A bit of a follow up to my early post on expectations, here’s some recent comments by the manager of Reading:
Reading manager Steve Coppell has warned Fabregas and his fellow youngsters their free-flowing attacking football will count for nothing if they end the season trophyless.
Coppell said: “Anything less than a trophy this year will be seen as failure.
“They can play wonderful football but they will be judged on what is in the cabinet at the end of the season.
“You can sense a real confidence coming out of their camp - from the manager downwards you feel there is more of a belief than last year.
“Given the start they have made and the foundation they have, they need silverware.”
Ok, so just to be clear, Steve Coppell gets to determine what is or is not a successful season for the Arsenal. Hmm, ok. How about, just for laughs, we let Arsene Wenger determine that. Or maybe we let the Arsenal fans decide.
Would a trophyless seeason be a failure? I’m not sure. What were our expectations going into this season? As I recall, many people - fans, media, etc. - had Arsenal firmly in the ‘out of the mix’ category in early August. Now, anything less than a trophy is a failure? Not in my book. After back to back fourth place finishes, second is not a failure. Getting back to the Champions League semi-finals and losing to a quality side is not a failure.
I define success in a number of ways: Yes, trophies is high on that list, but so is playing entertaining football. Playing meaningful games is a form of success to me. How many really meaningful games will Arsenal play this year? My guess would be around 12. Tottenham? Probably around three.
Think about that concept for a moment, ‘meaningful games’. There is no way you’re going to win them all, but how great is it when we are playing Man U or Barcelona or Liverpool and for a whole week we talk, debate and worry about that match? That is the best. We probably get, on average, one or two of those a month. Spurs? Twice against us, then maybe a decent Cup knock out match. That’s it for the entire season. Dear Lord, how do those people not kill themselves?
So, my point is, we should be defining success, not the manager of a club that will be finishing in the bottom third of the table. If you, the Arsenal fan, choose to define success only by what is in the trophy cabinet that is your prerogative. I’ll disagree with you, but I will also defend your right as an Arsenal fan to hold that opinion. I hope you would have the same respect for my views as well.
26 Responses to “Just one man’s opinion”
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November 10th, 2007 at 11:02 am
The Man U fans had a difficult to understand why Arsenal fans celebrated wildly after a “home draw”? Their point is - dropping 2 points at home should consider a failure for a club like Arsenal.
But Fergie’s reaction afterward tells us the “truth story” - Man U were absoutely GUTTED.
Not because of the final result. Rather the manner they “threw away” the 3 points in the very last mintue of the match.
I am pretty sure had it been the other way around, we were the one who took the lead twice, then allowed them to equalise at the final minute, Fergie and Man U fans would have reacted completely different, probably would celebrate like winning the World Cup themselves.
My point is - although what Rick said I competely agree, we should be the one to define our club’s success or failure. And before the season started, I bet none of us would have dreamt of the position we find ourselves in at this point of season.
Nevertheless, if Arsenal keeps leading the league towards around March, and eventually we allowed another team(s) to come from behind and beat us to the title. I think inevitably we may take the season as a “failure”.
Football is an emotion game, sometimes u tend to get sucked into the middle of it without awared of it. If we blow it into the later stage of the season, it would be like conceding a cricual goal in the last minute of the match. It would be very difficult to take.
November 10th, 2007 at 11:15 am
@Andez: If we blow it into the later stage of the season, it would be like conceding a cricual goal in the last minute of the match.
I remember one year — I think it was the year after the Invincibles when we lost to a 88th minute goal to Leeds United and Mark Viduka scored a winner to win 3-2 .. that effectively sealed our title hopes. That is hard to take I agree.
Regarding the thread I think DannyT once made a great point: “The football that we play help a great deal in making me remain patient even when we get no trophies” ..
So yes while a trophy or two is great and while history will always judge us based on the trophies that we win.. for me it is not the be all and end all. I will always count myself to be privileged to have been around during the Wenger years and witnessed something close to total football…and if we win something be even prouder of the kids and feel vindicated that I chose to support Arsenal instead of ManU or Liverpool…
Also what can we say is “failure” .. its a loosely used word .. like “world-class” .. it is not objective .. even if AW himself admits that a trophyless season is a failure .. I wont admit it unless we played dire boring .. away to Slavia Prague football and ended up with no trophies. As long as we get entertained and lose well while playing hard — I will have no complaints. And anyway what right do I have to complain sitting 5000+ miles away in India watching live games? I’m no shareholder…just another big Arsenal fan….
November 10th, 2007 at 11:25 am
What Coppell says is just mind games. Every manager has their own way of doing it. Fat/Ugly Sam will say that we don’t like the rough game while Jol will say that Wenger is secure even if he doesn’t make it to the CL. Fergie has his own methods. What can we do about it? Off the pitch, not much. On the pitch, a lot. Just let the football do the talking. Thrash Reading on Monday night like last season and who cares what Coppell said.
