It’s a nice problem to have, but also a troubling one. Arsenal’s outstanding youngsters have made a quantum leap forward this season and there’s certainly a lot more to come.
But in all honesty, there’s probably too many of them. Amidst minor rumbles of discontent from the likes of Diarra, Diaby, Bendtner and pre-season Flamini, I just can’t see them all sticking around for another year or two - so who’s likely to stay and who’s likely to go and who should we keep long-term? For the purposes of this article, I have limited the list to players aged 23 and under:
Lukasz Fabianski - everyone says he has great potential, but it’s hard to tell with goalkeepers. Remember Alex Manninger?
Stay or go?
STAY - will have to wait and see, will certainly get his opportunity with big question marks over Lehmann’s future.
Abou Diaby - press reports in the paper today suggest that he’s restless on the bench. With Wenger playing him out of position in virtually every game will we ever see the best of this talent? Fabregas position is doubtless where Diaby is most comfortable.
Stay or go?
GO: Would love to see him stay but I don’t see it happening, he will never grow into the player he could be sitting on the bench. Would want £5m for him though.
Lassana Diarra - has already been moaning about not getting enough playing time. Wenger has made a big effort to accommodate him lately, including him on the bench alongside Gilberto - do we really need two defensive midfielders on the bench?
Stay or go?
STAY: Has already shown how good he is in the handful of games he has played, long-term I see him ousting Flamini.
Cesc Fabregas.
Stay or go?
Duh!
Phillipe Senderos - has no composure, still makes the same elementary mistakes as he did when he first joined the club. He’s proved to be a barely adequate stand in for Toure and Gallas - might come good in 5 years, but is it worth the wait?
Stay or go?
GO - for his own sake it’s probably best he leaves.
Denilson - has improved a little this year, but seems to be stuck between not being as industrious as Flamini nor as creative as Fabregas. Decent player though, you cannot underestimate his potential at such a young age.
Stay or go?
STAY: Seems happy enough on the bench, good squad player who will probably improve as he is always played in his natural position, unlike Diaby.
Mathieu Flamini - still only 23. Has made great strides this season, which just goes to show that if you give some players a run in their favourite position they are often better than you think.
Stay or go?
STAY: last year I would have said go, but he’s doubtless a decent squad player at the very least. He’s better than Parlour was.
Alexandre Song - a bit out of order the way the fans took all their frustrations out on him last season. He came through it and has performed well as centre-back this season, which shows great mental strength.
Stay or go?
GO: I think Wenger will stick with Senderos (unfortunately) and Djourou, making Song a 5th choice centre back. Hence, no long-term future really.
Johan Djourou - not playing hugely impressively at Birmingham, but then with all those crap players around him it’s always going to be difficult for a 20 year old to be consistent or at least appear consistent.
Stay or go?
STAY: worth keeping as this experience will serve him well and he’s better than Senderos.
Gael Clichy -
Stay or go?
STAY
Emmanuel Adebayor -
Stay or go?
STAY
Nicklas Bendtner - has already complained to the media about lack of games, and is likely to do so again in the future - that’s his character.
Stay or go?
GO - just can’t see him breaking into the team full time. Has good potential but certainly doesn’t have world class attributes, I feel he is sometimes too cumbersome to fit into Arsenal’s fluid attacking style.
Emmanuel Eboue - not a great right back and his pathetic play-acting, although lessened, is still evident. Has not fitted in to the right winger role very well, but it was worth a try.
Stay or go?
GO - probably. Diarra could do a better job in the same position - who knows? Eboue is wonderfully athletic, but lacks intelligence and finesse. It’s a borderline decision, but long-term I don’t see a place for him.
Armand Traore - hardly ever gets a game, but then he is only 18. With Clichy ahead of him he has a real battle on his hands to make the left-back position his own.
Stay or go?
STAY - Too much potential to lose him. Playing left-midfield, ala Eboue, could be an option at some point in the future - has much better attacking instincts.
