing it out with that kia character and west ham…lol.
July 25th, 2007 at 8:14 am
ANR says Kia offered Tevez to Arsenal but Wenger didn’t want to deal with privately owned players. I had mentioned the latter part long time back, saying that Wenger had publicly expressed his opposition to such deals. But when the Premier League ruled in West Ham’s favour, my hopes were raised, simply because Tevez is such a nice player to have. Now the whole thing is such a mess.
July 25th, 2007 at 9:04 am
I was sorry to see Freddie go, but it made sense. He was my favorite player since his punk days, but he’d lost his pace, Dennis, gotten mouthy lately and seemed to lose his focus on the team. When he went down with injury, other players stepped in. When he was healthy again, Wenger held on to his replacements so they could get a decent run. Freddie was hurt, and complained. Publicly.
Now that he’s shuffled off to West Ham, he’s hurt again and is still complaining, throwing the team under the bus at his first opportunity. True colors and just another example of our vets who didn’t really step up when Wenger was counting on them, and yet acted like spoiled children when they got replaced. Wenger’s been let down, so I don’t blame him for sticking to players who put the team before themselves while the club is paying their wages. Finally, the egos have left the building. Experience can be good, and we’re finding, detreimental as well. And we’ve got quite a few youngsters with more big game experience than most of the vets in the league.
And I don’t see Walcott taking Freddie’s place as much as Eboue. Walcott needs to be allowed to be a striker, and Eboue, without the burden of defending, should make great use of those extra few yards forward as he was already playing like a right-sided midfielder last season at right back. He also isn’t afraid of giving us width, and he’s finding his crossing feet as well.
Freddie was only going to make things worse the longer he stayed. I’ve great respect for the man, but like I said, we’ve finally moved on all the buzzkillers in the dressing room.
July 25th, 2007 at 9:20 am
Scotty, Gallas is still around.
July 25th, 2007 at 9:58 am
Heh, true. I wonder for how much longer, though.
July 25th, 2007 at 10:02 am
I am hopeful we will sign a winger before the close of the transfer deadline; with Freddie gone and Reyes going, we will be light in depth; we will need someone to come in………Oh who can it be? It is fun to speculate….
3 weeks is a long time in football…..
July 25th, 2007 at 10:17 am
i know there are still doubters about eboue, but Scotty I m with u, I think Eboue will make a great winger now with less burden to defend, that’s IF, he’s really going to play as a wide player by AW.
Rosicky, Walcott and Hleb all got skills. But if you want a player to take on the opposing defender one-on-one, I would want Eboue to do it. Not that Rosicky, Walcott, Hleb can’t. But because of their size, they have their limit.
Eboue, on the other hand, is powerfully built, and in basketball-term, got a great FIRST STEP. In other words – great acceleration when dribbling the ball past a defender.
last season, from time to time, when we were trailing late in a game, it’s Eboue who looked the most dangerous threat, in terms of creating chances by driving down the right flank.
And he has another big + : his game is more DIRECT than Hleb, Rosicky, Walcott. When he drives down the right flank, he either cross the ball or shoot on sight.
July 25th, 2007 at 10:51 am
Yep, Eboue can look great but as Joshaud said, he has one trick where he leans left and pushes the ball out to the right and wrong foots the defender. It won’t take long for players to wise up to that. Another problem is that he has two gears; forward and reverse. To play on the right side for any length of time you need to be able to tread water alot of the time, especially with our style. He’s great last 25 minute option though.
As for Ljungberg, he looked out of place in this Arsenal team. Like a player from another era, who sadly became an awkward spoke near the end.
July 25th, 2007 at 11:12 am
Don’t forget, the transfer window hasn’t closed yet… and Mark Randall is still a possibility. I expect to see more of him in today’s friendly against Salzburg.
Speaking of which, this match ought to give us a better idea of what Arsenal has than the contest with Genclerbirligi did. Salzburg is a much better squad.
July 25th, 2007 at 11:58 am
The games so far have been a nice warm up for the squad.I’m looking to see how they play this weekend. Pretty good competition coming to the Emirates. How the lads play in this tournament should give us an idea as how they play against some quality. only a handful of weeks until the season opens.
July 25th, 2007 at 12:05 pm
Very strong squad, Gallas, Lehmann, Traore, Rosicky, Denilson, Hleb, Diaby, Van Persie, Toure, Eboue, Da Silva. Stadium is full. Look forward to watching this.
July 25th, 2007 at 12:08 pm
Mazza, one trick or not, last season was not Eboue’s FIRST season, if the defenders had found a way to stop that trick, they would have be able to stop it last season wouldn’t they?
Come to think of it, Thierry Henry had plenty of tricks, but he also like to use ONE particular trick when comes to scoring – cutting from the left, before side-footed the ball into the far top corner. Those defenders had played against him for years, they KNEW he’s gonna do that everytime when he cut inside, yet somehow they still couldn’t stop him.
Like I say, Eboue not just got trick, he got the POWER and great acceleration. U can try to stop the trick, but it’d be very difficult for a defender to stop a quick and powerful player coming at u.
Reyes probably got more tricks than Eboue when comes to dribbling, but because of his size it didn’t really get him anywhere.
July 25th, 2007 at 12:13 pm
Thoughts so far v. Red Bull
Eduardo has a quick trigger… man, if he is on target, look out.