Would a trophy-less season would be a failure? I think it’s too early to say that now. Before the season started out expectation were low. Very few thought a trophy would be possible. But now expectations are raised, and rightfully so. Of course, can’t go overboard, but we do expect a lot more. For me, no point in predicting anything now. I would say, wait till Jan and then we can set real expectations in terms of trophies.
Before the season began, my main expectation was to show a lot of improvement from last season, something we failed to do last season. I think that has already been exceeded.
November 10th, 2007 at 12:36 pm
They say that success has many parents and that failure is an orphan.
In the same way, sitting on the top of the table makes for many pundits who want to find any flaw to to take the glisten off Arsenals wonderful streak of success into this season. Everyone wants to push the guy off the top of the ladder.
That’s the sad part of sport and it’s supported by such jingoism’s as “2nd is only the first of the losers”. The truth is that everyone under 2nd remembers whose in 2nd place and 3rd perspective of your position in the table. In my opinion being 2nd is as admirable as 1rst, just that 1rst tastes better.
As for me, I’m with DannyT, and that is to watch such wonderful soccer doesn’t always mean a trophy. I’m also prepared for the eventual losses but I’m not going to sit around mopping about the future when I can enjoy the present success. We all want our beloved team to do well and just now they are so I’m enjoying every minute of it.
Silverware is great because you can drop it from the top rung of the ladder and bruise everyone as it tumbles down the ladder banishing the bottom three teams to relegation. But that’s not why I love Arsenal I’m with them win, loose or draw. The occasional bit of silverware makes it all the more worthwhile.
November 10th, 2007 at 3:01 pm
“Silverware is great because you can drop it from the top rung of the ladder and bruise everyone as it tumbles down the ladder banishing the bottom three teams to relegation. But that’s not why I love Arsenal I’m with them win, loose or draw. The occasional bit of silverware makes it all the more worthwhile.”
Gerrard, I couldn’t agree with that more. That is why I too am an Arsenal fan.
However, if I’m personally involved in a competition then I’m in it to win it. If I don’t win then I will consider it a failure. I’m sure many of the players and the boss feel the same. It’s not for Coppel or any other person outside of the club to determine what Arsenal’s success is based on. Coppel is simply scared to death of what’s coming and is trying his best to divert the focus of Monday’s game to whether we win the championship. But Arsenal’s focus will be exclusively on beating the brakes off of Reading.
November 10th, 2007 at 3:35 pm
Personally I don’t see that if we come away without a trophy - that won’t mean that our season was a failure.
Think about how we all felt at the start. Henry gone to Barca……….the sky is falling…………we will be lucky to stay in the top 4. You get the picture.
I’m quite pleased with the performance of our team and even though I would rather see Flamini out of the starting 11, we have played well and are still in a good position to get something out of the season.
I would love to see us win the Premiership or take home either the FA Cup or CL Trophy this year, but if we fall short and still finish top 4. I would say it was more than what I expected when the season started.
We have some tough matches ahead of us and it’s not going to be easy, but maybe having youth on our side will give us the extra push we need to stay fit and continue playing as we are.
As far as Coppel and Reading go - it’s just a typical mind game being played before the match. When Reading float down to the Coke League next yeat Coppel will be luck yif he can find a job in the bar league that Rick and the rest play in.
November 10th, 2007 at 3:53 pm
As I have said several times…other teams and managers having barbs at us is a GREAT thing. Last season, Coppell would have been talking about how we have such “wonderful kids” and how we will be “world-beaters soon” OR worse arguing about our ability to hang on to fourth place.
Let them comment on.
As for Coppell and his team? We’ll beat the crap out of them.
November 10th, 2007 at 4:24 pm
Joshuad said: “However, if I’m personally involved in a competition then I’m in it to win it. If I don’t win then I will consider it a failure. I’m sure many of the players and the boss feel the same.”
I absolutely agree. In fact, I wouldn’t root for a team that didn’t have that mindset. Whether you play for Arsenal or Derby, you have to go in with the attitude of, ‘our goal is to win (the match/the title/whatever). At the professional level, that’s the point. As a fan, as opposed to a player or manager, I’m going to judge the season a little differently. Here’s a quick test: Raise your hand if you wish you were a Chelsea fan. But they won back to back league trophies, isn’t that all that matters? No, it’s not all that matters, not by a long shot.
