Jul 27
According to a recent Economist article, European politicians are considering ways to level the playing field for football teams. Egalitarian proponents claim that fans will not continue to support their clubs and leagues if only a select few continue to dominate their league. However, the NBA gained world notoriety when Michael Jordan was at the helm leading the Bulls to six titles and professional golf has gained larger galleries as a direct result of Tiger Woods winnings. So, maybe dominance by a few isn’t all bad for sport. Back to the EPL, what does the future hold if the top 4 continue to dominate, at the expense of the other 16 clubs?
88 Responses to “Fair Play on the Pitch?”
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July 27th, 2007 at 9:06 am
I say its capitalism and there is pretty much nothing one can do about it - except fight and struggle to join the elite, dominating and benefiting group.
July 27th, 2007 at 9:18 am
Nothing one can do about it? It has been done in other sports - salary cap, revenue sharing, draft system, draft order by standing, no relegation system, etc. Yes, it can be done.
However, I’m not for any of it. It’s one of the reasons I like the EPL. I actually miss the Yankees of the 50s and 60s, the Packers of the 60s, the Cowboys of the 70s, the Celtics of those eras, and a few teams since.
The teams that people remember the most, and the ones we have watched the most, are the ones that dominated the most.
July 27th, 2007 at 9:41 am
If this report has any truth then how come the Bundesliga now has the highest average attendances of any professional soccer league in the world - and yet it’s the least competitive. In its 44 year history Bayern Munich has won 18 titles, and in the last 14 years both Bayern and Dortmund have wrapped up 11 titles between them.
Since its conception, England has pretty much been dominated by Liverpool, Man Utd and in the last 20 years Arsenal - they have 47 titles between them, yet top flight football is more popular here than its ever been with new stadiums springing up everywhere to accomodate supporters etc.
So why they want to level the playing field is anyone’s guess, football is more popular than it’s ever been.
July 27th, 2007 at 9:55 am
I think we were lucky, to catch the SKY/CL/EPL “money train” on time when it all started in the early 90s.
If you started supporting Arsenal BEFORE that than you would know how LUCKY we are.
When I started supporting Arsenal, Liverpool, Everton were the dominated force, Spurs was got a very talented side.
Now imagine HAD SKY/EPL/CL invented back then, now Arsenal would be enjoying a status like Everton, Aston Villa - constant mid table side. And with ZERO chance breaking into the top 4. No CL money, no hope, no prayer. Unless a sugar daddy comes alone.
Now we are in the shoes of Arsenal TODAY, naturally ppl may say what’s the problem? It’s better the big 4 dominate forever, so we will always have a chance of a trophy or two each year.
But think of the rest of the sides outside the big 4.
They are where they are today not only because some mismanagment at the past, but also because they were some what unlucky to miss the “MONEY TRAIN”.
The SKY/EPL/CL “Money Train” had a snow ball effect, once you caught on it in time, u qualify for CL every year, you got more $$$ from CL, and allow u go out and buy better players, then increasing ur chance to go back next year and qualify for CL again, and getting more $$…..
Under this soft of circumstance, how the rest of the clubs stand a chance?
Imgaine that, even back in the mid 90s, when Bruce Rioch was in charge, and HAD we never HIRED Arsene Wenger, we would probably end up as one of the annual mid table side every year by now.
So personally, I am all for the salary cap, like the Ruby league - which allow u to not spending more than 50% of the income u generate on salary, and gives everybody a chance.
I want to watch a COMPETITION, not a top team trophy collection act every year.
Apart from Chelsea, Man U, Arsenal and Liverpool, how many clubs won the EPL or FA Cup the past decade or so? like folks been predicting on previous post. I know how ppl can predict the league, but when folks can actually predict the CUP as well, u got a serious problem here. That means - everyone knows it’s either the big 4 sides winning the two cups as well.
I used to enjoy watching Wimbledon beating Liverpool to the FA Cup, and Coventry beating Spurs at the FA Cup final. at least those games still stick in my memory. not likely to happen any time soon.
Domination for the big clubs also means high expectation from the fans of those clubs. When u had ppl moan about a preseason defeat, tell me that is a good thing of this soft of DOMINATION.
July 27th, 2007 at 10:25 am
@fstanin:
a big difference is that all the major sports bodies: NBA, NFL, etc are pretty much companies who “own” all their franchises and can make any rules they please.
the EPL and other european leagues are pretty much just associations of top flight teams with NON constant members.
in that sense, the US sports can put salary caps cos they are companies regulating their OWN business….while in europe the EPL and others doing the same will be illegal…..because the EPL isnt a company!
in theory the salary capping and revenue sharing (in some way) i have no problem with. but the american draft system and no-relegation is extremely silly!
July 27th, 2007 at 10:42 am
I totally agree with what Andez said, but Fred you are also right, it would be harder to do that kind of thing in a European football league than it is to do it in the US sports leagues. I wouldn’t mind seeing a salary cap though.
July 27th, 2007 at 11:05 am
A salary cap wouldn’t do it for me. The revenue sharing is already there with the tv money being split. However, IMO more money should go to the lower divisions. Not a lot but a little. That will improve the game in england immensly. I.E. better facilities and coaching.
Plus why not try and flip the money upside down? Instead of the money trickling down from the most going to the best to the least to the worst team. Flip it around. give the promoted sides the most money. That will give those teams a better chance to compete. I think it might also light a fire under the arses of the perennially mediocre mid table teams.
The big teams will still be big. They are global brands. And while it is true that ManU, Chelsea, Arsenal and Liverpool bring in the most money for the league, if you share the wealth a bit better or at least more evenly the quality of the whole league should improve.