Rosicky is looking good so far today…
Hleb needs to be more consistently aggressive….
July 25th, 2007 at 12:31 pm
Rosiscky and Diaby are both having strong performances today… the goals will come if this keeps up.
July 25th, 2007 at 12:34 pm
Eboue just pulled something… groin, hip flexor… dunno. Here comes Sagna as a sub…
July 25th, 2007 at 12:34 pm
Yeah, Eduardo looks like a razor sharp goal poacher. Good to see players willing to shoot from distance, otherwise still no width, everything going through the middle. Diaby looks excellent, like Vieira with skill but without the physical presence yet. He just dribbled past 4 players like they weren’t there.
July 25th, 2007 at 12:36 pm
my mistake… Sagna is coming on for Rosicky… which seems to have the commentators baffled as well.
July 25th, 2007 at 12:56 pm
eboue moved to RM and Hleb switched to LM/LW. Diaby is quick. Hleb needs to buckle up. Drible…and loose it.
July 25th, 2007 at 12:57 pm
Early days of course, but after Rosicky went off there was no creativity – there is no link between midfield and attack without Fabregas. The full backs are not overlapping and putting crosses in so Eduardo and Van Persie are standing around waiting for something to happen. Denilson and Diaby are both playing deep protecting the back four, the whole team needs to push up. Henry could pick up the ball and score a stupid goal or dribble past 3 players, but that’s not Eduardo’s game. He’s faded out completely and Van Persie is getting frustrated.
July 25th, 2007 at 12:58 pm
Hleb did well in the first 5 minutes, otherwise you wouldn’t know he was on the pitch.
July 25th, 2007 at 12:59 pm
I don’t think Reyes even had one trick. He try to nutmeg and then fall to the ground. Plus, it’s one thing being a full back or occasionally attacks but another entirely being a winger who consistently attacks and who has to receive the ball with his back to oncoming opponent. Big difference Andez.
Arsenal great to watch so far but still have a phobia of the goal, running to the corner flag all the time.
Very impressed with Eduardo. You can tell he has no time for fools and he has great movement.
If Rosicky is injured again it will take the piss. He brilliant player who doesn’t deserve such horrendous luck. He and Hleb looked good together.
July 25th, 2007 at 1:24 pm
I’m seeing what I wanted to see of Eduardo. He’s consistently there when the ball comes… last week v. Genclerbirligi he played more as a winger. Today he’s in front of the goal.
Diaby continues to look sharp as razors.
Overall, the team looks fluid until they get within the penalty area…then they look a little hesitant. Need to convert it quicker.
July 25th, 2007 at 1:25 pm
And we’re starting to see Eboue’s limitations as a primarily offensive player in this very game….
July 25th, 2007 at 1:29 pm
Yep. But that’s why AW is playing him there.
Fabianski is looking solid.
July 25th, 2007 at 1:30 pm
Diaby’s day is done. Good job.
Here comes our first look at Mark Randall today.
July 25th, 2007 at 1:34 pm
Bendtner looks good.
July 25th, 2007 at 1:39 pm
goal Red Bull. The center (didn’t catch the number) should have picked up the man.
July 25th, 2007 at 1:48 pm
All those people who want Hleb out of the side need examining. The only player with an ounce of creativity.
July 25th, 2007 at 1:48 pm
Thoughts…
Bendtner may not have a lot of speed, but he makes up for that physically. Not a lone striker, but as part of a duo he can play a role.
Would like to see Sagna move up and play MF to see what he can do there. Eboue is definitely meant for DF.
Eduardo should pull the trigger sooner… he has really good feet, but the bigger defenders are giving him troubles in one on one situations in front of the keeper.
July 25th, 2007 at 1:59 pm
Mazza, I agree about Hleb — but what I want to see from him is consistency.
Mark Randall is looking at being loaned out I think. He’s got a bit of physical development to do.
I reckon Walcott has proven himself as we didn’t see him today.
Bendtner is brings a skill set that was lacking a bit from last season — physical presence.
Traore looked decent.
The center MF needs to gel.
This was the first decent test for Arsenal, and although the score doesn’t reflect it, the Gunners were the dominant side. Unfortunately, we see the same thing that we saw all too often last season… they need to stay focused the full 90 minutes. The late goal is what killed them last year.
July 25th, 2007 at 2:01 pm
I’ve personally seen enough of Sagna to scrap any idea of him playing higher up the pitch. He was more Hoyte than Carlos Alberto today. Eboue extremely limited as a right-winger, but yet some people go hysterical after after he runs past a few players in the last ten minutes against Spurs in the Carling Cup.
Hleb looks better on the left. Gets more involved.
Gallas and Toure like two clowns again today. In the air anyway.
Eduardo looks sharp but seems to have forgotten you have to shoot to score. He already seems to have contracted the Arsenal disease.
July 25th, 2007 at 2:03 pm
Overall I thought we looked good.
July 25th, 2007 at 2:03 pm
Deserved to lose really. Sort of game we saw too often last season, dominate possession can’t score, other team nicks one because the defence committed suicide. Still, the goal came when Randall, Flamini, Hoyte came on, all of which had about 8 touches between them.
Still, the players are not match fit yet. Main positives, a real sense of hunger, negatives, no penetration and lack of fluidity, which is to be expected with so many substitutes, new players and young players. No Walcott, Gilberto, Adebayor, Fabregas out there and shame Rosicky had to come off early.