November 10th, 2007 at 4:28 pm
I love Arsenal because they play beautiful attacking football. If we win a trophy, fine . If we come close to a trophy doing it our way and lose, fine. There is so much more to being an Arsenal supporter than just going for gold. That’s the deal for me. Coppel, Ferguson, Pardew, Blatter, Platini, Hansen, Jol, and Allardyce can all just shut the f**k up when it comes to our club. Its like these people say a sentence with Arsenal in it and they automatically get exposure. Just because British managers couch their xenophobic comments under the cloak of ” for the betterment of the national team” does not conceal the jealousy that exists.
On behalf of Arsene Wenger, let me make this perfectly clear to all those who bemoan the state of the England national team: Arsenal, are not a pair of tits on which the national team should suckle for players.
November 10th, 2007 at 4:29 pm
“Raise your hand if you wish you were a Chelsea fan. But they won back to back league trophies, isn’t that all that matters? No, it’s not all that matters, not by a long shot.”
Well said.
November 10th, 2007 at 4:32 pm
# 8. Well said indeed.
November 10th, 2007 at 6:59 pm
I was born in london in the sixties. Half my family are gooners, the other half are QPR. As a young lad I went to both grounds. I count my blessings that I chose to follow the Arse. My Hoops cousins are not enjoying there lot and have not been for some time. However they still follow their team week in week out. Thats what being a fan is. We are so lucky and fortunate to have a team with the class and management (from top to bottom) that it has. I hope we win something this year, but even if it doesn’t happen it going to be one hell of an entertaining ride and will be for some time to come I feel. Everything comes to and end eventually so lets enjoy the next decade while we can !!!!
keep it up lads
November 10th, 2007 at 7:14 pm
For me its about purpose and trajectory. Are we going up or going down or stumbling around like the majority?
Are we developing a winning team or spinning our wheels?
To me, we look like we have purpose from the top to the bottom….the board…..the management…..the squad …..the first team.
We look like we are developing something pretty special that has the right blend of qualities to be winners over an extended period of time.
And we’re doing all this with a style that most teams, big or small, can only dream about.
For me……that’s success.
Whether we win trophy x, y or z this season is important in terms of the overall development of this team and in continuing a ‘winning culture’ within the club, but it by itself does not define our success.
In saying this, I would like to see Arsenal win a trophy THIS season. It will get the monkey off their back and be a milestone in this teams development. Much like GG’s Arsernal winning the League Cup was back in 1987.
November 10th, 2007 at 8:21 pm
Great interview with Fabregas in the Sunday Times -
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/football/premier_league/arsenal/article2847802.ece
He addresses the winning issue:
There’s no point asking Fabregas how good he thinks he is. Nor Arsenal fans – it’s like asking Christians if they thought Jesus was a decent fellow. A cautionary voice amid the worship was raised by Sir Alex Ferguson who suggested Fabregas and other brilliant youngsters cannot be regarded as great players, because they have not yet got the medals.
“Yeah, he’s right,” says Fabregas. “I 100% agree with him. I can’t say I’m a great player. And I always say at Arsenal we’re a very, very good side but not a great side. When we win something together as a group we can say we’re great but, right now, we’re just a good side.
“You’ve been successful when you’ve won trophies. When you’ve won European Championships, World Cups, Premier Leagues, Champions Leagues: then you can say you’re a success. Right now I can’t say anything. I just have an FA Cup.”
November 10th, 2007 at 8:36 pm
Any season without silverware is a failure….otherwise we would be called Spurs!
November 11th, 2007 at 12:30 am
Thanks macmac123, that was a great article.
The best part for me was when Mr. Northcroft wrote, “The joy of Cesc: Inevitably it involves scoring. Goals, which used to come round for him as regularly as the seasons of the year, are now a weekly occurrence. Eleven arrived in the first 152 games Fabregas played for Arsenal; 11 more in the past 15. The run has coincided neatly with Thierry Henry’s departure and is elevating his profile to the extent he is replacing Henry not just as Arsenal’s totem but the most celebrated foreign footballer in the English game.”
This exactly sums up how exciting and pleasing it is to watch the Arsenal. The fact that our boy Cesc (polite, reserved, careful) can be more celebrated than C. Ronaldo (Brash, overconfident, cocky) & Drogba (not too much bad to say here, except who he plays for) says a bunch about who we are as a team, players & fans. We have class, dignity, pride and humility.
Which is exactly why to end a season without a trophy is “failing to reach our goals” but NOT a “failure.” As Cesc said, we are really good, but not quite great. “To win it makes us Great.” That is not the same as “to not win it makes us Failures.” We are growing, maturing, developing, and we are fun to watch. Our players are also having more fun than I ever remember seeing any athletes have.
So, if we could please have an end to this “Will we die now or in March?” attitude and start enjoying the living part of it!