I realize you can’t really compare the two but look at the NFL. It is possible to go from worst to first and every team has the money to go the distance. At the beginning of the year EVERY team can realisticly be shooting for the play-offs and 10-12 teams are shooting for the Super Bowl.
July 27th, 2007 at 11:12 am
Building on the fact that you can only field 11 players on the field, I would like to see a cap on the number of players in a side.
Like in the WC, you can field only 23, we can have a limit of say 25. Now every manager will have think carefully before signing say 5 star forwards or something like that. He has to manage his team well between defenders, midfielders and strikers.
To accommodate for injuries, you can have some caveats like an injured person can be replaced by another player, but the original player can’t play any more, and the replacing player should come from a pre-fixed set of say 10 players who can be from the youth setup.
Of course, players can be replaced during the transfer window, but only 1 for 1.
I believe something nice can be built on this idea.
July 27th, 2007 at 11:35 am
I am not in favor of a salary cap. However, it would be fun to watch all the managers operate under salary constraints. Wenger would dominate them all.
July 27th, 2007 at 12:32 pm
A salary cap is an interesting idea and has certainly helped make the NFL more competitive, however throwing more money at newly promoted or low to mid table clubs won’t solve any problems unless the management is there. As a fan of MLB’s Baltimore Orioles, I’ve seen that money without the wisdom to use it wisely results in mediocrity.
I hope European politicians can stay out of it.
July 27th, 2007 at 12:55 pm
Danny, supporters of EPL in that article and the related article said that the EU politicians should leave the EPL alone. they point to the Chicago Bulls of the ’90s, Tiger Woods, etc. and show how certain leagues have gained popularity when there have been dominant teams. the EPL may be at its highest following in its history.
July 27th, 2007 at 1:07 pm
Salary caps are why MLS has been such a poor league by comparison to the majors in Europe, and there is no way you’d get a salary cap in European football anyway.
Besides the G-14 having their say (all of whom are big spenders), FIFA can’t even manage what are smaller issues by comparison — the Tevez saga immediately comes to mind… the way the fiasco in Serie A last year was laughable (AC Milan and Lazio both managed to talk their ways out of relegation)… think about it. Who has the power to enforce a salary cap?
Even ff the FA did manage to do it, if the FFF, Germans, Spaniards and Italians didn’t, no one would want to play in England. It would be suicide for the FA.
No, the answer is simply that the bigger clubs (and anyone who aspires to be a bigger club) will need to do what Liverpool and others are doing — following in the footsteps of Arsenal and building new grounds.
Man U is an exception, of course, as Old Trafford, while it is a venerable building, has been updated over the years, and is already a 5-Star venue.
Doesn’t matter that much anyway. It’s been like this for years, andeven before the era of all-seater stadiums and the founding of the EPL, the lower divisions in the English League have been fine. Not everyone wants or has the ability to shell out the kind of money it costs to attend an EPL match these days.
Why do you think teams like Stockport County, Sheffield Wednesday and Hull City still do well? I can’t remember the Owls ever being in the EPL (they may have, but it’s been a long while), and Hull and County haven’t ever been in it.
There is more to football than deep pockets and unfortunately we’ve become too Americanized in our understanding of sport through the lens of uber-Capitalism.
July 27th, 2007 at 1:09 pm
And oh, by the way (this is completely off topic but I was going to post it before I went on my rant)
Looks like the inaugural Emirates Cup will likely be going to one of the other invitees. Ade, Theo and Rosicky are all out. Here’s the story from the official site:
http://www.arsenal.com/article.asp?thisNav=News&article=479114&lid=NewsHeadline&Title=Adebayor,+Rosicky+and+Walcott+to+miss+Emirates+Cup
July 27th, 2007 at 1:43 pm
@SeattleGunner - good thread. It occurs to me that one of the reasons that “the EPL may be at its highest following in its history” (at least here in north america, but can be applied to europe as well) might be based more on technology than on it’s setup, policies, etc. The internet allows unlimited access to team news, sites like this one, streaming video, etc. And, cable television brings the EPL into your living room - 5 or more games a week. No more running down to the newsstand to look for a UK paper with the 3-days late scores. Better and more access brings in more fans to the game and the league.
@ryecatcher773 - I wish I could agree that “salary caps are why MLS has been such a poor league by comparison to the majors in Europe.” It certainly is a factor in perhaps not being able to attract top quality european and south american and african stars, but I think it is much more than that (I don’t think lifiting the cap would get us up to that level alone). The best american players aren’t the same quality as those in Europe - look at Landon Donovan as a prime example. Also, there is no equivalent to the Champions League here (a big attraction to playing in europe), travel within a domestic league is an order of magnitude greater in the U.S, and I’m sure there are other more significant reasons.
July 27th, 2007 at 1:57 pm
The biggest difference between professional sports in the US and in Europe is that in the US, managment can do what ever they want to and their franchise is still going to be in the top flight. If they don’t want to spend big to be competitive they don’t have to and they’ll maintain their status as a “big league” franchise. They can present the illusion of trying to be competitive and pocket all the money. People will still come to the games just to socialize.
Adding a salary cap would make European leagues more competitive. In the NFL, no one can predict who will win the Super Bowl. Because the playing field is level on financial terms, anybody can win it during any season.
July 27th, 2007 at 6:35 pm
And the draft system definitely makes sense in American sports. It definitely levels the playing field in some respect.
If you are a small market team, or the team has a bad season due to injury, etc… then they get the best choices of the young players turning professional.
It gives them first shot at getting better … and these players don’t make 10million per year either.