I think Arsenal will delight a lot of people at the Emirates, but away from home there will be tough times next season, which is why Arsenal won’t win anything.
July 25th, 2007 at 2:43 pm
Whether Eboue can play the RM role, as Joshuad like to say, TIME will tell. Personally, I hope he can, and I believe he can. And bottom line is – I will not be someone who write off one of our own players that he can’t play where and where before even watching him playing on that position (apart from a preseason friendly).
btw, Mazza, I NEVER judge a player base on one single performance. Did he dribble past a few players against Spurs? Hell, I don’t even remember that one.
July 25th, 2007 at 2:56 pm
Boys, I missed the game as I had soccer practice tonight. Did we win or lose? Did Djourou play? I know I said before that there’s no way we’d loan him this season but I also thought there’s no way we’d sell Vieira when we did.
So, really, did Eboue look good in midfield or was I right about him playing there? Did Hleb look bad or was I right about him too? I’ve got to shower.
July 25th, 2007 at 3:23 pm
Josh… just cue up the matches from last season, in which we dominate and lose. All possession… all flair… attractive football… can’t score to save our lives… let up a bad goal late.
Thats what happens with a team full of kids!
Good thing its pre-season and means NOTHING.
We can’t afford to lose these type of matches in the league if we are going to compete for anything.
Time will tell.
July 25th, 2007 at 3:33 pm
You better f*ck off then because that’s exactly what will happen throughout the season – Arsenal will not win the league or anything else probably, and I don’t think there’s a single person who wants to listen to your negative, disloyal sh*t for the next 10 months.
July 25th, 2007 at 3:59 pm
as was said already a bit like last season….but then again we are not fully fit.
we still showed we havent solved some things:
- sharpness in front of goal.
- without Fabregas or Rosicky that final killer pass is missing.
- Toure and Gallas are a problem.
If only we could seal the defense a bit then I wont be worried at all about our constant fannying about in front of goal.
anyway, i really, really think we need one more CREATIVE option in midfield – someone to come on for Rosicky or Fabregas. Rosicky cant be trusted to stay fit all season. He has tooooo many niggly injuries. Hleb is ***********.
i was hoping for a van der vaart….but any unknown but creative guy we can stick in as a sub for the LM position would do nicely.
July 25th, 2007 at 4:00 pm
I’m not worried. This is why they play pre-season friendlies. See who can do what, and where the squad needs work.
As Danny pointed out, Walcott sisn’t feature, and Rosicky came out early. And Gilberto, Senderos, Adebayor and Fabregas didn’t play either.
This squad will be fine. What happens in the future is unknown, so predicting that Arsenal won’t win anything is a pointless endeavor. SAve those sort of predictions for January.
Whatever unfolds, I’m predicting it’ll be a tighter table this season, and there is no doubt in my mind that the Gunners will make another top four finish.
July 25th, 2007 at 4:04 pm
Mazza #117
Ddn’t see the game, but if Hle b did well good on him….but what we need from him is to be great, be incisive, and be decisive, and be an accurate shooter all season, not just one game out of five…..until then I say he is not good enough for us to be a starter.
Oh boys, if this (dominating and losing) is any indication of what’s to come in the coming months, I am not sure if I can take it…..
July 25th, 2007 at 4:07 pm
I would like to see a commanding centre-back brought in too, it will be tricky to find someone willing to rotate but I think it’s necessary. Maybe a highly creative midfielder is also required, it’s hard to say.
I think Walcott will give Arsenal the width and penetration it needs, not consistently but this kid is quality and is capable of flying past players and doing damage – he’s already proved that despite being injured most of last season. This is a great player to bring on for the last half hour, where Arsenal often make the difference.
Tonight’s game showed a lot of immaturity. Eboue being an ass again, Diaby mistiming his tackles, Van Persie’s frustration etc., this season is needed to iron all that out and so many other things, and next season I want to see this team really blossom.
July 25th, 2007 at 4:14 pm
Getting close gents… there are now 28 teams on the table for the fantasy league.
Anyone else from here going to join? You all like to play manager… show us what you can really do.
Here’s the link to the site:
http://www.premierleague.com/fapl.rac?command=forwardOnly&nextPage=homepage&tab=fixtures
Sign up, make your team and then select join a private league.
Here are the league name and the code you need:
League Name: Arsenal America
Access Code (to join the private league): 15843-5346
July 25th, 2007 at 4:24 pm
I’m sorry boys but losing to Salzburg is the wrong answer, even in pre-season. Every now and then I’ll watch a bit of the Austrian league because the german cable company shows it in high definition and it’s cool to watch a game with that dynamite picture quality. But the soccer is so bad that I can only watch it in small doses. That league is probably worse than the MLS. For Arsenal to lose to those clowns is very un-good.
July 25th, 2007 at 4:59 pm
I think the current team will do well if they qualify for CL next season. If the team stay together and away from serious injuries, then I think they will contend for some trophies in the next 2 to 3 years.
July 25th, 2007 at 5:09 pm
josh, didn’t you say that you missed the game? Arsenal dominated. It wasn’t the regular XI who allowed the late goal. And anyways, who cares? It was a meaningless match as far as points go. This was a warm up for Arsenal.
At any rate, I highly doubt the Austrian BundesligaI is a worse league than MLS.
No it isn’t the Deutschland Bundesliga, but it isn’t the MLS either.