November 11th, 2007 at 12:48 am
the joy and beauty which these wenger teams ( especially this one - and for once it is irrespective of their age ) stitch on the field is a pleasure to the eye… and i dont think that i will be able to love another team like this ever after… and i dont need a title in the cabinet to prove this to me…. anything in top 3 showing their consistency would be good enough !!!
November 11th, 2007 at 1:13 am
Hey, while I’m a fan, win, loose, or draw I can’t help but believe that with such a talented squad they’re not going to win something.
I have to believe that, as it what’s makes this sport so exciting - from the micro of the anticipating the next goal to the macro of possibly winning the Premiership. I have really been enjoying this season.
I’m also not that altruistic that I don’t enjoy waving my Arsenal scarf in my Liverpool supporting “brother in laws” face, singing “were #1″. For that matter, all my close friends, who follow the beautiful game, know exactly what I’m thinking when I see them and Arsenal is doing well. They probably all wish I’d wipe this silly smirk of my face, particularly those of them who support ManUre.
As for Reading - I’m confident of the outcome of this fixture for our lads.
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Very clever comment using Chel$ki Rick!
November 11th, 2007 at 12:00 pm
Anyone watched that bicycle kick strike from Tim Cahill? My world, Pele would have proud of!
November 11th, 2007 at 12:28 pm
Absolute cracker and to do it so late takes something. I was just thinking — oh well another 1-0 and then boom. James McFadden was awesome in the last 10 minutes though — more credit to him. Everton are a much better side(they are already good) with Cahill and Arteta both in there.
November 11th, 2007 at 12:52 pm
ManU cruising into first place again, albeit temporarily. Blackburn down to 10 men and down 2-0. Ronaldo a brace. I wish we could make short work of pretenders like Blackburn.
November 11th, 2007 at 1:17 pm
Here’s an article from Andy Dunn (NOW) who puts a stake through Ferguson’s petty rant against Wenger: http://notw.typepad.com/dunn/.
November 11th, 2007 at 1:40 pm
No more Bottenham. 4-0. Boy, I miss Martin Jol! ; )
November 11th, 2007 at 2:05 pm
“Coppell said: “Anything less than a trophy this year will be seen as failure.”"
Seen by whom? Him?
But, we don’t care what he thinks.
So what does he think “success” is? Winning the Carling Cup (a trophy) and finishing 5th in the league?
There was a post months ago where the reader was asked to list in order of preference the most important competitions: league, CL, FA Cup, League Cup…
That is relevant for this post, too.
I can’t imagine that silverware (except for the league trophy) would trump qualifying for the CL.
Can you imagine if we won the FA Cup and the League Cup and didn’t qualify for the CL? The joy of winning two cup finals would fade very, very quickly.
Definitions of success and failure are relative and dependent on present circumstance and length of time window.
For me, now, this season, playing our brand of flowing football, coupled with qualifying for next season’s CL, being competitive in this year’s two domestic cups, and getting out of the CL group stage (already done) is the minimum for ’success’ - anything beyond that is great (my goal for the club is winning either the CL or the league or both, but the chances of either are certainly not greater than 50:50).
Perhaps Coppell was being complimentary in his comments - he sees that our current squad is so full of quality that we should win something.
But, “should” doesn’t ever enter into the equation, because if it did, there would be no sense in playing the game on the pitch. Just take a poll of pundits and crown the league champion that way. Arsenal have won trophies they “should” have and have won trophies that they “shouldn’t” have - totally meaningless.
Let’s just get on with the athletic competitions on the field and enjoy the show.
November 11th, 2007 at 10:05 pm
Funny how often people confuse disappointment with failure. What I want is meaningful games come spring- and not meaningful for qualification purposes but rather title reasons. Not winning the league is ok- only one ever does. I think finishing 2nd and winning silverware is a flavor of success. Disappointment would be wasting our great start and not competing for the title. Disappointment would be exiting from 3 competitions in the spaces of 2 weeks (or less). Failure would be not supporting this club when we falter from the top!
Success to me is performing your best and making progress- so far this year so good- progress in CL, progress in CC, and progress in the League- definitely a successful first few months. Now let’s win at Reading, lest I begin to be disappointed…
November 12th, 2007 at 9:45 am
There was a time when winning meant everything. But since Arsene Wenger it’s become less important to me . Football is entertainment - and when I pay to watch Arsenal - on either TV, or less often, live - I get entertained.
When you go to watch a live band you’re not thinking about them winning an award or being “band of the season”, you’re paying money to be entertained. The same goes for football, and more should be done to entertain people. That’s why I find certain teams like Bolton abominable, and Chelsea for that matter. They have the finances to buy the world’s most attractive flair players - but Mourinho created football killers. Glad to see the back of him.
So yeah, trophies are the icing on the cake - but definitely not the be-all and end-all.