In the EPL, the rich get richer. The best teams get the best young players, because they have the most money, and they can often hand pick who they want. What hope is there for a Sunderland or Derby if they develop a great young player, and United or Arsenal or Chelsea come knocking and steal the player away with cash. Thats why the Top 4 will remain the same for quite some time. One might drop to 5th or 6th one year… but for the most part, the best young players aren’t drafted, making the lower teams better, or giving them hope.
July 28th, 2007 at 1:47 am
Well, they aren’t stealing a player away. They are buying him. That is a far cry from the system we have in place in American sports. You lose a guy through free agency, and you get nothing (and don’t tell me that compensatory draft picks are worth anything).
If Sunderland and Derby sell a player, they get money back. How they invest that is their own business.
We cannot and should not keep trying to apply the American way of doing things to European sports leagues. It’s a whole different ball game. You have 10 clubs (that I can immediately name off the top of my head) who play in London alone — and 5 of them are in the EPL this year.
I don’t want to see a draft or a salary cap. Football in Euope is far more tribal than anything going on in sports in the US. Maybe NCAA Football can compare — Florida, USC, Ohio State, Michigan are all very competitive and the Top 25 rarely features any school without a big program for any extended period of time.
But that doesn’t stop people from the smaller schools from enjoying the game.
It’s the whole American idea of sports as a business that is starting to ruin the European game in the first place — think it’s any coincidence that the Glazers and the Gillettes are involved in the big four? Or that Russia’s biggest business man, who fashions himself on the American model, is also in there? Now Kroenke is snooping around Arsenal, and Randy Lerner has taken over Villa.
To what end? That is what Hill-Wood and the board are asking.
But whatever. Profit sharing and salary caps haven’t changed anything in American sports. If you believe they have, go talk to some Royals fans, or Arizona Cardinals fans. The Royals haven’t been very good since the 80’s. And that was before the era of free agency really kicked in. And the Cardinals have sucked pretty much every year since they came into the NFL: on Chicago’s South Side. Changing cities twice and owners countless times hasn’t fixed them.
In England, you have teams like Leeds and Nottingham Forest who have huge followings but haven’t been playing in the top flight for a while, or haven’t won anything in ages… so what’s your point? You think profit sharing and a salary cap are going to make people care more?
Unlike some of the people who post on here, a lot of people from a lot of small towns all over Europe couldn’t care less… they will follow their team no matter what division they play in. They can at least afford to attend the matches… and pretty much everyone can play for the FA Cup… and almost as many can play for the Carling Cup. They all have a League to win.
Quit trying to Americanize it. Our way isn’t always the best way.
July 28th, 2007 at 3:29 am
and coming to think of it…..a salary cap will actually hurt the smaller teams!
the big clubs are already attractive to players…..but the smaller clubs usually have to offer inflated terms to attract prospects, this summer it has been West Ham.
if u put a salary cap, say no club can spend more than 60% of its income on salaries, then Arsenal, Man U, Liverpool and Spurs will probably be OK with this (am not sure about Chelsea though), and West Ham, Newcastle, Portsmouth and any other clubs buying a lot will have a problems.
as for the draft system, it is incredibly stupid to reward the weakest. so in spain, gymnatic would be rewarded with the latest messis and agueros. while the latest meridas, walcotts, etc would go to the useless youthsetups at a last place derby county!
July 28th, 2007 at 5:09 am
No Eduardo, Walcott, Rosicky or Adebayor for Emirates cup. Arsenal might get 60,000 fans looking for a refund if they’re not too careful.
July 28th, 2007 at 6:25 am
Come on now, u don’t seriously think fans go into stadium expecting Arsenal to win the preseason friendly Emirates Cup, or my money back huh?
And if u r talking about star attraction, since when Adebayor, Rosicky the likes become the biggest stars in Arsenal? Didn’t somebody say we don’t have “stars” in our team?
Eduardo hasn’t got a work permit, Walcott, Rosicky, Adebayor feeling a bit effect after the training camp, I for one will not believe any one of the fans go into stadium today do not understand AW’s decision to rest them, and crying out for money back. Geez.
July 28th, 2007 at 8:54 am
Rye, if you think the EPL isn’t already big business, you haven’t got a clue.
I don’t care whether a salary cap is implemented in England or not, as I support one of the big 4. The question is, fairness. Its a league for 4 teams, and every one else. A bigger version of Scotland… where its 2 teams and everyone else.
Fred, you apparently don’t understand the salary cap. It has nothing to do with income. Every team would have the same CAP. The “cap” doesn’t care how much you make or how much money your owner has. So it definitely levels the playing field and allows many more teams a chance at top players and brings more parity to the league.
A salary cap would be a big advantage to Arsene Wenger… because he already has a self imposed salary cap. He already works in a system where he doesn’t spend big on players very often.
But unless ALL of Europe had a salary cap, then no individual league could have one. It wouldn’t work.
The draft system is only stupid if you don’t understand it. Again, if you want to keep the top teams at the top… for year after year after year, with the lesser teams with little or no chance of getting a trophy, then yes, the draft doesn’t make sense.
Without a draft system, we reward the teams with the most money, who just overpay or outbid the small market teams without the financial clout.
If you want Liverpool, Arsenal, United and Chelsea to win every trophy, every year… until the next billionaire buys a team, and they can by their way into the elite group… then yes, a salary cap and a draft make little sense.
The US system works very well in US Sports.
The English League is hugely popular all over the world, and it is most definitely BIG BUSINESS, so they aren’t going to change a thing about the system. Nor should they at the moment, unless you start having drops in popularity and attendences. Thats not happening right now, so the discussions are interesting, but not serious in nature.