And even if they aren’t in a great league, Red Bull are still the champions of it…
Chelsea lost to the MLS All Stars last year, and Celtic lost to them this year…
What’s that mean then? Chelsea and Celtic aren’t quality clubs? Chelsea finished last season with the FA Cup and the Carling Cup in hand, and second in the standings.
Hoops did the double last season in the SPL, and are also in the Champions League… you think they care about a friendly v. the MLS squad?
It’s an exhibition. Nothing else.
July 25th, 2007 at 5:24 pm
I joined the league by the way – not sure how long I will keep it up for though, I usually lose interest after a month.
July 25th, 2007 at 5:25 pm
Arsenal beat Man Utd home and away last season, but lost a friendly with a better team…. we’re doomed !!!!!!!!!
July 25th, 2007 at 6:16 pm
Bully Boy… I’ll be here all 10 months. Win lose or draw.
So get used to it.
The MLS is better than the Austrian League… there is no question about that.
It was a pre-season friendly. It is not necessarily a barometer of what is to come, but I would expect the team to be much like last years. Losing or drawing games we shouldn’t, and beating the Top 3 teams a few times too.
Its called a lack of experience. We’ve got talent… just not there yet in the mental toughness area.
We did play many of our best players… but its very early.
The two pre-season tournaments should give a glimpse of what we have to offer this year… but we lack in some key areas.
It is Wenger’s team. Its just about the way he wanted it.
July 25th, 2007 at 6:21 pm
Did you notice that Gallas was captain, not Kolo, which surprised me, coz I thought after Gilberto it was Toure. Does that mean that he is on the way out, like the two previous captains
)))))))))))))))
July 25th, 2007 at 6:26 pm
Danny, I can’t understand you man. You attack Stag for being negative, but look at your comment first. You are saying:
“I think Arsenal will delight a lot of people at the Emirates, but away from home there will be tough times next season, which is why Arsenal won’t win anything.”
And how is that different to “We can’t afford to lose these type of matches in the league if we are going to compete for anything”
I really don’t understand. If he is negative, you’re negative too.
July 25th, 2007 at 6:29 pm
BTW Stag, are you joining in the Fantasy Premierleague Manager? I know you play them, although this is free and is for fun.
July 25th, 2007 at 6:33 pm
It’s pretty easy to understand. There’s a difference between making a negative statement and being negative about everything. When Arsenal struggle away from home I will expect it and accept it, whereas dick head will rip into the team, slag of all the players, moan about who’s left and probably tell Wenger to f*ck off again.
July 25th, 2007 at 6:39 pm
First of all Bully Boy, I rarely “slag off” the players, its Wenger’s team, he chooses who plays here, and who gets sold for the most part…
So if we fail to get into the top 4, then I’ll likely rip the person(s) responsible.
It is what it is.
I don’t think they’ll be a lack of effort from the kids, they just might not be good enough.
And Sheed… I’m always in the Fantasy League… it is enjoyable, except when you forget to update, or don’t have the time!
July 25th, 2007 at 6:43 pm
Well, I can’t see you in the Arsenal America league. If you have a team, join in our private league. The code you can see above in some comment from ryecatcher.
July 25th, 2007 at 7:31 pm
To Joshuad:
Arsenal’s pre season friendly
JULY 11 2003 – Peterborough 1 Arsenal 0
JULY 19 2003 – Barnet 0 Arsenal 0
Arsenal’s final position end of season
MAY 2004
P W D L F A Pts
38 26 12 0 73 26 90
July 25th, 2007 at 8:38 pm
I think, even though the friendly meant little (a little more to Salzburg, however, since it was the grand reopening to their ground and they are already 3 games into their season and well ahead of us fitness-wise) most people are worried that we’re seeing the same thing as last season. I share those concerns a bit, but I also see some small improvements.
For one, I did see more penetration. Not a lot, but instead of faffing around at the top of the box, we were in the box. So many players were mistiming runs it was silly, but the passing accuracy was pretty much there. A few more games and I think we’ll see that there’s more creativity out there than at first glance once they get on the same page.
Secondly, we were very composed in the back for about an hour. But fitness really caught up with us once we tried to push forward for a goal. The goal we conceded was from a couple of deflections that started from our most senior defender with the most horrible, self-congratulatory website ever committed to the interwebatron. NO idea why he was captain, but that’s neither here nor there. Small observation that our 2nd keeper was in goal for it too, but slightly larger observation that he appears to be just as nuts as Jens. Let’s hope he’s not picking up too many bad habits.
Thirdly (?), our passing and movement as a whole was far superior to anything I’ve seen in anyone’s preseason games. We’re more relaxed, accurate, and composed, and some of the stuff we do looks so effortless as to be overlooked. Mostly for good reason, as today it didn’t win for us any soccer scores. ;^)
As for individual players, Diaby is looking awesome. When he came off we lost a lot of presence in midfield, and he was key in several good attacks. And you can’t say we didn’t shoot a few times from the outside. Robin was starved of service and his shooting boots are still on the wrong feet, but it was nice to see Denilson taking a few cracks even if they were clubfooted.
Hleb had an awesome game after some early old-skool Belarussian giveaways. At one point he completely bamboozled two Salzburg defenders at once, and looked a much improved player. I don’t think there was much to do once he got in the box though, even though Eduardo got into some good spaces and Bendtner…what did he do, again? Not convinced by him, really, although he seems to do better in the hole a bit.
Its might also be interesting to note that Chelsea squeaked a very lucky draw vs. Feyenoord, who bottled a penalty horribly. I say this because many are comparing our preseason to other clubs, and if you saw either United (who drew 2-2 against a pony club, were apparently unconvincing in another, and beat the hell out of a very shit Chinese side) or Cuntski (who made the Galaxy look a bit like Galacticos and were only saved blushes by the fraud that is Landon Donovan) you might add their performances to the Danny’s stats above to put today’s result in perspective. Its hardly indicative of what’s to come if you don’t put too much weight on the past, and the names on the backs of the jerseys. Five goals in three games, and not all from one player, is a bit positive as well.
Can one more player, preferably a winger or another striker or both be the whole difference in what’s to come this season? Some seem to think so. I prefer to lay our hopes on belief. In the end, I’m disappointed we again didn’t turn our early dominance into clear chances against a side we clearly outclassed, and it will be interesting to see how the lads, our very young lads, bounce back at the weekend.
Oh, and tough loss to MK Dons, Freddie.
Up the Arse, Kiss the Crest, Keep the Faith.
July 25th, 2007 at 9:28 pm
Stags, so you don’t have to scroll up… I’ll re-paste it here (and for anyone else that has missed it…)
Here’s the link to the site:
http://www.premierleague.com/fapl.rac?command=forwardOnly&nextPage=homepage&tab=fixtures
Sign up, make your team and then select join a private league.
Here are the league name and the code you need:
League Name: Arsenal America
Access Code (to join the private league): 15843-5346
July 25th, 2007 at 9:29 pm
Scotty, I believe you were secretly for the Red Bulls, aren’t they related to your favorite soccer team, the NY-NJ MetroStar RedBulls in NY State?
!!!!!!!!!!!
Your glass is overflowingly full of red-kool aid.
Wouldn’t have it any other way!!!
We were much the same today as last year, but I agree it doesn’t mean alot right now. When it becomes a trend, its time to worry.
July 25th, 2007 at 9:55 pm
Sheed, Game On!
I’m in
July 25th, 2007 at 9:59 pm
Would have liked to see the game but didn’t….
We have got to get in the habit of scoring first and scoring early….That will be invaluable to us this year.
Reading all of your comments and evaluation of the game, I can’t help but help think that we’re still missing something……..something intangible that if and when we get it, the rest of Europe better watch out.
Is it a winger???? A Pires-type player??? Looking at sheer numbers we will have lost 2 attacking MFs this year (Freddie, and Reyes/Baptista). So we are a bit thin in that department. Add an injury or two and a friggin’ FA cup replay and we are out of fit players. I would not be surprised whatsoever if Wenger bought a winger in the next 3 weeks…..I bet he has something up his sleeve.
Is it a defender????? Don’t know but I would love a mean CB….not likely to get it though.
Is it mental toughness? A winning mentality and the attitude to just friggin’ put the ball in the net????………Probably. This needs time to be fostered and developed. I hope it happens inthe next 3 weeks…..I remember the days when after a tackle on an Arsenal player, Vieira would pick out the tackler and shout “Hey, Heeey, Heeeyyyyyy.” As if to say, if you do that again I’ll rip you to pieces…..we need that again.
And why is it that none of the active senior players have chastized Freddie for the absurd comments that “Hammers are/will be better than the Arsenal?”
Would like to see the highlights of today’s game? Is it on you tube yet?
July 26th, 2007 at 12:25 am
The post match interview with Wenger was interesting. He seemed very coy when asked about whether or not he would be making another purchase before the season started. It is true that he is usually coy about these sort of things. But I agree with Biggun that he probably has something up his sleeve. The sheer numbers of players leaving vs joining this summer necessitate another purchase. Also, the ACN still has to be factored in as well. He also said that Gilberto will miss the start of the season due to being rested from the Copa America. That means we will probably see a Diaby/Fabregas center of the park to open the season. I am not 100% sure if they can play together yet. But I am looking forward to finding out.
July 26th, 2007 at 12:47 am
I did say that without Fabregas, we seem to have very little creativity (I wrote an article on that). With Rosicky and Hleb playing together, it could make up, but if only one of those two is on the pitch, we are not in a good shape. I do ask – what does Denilson do in terms of creativity? Isn’t he like the Cesc backup. I am worried about this, but I don’t think we will be signing another CM, not with having 6 already.
July 26th, 2007 at 1:05 am
I like that fact that our strikeforce now is quite direct and not afraid to shoot. If we continue to create chances like we did last season, we should do well. No reason why we won’t do that because our midfield is pretty much the same and Diaby is also there now. The key is to keep Fabregas fit all season.
July 26th, 2007 at 3:39 am
i like the way wenger does NOT name song as one of ours CMs
what do u guys think about nakamura: he`s leftfooted and used to british football and he scores quite a few too.
i think he would make a good backup for the wings.
July 26th, 2007 at 4:30 am
That’s why I have doubts about Denilson. Tidy little player but what does he actually bring to the Arsenal team? What definable ingredient? His shooting was encouraging but those clubfoot shots are already becoming a trademark of his.
We could be seriously good if we added another option into central midfield. A penetrative guy with composure. Something Diaby lacks.