July 28th, 2007 at 9:49 am
“The English League is hugely popular all over the world, and it is most definitely BIG BUSINESS, so they aren’t going to change a thing about the system. Nor should they at the moment, unless you start having drops in popularity and attendences. Thats not happening right now, so the discussions are interesting, but not serious in nature.”
Very good points. In a long run, the bubble will bust, and the effect of a monopoly league will show.
in fact, some of the grounds already can’t fill the stadium these days.
July 28th, 2007 at 10:07 am
@ stag: the draft system is utterly daft in every conceivable way. rewarding the worst!
plus the clubs OWN the youth players from the start. the draft works in the US because the american franchises are BIG, GREEDY and dont give a dying duck about the community. so they have no “youth setup”. they get their players who have already been trained at colleges.
so stop your argument about the draft right there.
as for the salary cap. a fixed some does not make sense. because there are clubs of ALL sizes…from those who struggle to fit 5000 stadiums to those who sell out 80,000. so a fixed some wont make sense because they dont earn the same.
in the US all the franchises are already of the approximately the same size so they can fix a sum. in essence your argument points are nonsensical.
July 28th, 2007 at 10:20 am
starting:
almunia,
sagna, toure, senderos, clichy
flamini, fabregas, denilson, diaby
bendtner, RvP
why oh why is diaby playing on the left?
and flamini on the right?? its at time like this one wonders what is going on in wengers head!
anyways, a friendly lets hope we, and they learn something….and no injuries.
July 28th, 2007 at 10:22 am
@ Stags:Never said the EPL wasn’t already big business. What I said was, stop trying to apply American ideas to the English game. It is the EPL that has created the disparity and it was a controversial idea when it began less than 20 years ago.
Don’t make it worse by trying to tinker with a system rooted in a culture far deeper than anything we have over here.
Doesn’t really matter anyway, it’s not like they’re going to do anything. This is all speculation on our part.
And incidentally, watch your tone. I do have a clue, and I don’t like people talking to me like that — and for someone who points out another member of this community that talks smack from behind a keyboard, you ought to practice what you preach.I don’t always agree with people, but I am respectful about it.I expect the same in return.
Alright, match time! Starting lineups being announced….
July 28th, 2007 at 10:35 am
The number of options to try to level the playing field is large, but what works really depends on the context. The things that work reasonably well in the US will not necessarily work in the rest of the world. Some differences: In the US, top level sports leagues have no competiton but each other - the world market for top american football players is the NFL, so any NFL league rules effectively cover the whole market. If the EPL somehow restricts their league competition in a way that La Liga doesn’t, it better players will move to La Liga and while competitiveness within the EPL may improve, the entertainment value and fan base might decline. What do people pay to watch? The best players, the best style, winning, or competitiveness?
As mentioned above, american professional sports do not have promotion/relegation, lower divisions in the same sense as the rest of the world, or international competitions.
It has been argued that because there is no relegation, in fact, poor performance is rewarded with better draft picks, American professional sports are less competitive. But that neglects the generally weaker connection between American fans and their sports teams; fewer people show up to watch losing teams, and that’s fewer tickets sales, beer and food sales, parking fee sales, etc. Liverpool and many other EPL clubs will fill their stadia even when they have bad years. American teams, barring the Packers and the Cubs and a few others, will not.
July 28th, 2007 at 10:46 am
Diaby and Clichy are looking decent today… Denilson is in there trying, but needs to work on passing more accurately… still scoreless at 23 mins.
July 28th, 2007 at 10:58 am
Whenever they have played together, it has been Denilson in the middle and Diaby on the left. Have no clue why.
July 28th, 2007 at 11:05 am
Van Persie needs to keep his composure better
July 28th, 2007 at 11:08 am
Flamini makes it 1-0 at stoppage time!
July 28th, 2007 at 11:12 am
Was it Mazza who said that Flamini will surprise people with goals?
July 28th, 2007 at 11:12 am
1-0
flamini has been a shower of sh-te….then he goes on to score on the stroke of halftime.
July 28th, 2007 at 11:13 am
The beauty of it was that Bendtner was there to show what I think is his biggest advantage (literally) — his size. The kid is tall and strong, and while he doesn’t have a lot of pace, he does have presence. As soon as he can get past looking like a clumsy Great Dane (maybe that’s a future nickname for him) puppy playing with seasoned greyhounds, he’ll be spot on.
Decent first half, looked really good early on, then a rather flat mid section, capped off with Flamini putting Arsenal on the board off Bendtner’s deflection.
July 28th, 2007 at 11:25 am
I’m afraid not Nipuna.
I hate it when Flamini scores these goals. It gives him another stay of execution and misleads Wenger to thinking he is half-decent.
Shite display, but looking at the teamsheet, it was completely predictable.
Diaby and Denilson both doing feck all again. To be fair, Diaby is out of position but he could at least look like he gives a toss.
July 28th, 2007 at 11:33 am
yeah, me too i really hate it when flamini scores……flamini was practically a giant hole on the right.
July 28th, 2007 at 11:46 am
Not a big fan of Flamini, but I can’t honestly say that I ever hate it when a Gunner scores.
July 28th, 2007 at 11:50 am
BENDTNER GETS IT! 2-0 to the Arsenal!!!
July 28th, 2007 at 11:53 am
Clichy and Diaby continue to impress… oh, Senderos is just made a nice move in the Penalty area to help Almunia…
July 28th, 2007 at 11:57 am
2-0.
i like the way bendtner bullied his way to the goal. thats exactly the type of goals we need. physical followed by a tap-in!
almunia is looking real good, he doesnt want to relinquish second spot does he?
it says a lot about flamini that eboue is an infinitely better RM than he is. yet he scores a goal to disguise the fact.