July 26th, 2007 at 4:40 am
There’s no use in thinking of more players to buy. I mean its silly season and its all fun but there almost a 100% guarantee that if we’ve heard of a playerAW isn’t going to buy him. This may not count for much but Eduardo got number 9..Jeffers,Reyes,Baptista…same number so I’m guessing he’s a Reyes replacement rather than an Henry replacement. If you try and replace Henry you will only fall flat on your face because Titi at his peak was irreplaceable and probably is even now.
Nakamura,Pedersen,even Stuart Downing or any left winger would be great as a backup but if he just gets cameos of a substitute bench he’s not going to be happy. Only kids will be willing to sit on the bench and learn. Walcott’s already talking 10 goals thi sseason…and he’s 18. You think Nakamura would come in and sit here and be content with FA CUP and carling cup..nope. Its a catch22 situation really..u need depth obviously but not with players who’ll sit and make a noise if they arent picked for 1 game. So no while a LW would be great…I wouldn’t be unhappy if it doesn’t happen if Mozart manages to stay injury free…how the hell does he keep getting injured so much!!
Lastly ManU apparently lost 3-2 to Port Vale yesterday …so preseason frendlies mean nothing..except a chance to experiment……
July 26th, 2007 at 4:45 am
Diaby and Denilson are 20…and one had his ankle cracked for 9 months by a nut from Sunderland. Give the guys a chance okay…before u slate them…atleast a season?? A complete season…and b4 u talk about Diaby being a 30 minute player..u’d do well to remember that most people find it hard here to keep up a high level of footballl 90 minutes..Diaby was in the reserves at Auxerre…came here was playing great when he got his ankle cracked…and hasn’t played regularly since and has been played in weird positions like the LW coz of injuries to personnel or even as a second striker at time. How do you expect sum1 who gets 1 game in 3 to adjust to 3 different positions and replicate Patrick Viera at 27 at his peak straightaway? It makes no sense IMO. Time wil tell I guess…
July 26th, 2007 at 5:27 am
Ryecatcher, I understand that you “think” the Austrian league is better than the MLS and are entitled to do so. We’re all a bunch of Type-A’s that think we’re always right and know everything about this game, myself included.
But I don’t have to “think” about which league is better. I don’t like to be wrong so I don’t argue points that I have no clue what I’m talking about without saying so. I don’t know when was the last time you’ve watched the Austrian league but that league is absolute garbage. This is not what I “think” but what I’ve seen with my own eyes very regularly.
DannyT, what’s the point in talking about us beating Man Untied last year? Is it really that big of a deal? West Ham beat Man Untied home and away too and if memory serves me correctly West Ham, who only avoided relegation by the skin of their balls, beat Arsenal home and away last season as well.
My point is that we lost to a team that’s not even close to being good enough to be in the EPL. Our inability to be ruthless and crush inferior teams was our main problem last year and while I’ve admitted to not watching the game last night, the story line sounds very familiar. And for me, like I said, that’s the wrong answer.
July 26th, 2007 at 6:52 am
@ joshuad: and Man U lost to PortVale yesterday as well. Preseason friendlies (and all friendlies in general) are meaningless!
@ mazza: u are incredible man. u refuse to slate hleb but u expect a 21 year old diaby to be a “penetrative guy with compure” who dominates for 90 minutes. he is 21 and playing basically his 2nd season.
those qualities u are looking for are only possessed by the TOP class midfielders….so i dont understand why u expect diaby to possess all of them right NOW.
July 26th, 2007 at 7:31 am
@joshuad, u say what is the point in talking about us beating Man Utd last year as if it means nothing, so equally what’s the point of talking about us losing to Salzburg in a friendly?
I re-iterate:
JULY 11 2003 – Peterborough 1 Arsenal 0
JULY 19 2003 – Barnet 0 Arsenal 0
Arsenal’s final position end of season
P W D L F A Pts
38 26 12 0 73 26 90
Of course, I’m not saying Arsenal will go the season unbeaten – but those friendly defeats were a lot, lot worse than Salzburg, who were playing in front of 30,000 fans, highly motivated because it was their first game in a refurbished ground with Giovanni Trapattoni as manager.
Arsenal on the other hand had 6 reserves on the pitch when they scored.
Put things in perspective.
July 26th, 2007 at 8:22 am
Diaby – watch a video of the Carling Cup final to get an idea of just how good he is.
July 26th, 2007 at 8:33 am
Hey, Johnny Depp is back
))))))
It’s been a while pirate, where have you been?
July 26th, 2007 at 8:35 am
Don’t you just love/hate it when Wenger says stuff like “I will bide my time over naming a new captain” or “I might not replace Ljunberg”. First you go – What the … Then it’s – In Wenger we trust. One keeps hoping.
July 26th, 2007 at 8:56 am
Offtopic: @Nipuna: Where in India??? ..if you dont mind?
July 26th, 2007 at 9:21 am
Gentlemen, I’ll say it again; my point is that we still find a way to lose games that we should win. It’s bad enough to dominate a game and draw but to dominate and lose is too hard to take. We still seem to have not found a way to put inferior teams to the sword. We still seem to lack that killer instinct.
While I agree that pre-season results don’t mean anything, the fact that it’s a recurring theme that we dominate games and still somehow fail to score goals is the worry. It was our main problem last year, not the defense and if we don’t get it right then we won’t challenge for any trophies. The fact that we lost to Blackburn, Man City, Sheffield, PSV, West Ham twice, CSKA, etc. despite dominating is something that will continue to haunt us if we don’t get it right.