July 28th, 2007 at 11:58 am
Just occurred to me… I know its the Emirates Cup and all, but what happened to that weird sponsorship rule that had Arsenal wearing the Dubai shirts last season?
Is that only on the Continent?
Here comes Randall. Clichy had a really good showing today.
July 28th, 2007 at 11:59 am
Mazza, I am not worried about Flamini. He is, at best, 5th choice CM, and to be fair to him, he gives his all when on the pitch. And he has pitched in with crucial goals last season vs Liverpool and Chelsea.
My main worry is the wings. Of course, when Rosicky and Hleb are fit and in form, everything is fine. But otherwise, Walcott is our only hope, I would prefer not to burden the youngster with so many responsibility.
Yet, Wenger knows better.
July 28th, 2007 at 12:03 pm
You know, I’m looking at Traore and thinking he could play wing. He’s quick and seems to like playing up.
Hleb gets a penalty….
July 28th, 2007 at 12:05 pm
I think Bendtner sh*t himself on that PK…. spotlight made him too hasty and he took a bad shot.
July 28th, 2007 at 12:05 pm
just when i praise almunia he lets in a near post one. lol.
hleb is playing as a support striker behind the bendtner…..maybe thats his best position
July 28th, 2007 at 12:07 pm
Man, the kid is everywhere… he’s such a big target. When he learns how to finish, look out!
July 28th, 2007 at 12:11 pm
Hey, just realised that Song is not even on the bench. With Flamini staying, is it the end for him?
July 28th, 2007 at 12:11 pm
That’s it.
July 28th, 2007 at 12:14 pm
maybe this position is the best for Hleb…..let him do those his dribbles in the box and maybe earn more pens.
i hope bendtner plays 90 mins again 2moro to settle him down further.
July 28th, 2007 at 12:14 pm
19 Mazza Says:
July 28th, 2007 at 5:09 am
No Eduardo, Walcott, Rosicky or Adebayor for Emirates cup. Arsenal might get 60,000 fans looking for a refund if they’re not too careful.
No Eduardo, No Walcott, No Rosicky, No Adebayor…. No Refund!! Arsenal 2 PSG 1.
July 28th, 2007 at 12:23 pm
FSC replayed our match vs. ManU from 1/21/07. RvP made an incredible equalizing goal. He was really beginning to emerge before his injury last season. I look forward to seeing him start a full season. Henry made an excellent header in the 93rd minute to secure a victory and a coveted 3 pts. If AW signs any more players, I would hope that player could provide coverage on either the wings or at CB and could play the ball in the air.
Something I find ironic is that America was built on the free market and capitalism, but it is the EPL and all of Europe that allow their football teams to be capitalistic and spend what they want and it is the US where we have implemented more socialistic controls in the name of fair play (except for MLB). now, that is ironic.
July 28th, 2007 at 12:27 pm
Decent performance, you can see the players are only 80% match fit.
Bendtner looked impressive, I like the lad. Diaby was superb in the center, he should never play out wide, complete waste of time. He’s beginning to look more and more like Vieira in every way - a big compliment. If he hadn’t been injured 8 months he would be 30% better still.
Hleb looked good too, I mentioned last season that this guy could win a lot of penalties if he started dribbling in the box - defenders hate players like him.
Denilson was ok, not great - he seems to be decent at everything but not outstanding at anything.
Eboue showed he can definitely play right wing.
Negatives, goal or no goal Flamini was pathetic - he reminds me of Parlour, hardworking, but useless. Toure? Love the guy but he’s starting to look a weak link with his panicking.
More and more I think we should have bought a top class, commanding centre-back and played him right wing - no need for Sagna. I think Wenger might have made a mistake not doing that, because I can see us conceding soft goals all season, but let’s see how it goes.
July 28th, 2007 at 12:30 pm
Sorry, I meant Toure should play RIGHT BACK. It seems so obvious, big chap next to Gallas, Toure full back.
July 28th, 2007 at 12:35 pm
We have to get our penalty taking sorted out. Last season, we got more penalties than any other team. I don’t know if we missed more than any other, but I do feel that we are up there in terms of misses.
July 28th, 2007 at 12:49 pm
Ray Parlour was alot better than Mathieu Flamini. A country mile in fact, though they were similar in type.
I’m not particularly impressed by Sagna I must say. Early days but he looks worse than Justin Hoyte.
Denilson was Denilson. Sent me to sleep but he is good kid and has a good attitude.
Diaby alot better in the middle. Hleb is was class again. Right-wing restricts him too much.
Overall nothing much has changed since last season. We still seem ill at ease playing at the Emirates and the players never seem on the same page. People say we play too central, I say we play too wide. How many times do we play a generic ball out wide when someone makes a great run through the centre? Apart from when Hleb and Rosicky are playing, we have a very mechanical and tedious way of playing that belies our reputation.
July 28th, 2007 at 1:02 pm
Sorry Mazza, it was Scotty who said that Flamini will score more goals.
July 28th, 2007 at 1:16 pm
Mazza, I think width is what we need more of, or at least the diversity to switch play and not play everything through the middle all the time which was getting so easy to negate.
The problem now is, we play with more width but no-one gets in the box on the end of things, this is a tactical cock up. When Eboue crosses there should be 4 players anticipating that cross. Not 2, one of which is in the edge standing there wondering what’s going to happen.
The team needs to move forward and backwards as a unit, and this would be easier if they player higher up the pitch as a unit. At both games recently there has been far too big a gap between defence, midfield and attack, so the attackers are getting isolated, and when a cross comes in there is no support. This improves at home slightly but the team needs to be more aggressive and push the opponents back into their own box.
July 28th, 2007 at 1:25 pm
Seattlegunner, If you watched that game on FSC i think you may have noticed the same thing i did. It seems to me that AW is putting together a very interesting squad. with the wing backs, midfielders interchanging while going forward. All making runs. Center mids going wide, wings coming inside and falling back to cover the fullbacks. And forwards tracking back quite a bit as well.
I saw the game for the second time and it surprised me how much movement was going on on the attacking end. Also Senderos looked pretty good in that game.
To watch games like that is always a joy. Two evenly matched teams. Great teams battle it out back and forth. Star players making great plays.
And best of all Cesc completly and totally out shining Scholes. It was like he wasn’t even on the pitch.
July 28th, 2007 at 1:28 pm
Yeah, we can definately switch play alot better. That is largely dependant on tempo, and we seem to struggle to grasp that fact at the Emirates until the second half. I still think we take the easy option when we break on teams by passing it out wide to the overlapping Clichy or Hoyte/Eboue, when we often have a central runner in a good postion waiting for a ball. We should use the full backs as decoys more often and not actually pass to them every time, because more often than not the cross doesn’t clear the first man.
I think we should use width earlier on the move and then get central at the last minute and play give and goes or shoot. As you’ve conceded, most of our crossing is wasted anyway because no one is really comfortable attacking the ball. Playing it central should really be the way to go considering our style of play. It’s all about improvisation though.
July 28th, 2007 at 1:30 pm
Danny heres a question with regards to Denilson. You obviously watched todays game. Haven’t we said in the past the same things about Gilberto? I kind of think that is the position Denilson will end up playing when Bert leaves.
Does that make sense to you?
July 28th, 2007 at 1:35 pm
I have maintained since middle of last season that we need a big, mean CB along with Gallas. Our weaknesses with the bouncing balls in the box, crosses and corners will yet again be exploited in the coming months….the problem is that there is no one out there that fits the CB bill. We have supposedly made an offer for Chelsea’s Lassana Diarra…..a third/fourth pick R back for them; can he be a CB????? Seems a bit short for me, don’t know….
How I would love to have PSV’s Alex………I’m dreamin’
Positives:
Good run out for all.
Bendtner’s goal will give him confidence…I like this kid; he looks solid.
Diaby will be a tower in the middle in 6-12 months.
Sagna looks solid
Eboue in R wing is a good option
Hleb still can’t shoot
July 28th, 2007 at 1:37 pm
I guess Hleb’s non-shooting is a negative not a positive!!!
July 28th, 2007 at 1:47 pm
Biggun, you seem to be very observant when it comes to Hleb’s lack of shooting prowess but blissfully ignorant when it comes to his dribbling skills and ability to create something from very little. Who would prefer to play in his place, some talentless English twat like Downing?
July 28th, 2007 at 1:50 pm
as i’ve said countlessly before denilson is a replacement for gilberto…..yet a lot of people here continue to call him a new or substandard fabregas!
he is a DM in my view. he was a DM before he came to arsenal and when he played for brazils U-20 … so i dont understand why people are complaining that he doesnt “bring anything”. DMs break play and give the ball efficiently….him trying a few fancy stuff doesnt make him an AM.
Sagna is starting to seem pointless after just 3 games. He is an OK player but he doesnt look exceptional…..and if he isnt exceptional he is pretty pointless….especially as we have SIX defenders who can comfortably play there (and i didnt even count senderos). Sagna is a nonentity upfront and is hoyte-like at the back. against familiar french opposition he should have shone….but then again its early days and i really hope he improves.
all in all wenger should have used the sagna money to buy a new winger so we wouldnt have to play flamini at RM. he should never ever, ever, ever play there again. infact he should only be a backup at LB. nothing else.
July 28th, 2007 at 1:54 pm
I think it was a good run out for them today. The first half looked a bit disjointed. I think this is because Arsenal had no real wide players on the field. In the second half, when Eboue was put on the right flank, I think it widened the field and gave other plays like Hleb more space to operate. I think Bendtner will be a nice option up front. I can’t really remember Arsenal having a player like him during the Wenger years. Kanu was excellent at holding the ball up but he did it in a more technical and creative way. Bendtner looks like he will do it with strength and power. Perhaps he will be able to come back and help defend crosses and free kicks in our box as well. Like others, I am still convinced we need a commanding center back. But I don’t see us buying one this year. All in all, the team looked decent without some of its important players.
Has Djourou played in any of the pre-season friendlies yet? I am curious as to whether or not he will be loaned out.
July 28th, 2007 at 1:56 pm
@ mazza: hlebs dribbling is dangerous against us when he does it near the centre circle……but more useful near or in the box…..as small fouls in the center are usually overlooked by refs….while fouls in the box’s vicinity are usually penalized.
so he is best as a support striker or in a 4-3-3.
July 28th, 2007 at 1:59 pm
@ brendan: i really hope nobody else is loaned out or sold (except song). we are already thin as it is. and 4 CBs is not too many so he should stay.
i think he has an injury thats why he hasnt played so far.
July 28th, 2007 at 2:01 pm
as for randall, the kid has no real exceptional qualities we can get excited about. typically english!
July 28th, 2007 at 2:02 pm
As I said, Wenger sold Lauren in Jan and then spent 6-7M on Sagna. I can’t seem to figure that out.