That, gentlemen, is my perspective. That is my point.
July 26th, 2007 at 9:34 am
What you say is true JoshuaD…but the killer instinct which you talk about can hardly be measured by a single game and that too a pre-season game. If it continues to happen in the league then I’m with you that its a problem but until then its really nothing…if indeed AW saw something which really worried him I’m sure he’d be looking into it very carefully and finding a solution to it. Hell isn’t that why Eduardo has been brought in? to address that very concern. An unfit team with multiple substitutions isn’t really a good barometer specially when you play against a side who is already fully tuned (okay not a great side) but still fitter than us. How many times have we destroyed teams in the last 15 coz of better fitness? we’ll be okay man ..chill
July 26th, 2007 at 9:49 am
Lack of Killer Instinct I believe it’s our main weakness as well.
But WHAT it takes to fix a problem? Remember the boys did not kick a ball for a few weeks, just came back for the training camp, so HOW we expect all a sudden the problem is solved?
Anyone really believes AW does not aware of this problem himself? Did he just buy a striker whose strength is to score goals?
Give them TIME shall we? A few more preseason games the lads will work better in their communication and understanding, particular with the new signings. Not to mention their fitness level will be up and shake off the rustiness.
Like LDE mentioned, the whole idea of preseason games is for the team to figure out the problems and work on it, otherwise why waste time? Might as well go straight to the real things right away.
July 26th, 2007 at 9:49 am
To be fair Arsenal didn’t really dominate last night. It was quite an even game. We just wasted chances again.
If we could somehow keep Rosicky fit and get Hleb playing consistently aggressive, aided by Fabregas’ genius, Arsenal could get very close to the title shake-up.
The problem is when Rosicky and Hleb are not playing the level of our team drops alarmingly. Rosicky especially is massive for us however, like Ljungberg, he cannot stay fit.
Our success this season really could come down to Rosicky’s fitness.
July 26th, 2007 at 9:57 am
LDE, Bangalore.
July 26th, 2007 at 10:15 am
Joshaud, Arsenal have an almost completely different forward line to last season, Van Persie hardly played, Eduardo and Bendtner are new. A fit Walcott is like having a new striker too. So it’s too early to get worried about this apparent ‘problem’.
Stop being so impatient – maybe Arsenal will have the same problems as last year, who knows? But you can’t make any sort of judgement based on one pre-season friendly. And if you want to do that then how come you have conveniently forgotten Arsenal scored 5 in the two friendlies before that?
July 26th, 2007 at 10:20 am
Hmmm…is there a reason we have a reputation as a team with fans who moan a lot? Jeeeeez, it’s a preseason match. Take the NFL here in the states: back in the early 90’s, Dallas would lose like 60% of their preseason games…and go on to win the Super-Bowl. And during the preseason, everyone here in Dallas would be totally bitching and moaning and freaking out. And those fans pissed me off. Seriously, guys. Do you know how much players hate preseason matches? They hate them…there is excessive substitutions, and the players hardly get into a rhythm.
We may not win the league this year, but we will be young, exciting, competitive, and Arsene will grow this squad into a force to be reckoned with.
July 26th, 2007 at 11:08 am
Joshuad…the future is red … enjoy the ride man
Offtopic: @nipuna: Ahh sad.. i f you had been in Mumbai we cud’ve met up or sumthing.. anyway lets c …maybe I’ll come down there or u’ll come up to Mumbai some time
July 26th, 2007 at 11:13 am
Hey Guys,
New user here from India…just registered on the site…..but have been following discussions on this site with great interest over the last couple of years…finally have decided to start posting
….Have been a die hard Arsenal fan since the last 6-7 years..mainly due to their style of play and Wenger’s policy of grooming players.
Regarding this season…i believe that the boys are going to surprise everyone with good performances…..may not be enough to win the league but we’ll definitely be in the Top 4. The boys have shown flashes of their brilliance over the past year and i guess it’s all about maintaining some consistency in form which should really start to happen from this season.
I’ve seen a lot of people criticizing Helb..but too my mind..he’s a real asset to the team…..his lack of goals is a bit of a problem…but if you’ve noticed for a lot of goals for last season….Hleb was involved with a pass just before the goal was scored. He really brings something different to the team..and if as he said today he decides to work on his shooting ability..he’s going to have a great season.
Slightly disappointed with the loss yesterday..but then it’s only a pre-season friendly
….. looks like Diaby will be the one to watch out for this season..
Wouldn’t mind a big signing before the window closes…..but the sheer potential of these youngsters is going to keep me hooked for all of next season.
Cheers
Wayne
July 26th, 2007 at 11:17 am
Understand, I’m not upset. I haven’t predicted a season of doom and gloom. I haven’t lost patience with the team. I’m not moaning. I’m not using this game as a barometer for what the season will be like and all the other blah-blah-blah. I know this game doesn’t mean anything. I just don’t want for us to follow the same path to mediocrity from last season because of our inability to score goals.
We lost to a very bad team and from what I’ve heard, it’s the same reason that we dropped so many points last year to lesser teams; impotence in attack. I don’t care that it was a pre-season match. I know that everytime I step onto the pitch, I want to win. The only difference between a pre-season match and a competitive one is that I won’t take certain risks. But I’m still going to play to win and if any of you have a competitive bone in your body and you tell me you don’t care if you win every game you play, I’ll tell you that you’re full of sh*t.