July 28th, 2007 at 2:18 pm
Thanks for the update Fred. I did find his absence a bit conspicuous. I am sort of conflicted on him possibly being loaned out. I agree with you that we are a bit thin. And I like him more than Senderos as third choice (although I don’t think Wenger does) However, I don’t think that we can realistically win the title this year. I think we are more geared towards contending a year or two from now. If Djourou went out on loan to a Birmingham or Reading type club and played every week, he would be in a better position to contribute in a year or two. It is kind of a catch 22 with him as to how to get him more experience over the present needs of the club.
July 28th, 2007 at 2:24 pm
@aqh1977:
Yeah, I think the two are very similar. But Gilberto obviously has the intelligence that comes with playing that role for many years. I don’t think you can expect Denilson to bring that into his play for quite some time, so we have to hope the lad is patient and doesn’t mind playing a bit part for 3-4 years as Gilberto is only 30.
I don’t see where else Denilson can play, I’m not in favour of playing him on the wing like Diaby as they are both 50% less effective there.
July 28th, 2007 at 2:41 pm
Denilson doesn’t look like a particularly effective defensive midfielder either. He doesn’t possess the athleticism to cover the ground and the physical presence to effectively buffer the back four. As I said before, he is the Brazilian Xabi Alonso, a crab who scurries around switching play but not doing enough to justify a place. He can get away with such a limited game with players like Rosicky and Hleb playing because they are dribblers and he just has to feed them. He’s bluffing everyone at the moment purely because he is Brazilian and people imagine every pass he does has some Brazilian touch to it when in fact it’s just a straightforward A to B pass.
Denilson should be in the reserves and Wenger should buy another central midfielder to battle with Fabregas, Diaby and Gilberto.
July 28th, 2007 at 3:45 pm
Nice to see them on the pitch again in a somewhat competitive match today. Not sure we can take a lot from the match, as I don’t think the teams were fit enough to give you a true glimpse of what they’ll be… but a win is never bad, and will help confidence of a young team. (even in a friendly)
2 games in 2 days, I am not sure why we do that… should have played Friday night / Sunday… or a different schedule.
I would imagine we’ll see almost an entirely different team tomorrow. We don’t need any injuries this soon!
Flamini is a useFUL player. He plays a number of positions, and gives his all every time out. He has scored some goals, more than others playing for more often than he does. There is no negative in having him in the squad. Just like having Ray Parlour was a positive, not a negative. They don’t have the silky skills of Hleb or Fabregas, but this is England, its not all about skill. Guts, heart and effort have a big place in the equation.
OFF-TOPIC
is…
Da Silva not having a work permit!!
You’d have imagined that we would have sorted that out BEFORE we brought him in. Apparently, if he doesn’t get the permit, we are under no obligation to keep the player. (per Wenger, on Arsenal.com)
If he can’t play for us, we’ll need another striker… and Wenger mentioned that he rates Anelka very very highly, but we have enough strikers at the moment.
Does that mean if Eduardo is OUT, Anelka is a possibility?
Interesting.
July 28th, 2007 at 3:48 pm
You seem to be forgetting, he’s just 19 years old and has far higher mental and technical attributes than the vast majority of players his age. Denilson IS in the reserves, but he won’t flourish there. Like all our young players you either play them and be patient or sell them on. Personally, I think he has too much potential to sell on, and Wenger probably agrees otherwise he’d be out on loan, so he will probably be first team if someone gets injured or needs resting.
July 28th, 2007 at 3:49 pm
Above to Mazza - why can’t you edit posts on this site?
July 28th, 2007 at 4:18 pm
Mazza,
I have always said that Hleb is a talented, and skillful player. But all of his cute dribbling, running around and making people look stupid usually ends up with nothing and giving up possession…..so I don’t think I am blissfully ignorant of his talent; I just think Hleb is a talented yet wasteful player and doesn’t take opportunities well and usually makes bad decisions…….though I liked his positiveness and running at the defender to draw the PK; that is clearly is a positive.
But I personally think he is on borrowed time. This is a make or break season for him.
July 28th, 2007 at 4:28 pm
Just thought I would take a look ahead and see who we are scheduled to play during the African Cup of Nations. The tournament is scheduled for Jan 20 - Feb 10. I am assuming players will be expected to report before the 20th and Ivory Coast has a chance to progress quite far, as they were finalists last time. (not so sure about Togo)
Jan 19th - Fulham away
Jan 23rd - Carling Cup Semi 2L (potential)
Jan 26th - FA Cup 4th Round (potential)
Jan 29th - Newcastle home
Feb 2nd - Man City away
Feb 9 - Blackburn home
Assuming teams qualify and progress, and these players are selected, these players could be missing. Blackburn would miss McCarthy and Mokoena. Newcastle would miss Ameobi, Martins and Babayaro. Man City would lose Trabelsi and Fulham would lose Diop.
I realize it could be worse. We could be facing better teams. But these are games we need three points from. And if we advance in the FA Cup and Carling Cup, we will be playing a game about every three or four days for 3 weeks. I am convinced, more than ever, that we need cover at center back. And at the very least Djourou can’t go out on loan.
July 28th, 2007 at 4:40 pm
“Not sure we can take a lot from the match, as I don’t think the teams were fit enough to give you a true glimpse of what they’ll be”
Spot on.
I also agree with Stag - give Flamini a break. As some of u rightly put out - fair play to Diaby, because he’s playing out of position the first half….
But hey… didn’t Flamini himself also play out of position as well?
The goal he scored may seem to be lucky that he was at the right place the right time, but it also showed that this guy been keep running and working hard so that he would be there at the right place at the first place.
As Stag said, sometimes u need a balance - skills + steel. Surely that would be great if we got 11 talented players who could all dribble past a few defenders…. but then… Who’s gonna do the DIRTY work?
I for one feel we need a few more of Ray Parlour or Flamini, so that when things dont’ go our way, at least we will see some lads still out there running, fighting.
Players like Parlour, Flamini never quit.
July 28th, 2007 at 5:17 pm
Flamini doesn’t have steel or skills. What steel does he have? In the first half twice he just stood there and let his runner come from deep and have two strikes at goal. He runs around a lot doing pretty much nothing and we don’t need his type at the club - utter garbage. Grimandi was better than him, and that’s saying something.
July 28th, 2007 at 5:24 pm
Flamini is a squad player, nothing more, nothing less. Every squad needs someone like him, a player who can play in a variety of positions and doesn’t leave because he is not first-choice in one. Phil Neville was his Utd. equivalent for years.
Interesting game today. Was Wenger trying Clichy and Eboue in wide midfield because he wanted to see how they did before deciding whether to buy? Has he already decided to buy? Is he looking to build versatility with Hleb in central midfield rather than wide right and Diaby and Flamini also playing wide? As he said himself, this type of game lets him try things. Hope he learned we still need one wide midfielder.
As for the Da Silva situation, it was always possible that he would not get a work permit. Let us see.
I enjoyed the game. The players got a lot of confidence from being two goals up. A good start to the season may give the team a boost.
July 28th, 2007 at 5:37 pm
It’s the very inclusion of Flamini in the squad and Wenger’s persistance in him that first led me to believe Wenger had lost the plot. I mean, what sane manager would ever let someone like Flamini anywhere near their first team midfield? I guarantee Flamini would not even be taken on by a Championship side in that position never mind be permitted to command a place in a squad like Arsenal’s.
The fact that it took three years for Wenger to realise Flamini wasn’t up to it and to then belatedly let him speak to other clubs, illustrates Wenger’s weakspot in neon lights. This fundamental flaw in his managerial make-up has been running concurrently along with his many strong points thoughout his decade at Arsenal and still confounds to this day.
Wenger really is a fascinating manager. Capable of genius but also capable of complete absurdity. Life at Arsenal will never be dull with him around, that’s for sure.
July 28th, 2007 at 6:00 pm
Wenger’s PRESISTANCE in him on WHAT? How many games did Flamini play last season?
July 28th, 2007 at 6:11 pm
“Flamini doesn’t have steel or skills. What steel does he have? In the first half twice he just stood there and let his runner come from deep and have two strikes at goal.”
I tell u what Danny, if u come down to this, picking out every single little detail, then our whole team are “garbage” as you put it.
I have never seen ANY player who didn’t make a mistake or 2 in a game.
I am not Flamini’s biggest fan neither, but if a player works hard, he works hard. I wouldn’t say otherwise just because I am not a fan of him.
July 28th, 2007 at 6:25 pm
I think Flamini needs to move for his own career, I don’t understand why he wants to stay, he hasn’t a cat in hell’s chance of ever being a first team regular.
July 28th, 2007 at 6:52 pm
@ stag: what are u talking about? u buy the player THEN apply for the work permit.
July 28th, 2007 at 9:37 pm
Fred, we know what percentage international games a player has to play, and we have an idea of what it takes to get a work permit. Its not like the lottery.
Do you think we buy the player and pray he gets a permit? or do you think they should perhaps judge the liklihood of it occuring.
Does anyone remember the play of Flamini during our CL run. If not, you should, because he was very good. He can play midfield… he can play at the back… and as a squad player, thats exactly what you want. Someone who plays all over the place and might not be great anywhere, but doesn’t embarrass himself either. He is a stop-gap solution. You plug him in where needed, and he contributes with his hard work.
Flamini - 3 goals in 9 league matches last season
Cesc - 2 goals in 34
Hleb - 2 goals in 27
Rosicky - 3 goals in 22
Seems to me he scores more than many of attacking midfielders in 1/3 the matches. He scored again today. Maybe he should play more, not less!
(before you get you panties in a bunch, I’m not serious)
The fact is… he played 9 league matches. I wouldn’t really sweat or worry about Matty Flamini being on the team, he is NOT the problem. The problem is more the above players doing their job and scoring more goals.
July 28th, 2007 at 9:45 pm
About Flamini, he is 5th choice CM. Why do we worry much about him? Wenger was happy to let him go, but he chose to fight for his place. Why, we don’t know. But if someone chooses to fight, Wenger usually keeps him. See Ljunberg, Wenger was ready to keep him despite his high wages and near-zero contribution.
July 28th, 2007 at 10:27 pm
Nipuna, agreed. If Flamini plays in 10 matches and CC, then who cares? He isn’t going to cost us games.
July 29th, 2007 at 6:16 am
Boys, Denilson reminds me very much of Claude Makelele when he was at Real Madrid. He links up play, keeps possession, and does the dirty work so others ala Fab and Hleb can do their thing. Every team needs this kind of player doing their job so your stars can shine. Ask Real Madrid how they missed this Makelele kind of player. In fact remember when Gilberto was out for Arsenal? Wait on this kid.
As for Flamini, I remember writing about it last year that Flamini does an excellent job putting himself into good positions to score. His runs are very Pires-like and it’s one of the things Wenger likes about him. He scored some very good and very important goals for Arsenal last year. His goals against Chelsea and Liverpool were just well timed runs and good finishes.
As for Sagna, I’ve been quiet about him but have seen him play before. He looked good in France but England is quite different. He was the best RB in France last year but guess who was the best CB in France when we signed him; Pascal Cygan. Don’t hold your breath on him.
I also believe Djourou will play in Sunday’s game but we will see.