July 26th, 2007 at 11:19 am
Welcome Aboard Wayne
. Yeah interstingly Hleb spoke today about his bad shooting. He very rarely speaks much so if he’s saying something then AW must’ve spoken to him about the problem and the pressure him not shooting puts on the strikers. well lets c what happens shall we. They all talk specially Willy Gallas 
, hopefully they can convert that into action.
July 26th, 2007 at 12:26 pm
@josh
“While I agree that pre-season results don’t mean anything, the fact that it’s a recurring theme that we dominate games and still somehow fail to score goals is the worry.”
If you agree that they don’t mean anything, then let it go. This wasn’t the starting XI. This wasn’t mid-season form. And most importantly, this wasn’t a match that mattered.
The goals will come. Quit worrying about it.
July 26th, 2007 at 12:36 pm
Why don’t we start a need thread. Too much scrolling down.
July 26th, 2007 at 1:21 pm
Josh, just to quote something Tony Adams wrote in his book – he hates to play games with NOTHING AT STAKE.
Anyway, i agree whatever games we play, even in a fantasy league, nobody likes to lose. (I had even come across folks who bought two teams and tried to cheat for a league title with a few fantasy basketball league i played before).
but i think there is a different INTENSITY for players when facing different type of competitions. Take NBA playoff, some players, or should I say majority of them would lift their game for playoff than regular season.
Likewise in a preseason friendly, if I were a player, and an established first teamer, I think my main concern is not trying to score 3 goals and play a stormer. First thing first I would want to be careful not to get injuried so that someone else would take my place, I may not be able to win it back.
And if i were the manager, I dont think i would be telling the players that u must go out grab a win. I would tell them to concentrate work on the things we did in training, to get the shape right. And to the key players like Fabregas, watch your steps, just relax and enjoy the runout, and don’t push urself too hard and get hurt.
Personally, I think if the whole team come out of all the preseason game without getting injuried, that’s better than winning all the preseason matches.
u look at that West Ham new signing, out for 6 months without even play a single minute for the club. last thing u want is to have things happened to our club.
July 26th, 2007 at 2:04 pm
There must be a way of making this forum more user friendly – it’s a bloody joke at the moment having to scroll through 100s of posts to read people’s comments and you cant reply to anyone individually.
July 26th, 2007 at 2:05 pm
And you can’t even edit your posts either.
July 26th, 2007 at 2:28 pm
yeah the lack of editing sucks. 180 posts is a lot….new thread admins!!!
July 26th, 2007 at 2:35 pm
You can always post a new story… that would be easiest.
July 26th, 2007 at 2:43 pm
Joshuad, your concerns have definite merit.
When games get tight, when it comes to crunch time, when the big moment in a game arises… star players step up into the spotlight. Thats what seperates them for the most part. Clutch performers. Players that can change a game by themselves at times.
Michael Jordan / Larry Bird wanted the ball for the last shot to win it (or lose it).
You want Pujols or Ortiz or Jeter batting with the game on the line.
You expect Manning or Brady to march the team down the field in the last 2 minutes for the win.
When I say we don’t have star players, thats what I am talking about for the most part. We don’t have players that step up in the clutch (yet). Sometimes players grow into it. When the clock was counting down last year, and we were tied or behind against teams we should be thumping, nobody stepped up very often. It comes with experience of having done it, and believing you ARE going to do it again. I wouldn’t expect these kids to do that just yet. Hopefully, someone will step into that void we have. If not, we will have similar results as last year.
July 26th, 2007 at 3:08 pm
Stag, I do believe that in RvP we have that player, who can finish a game on his own, who have the courage to do that. He is not a “star” yet but he has more balls than Henry in my opinion.
July 26th, 2007 at 4:09 pm
Sheed, I like RVP.
I think he could be quite a player.
But please, he couldn’t carry Henry’s lunch.
He’s never done anything for a full season.
Don’t compare the two. Its like comparing Apples and Horse Shoes.
July 26th, 2007 at 4:38 pm
Comapring apples and horseshoes is what you get when you are comparing Jeter and Manning to anyone on the pitch in a EPL match. Totally incomparable.
And we have seen RvP with the ball and the game on the line… Is your memory so short that you don’t even remember January 21, 2007?
He came on and got the equalizer in a match that Arsenal were in very real danger of losing at that point. Forget that TH got the go ahead — up to that point, which I believe (from memory) was in the 79 or 80th minute, it’s 1-0 United. without RvP’s goal, Arsenal tie at best.
And likewise, you should stop comparing everyone to TH.
First off, He’s gone. Get on with it already.
Secondly, he wasn’t a star when he came to Arsenal. It took him some time.
July 26th, 2007 at 4:55 pm
Stag, I didn’t say that van Persie is a better player than Henry. I said that he has more guts to decide a winner in a tight game than Henry, that’s all. And as Rye said, Henry wasn’t a star when he came, neither were Pires and Ljungberg, our best players when it was time to score the winner. So have some faith and hopefully these youngsters will become “stars” like the previous ones.
July 26th, 2007 at 4:58 pm
Gongratulations to Thierry, he has scored his first goal for Barca, and guess what, it was a game-winner in the 89th minute against………..Dundee Utd
))))))))))))