Justin Hoyte - now Sagna’s in the team his hopes of winning a first team place are virtually non-existant. Must admit he did ok last season, but you always feel he’s struggling to keep his game together.
Stay or go?
GO - don’t need him as back up anymore.
Theo Walcott - one minute he plays like a superstar, the next like your little doggy in the park. At 18 years of age consistency is unlikely to arrive soon. He has an awful lot to learn. Like most English players, his weak mental strengths mean that he doesn’t make the most of his technical ability.
Stay or go?
STAY - Wenger will get the best out of him, eventually.
So to recap, the young players I don’t see having a future at Arsenal are: Diaby, Senderos, Song, Bendtner, Eboue and Hoyte. What do you think?
47 Responses to “What future these kids?”
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November 14th, 2007 at 1:22 pm
i don’t agree with the stay or go list you chosen, as it seems like only based on your own taste. the one u don’t like, you put them in the “go” list. I am sure soon many ppl here would has one of their own “go” list for the players they just simply don’t like their faces.
But i agree with the primiary issue here you brought up - yes, i think some of the players,however talented they are, may leave in the near future.
it’s a situation almost look inevitable. These young players need to play, and many of them are at an age they need to play in order to further their career. While I would love to keep all of them, but i don’t really like to see a SWP figure in our club just contend to sit on the bench and collecting their pay check.
From the manager’s point of view, there are little things he could do neither. He can’t just play them for the sake of it. At the end of the day, it’s how the TEAM does matter. A rotation policy generates inconsistency. i can understand AW would want to avoid it as best as he could.
and when the team is doing well, he can’t just take off anyone and say “I need to give who and who a chance, so next game u r off the starting lineup”.
so yes, can see a few are heading towards the exit door.
November 14th, 2007 at 1:45 pm
Andez, of course it is his own taste. It’s called an opinion ;^)
I probably agree with every player on your go and stay list, and of your list the player I am most torn over his Bendtner. He doesn’t seem to pose a real goal threat or possess quite enough mobility, but I like the simple style he has. Even against Reading he chested down a long ball and just layed it off to Fabregas without fuss. I trust his touch more than Adebayor.
I would add Denilson to the go list. He has a decent passing range but he is unambitious and barely ever runs past the forwards like Fabregas does. This would be okay if he was a stud defensively, but he is rather lazy and lethargic when it comes to closing down as well. At times I like Denilson on the wings. Thought he was quite good there against Prague in qualifying and can pass it quick and decisively to the likes of Hleb and Rosicky; if they’re playing central. However Wenger doesn’t seem to really see his future there so I would send him packing.
I’d rather keep Diaby than Denilson. As infuriating as Diaby can be at times, he does carry the ball rather well and can re-invigorate our play, like he did against Portsmouth. I would persist with him for a bit longer though he probably won’t make it long term.
November 14th, 2007 at 2:06 pm
Andez, how would you expect him to rate players? He can only go by what he sees.
For the most part, I agree with your list. The only exception is Eboue. I don’t think he’s been that great as a midfielder, but he provides cover for Sagna if he needs a break or gets injured.
Like Mazza, I am also torn about Bendtner. I like his game - I think it provides a different aspect to the Arsenal attack, but if he doesn’t sit down and shut up he will have to go. Like many other young players who have left the team, he could be part of something great if he would show a little patience.
November 14th, 2007 at 2:07 pm
Mazza, like i said, soon most ppl will have their own “go” list! and knew u would add Denilson into ur own!! : )
personally i have no favourite or dislike players, so i go for the (1) first team opportunity they are likely to get in the future. and (2) the need of our team.
i think Song, Senderos and Djourou should all stay. as we do need defensive cover. They are not the best around, but the best around may not want to sit on the bench. so i will settle for them. plus the fact our defence seems to be most vulunerable in terms of injury bugs, so they would have their 1st team chances.
Denilson should stay as well. as he’s the natural backup for Fabregas. at least i believe AW sees him to be, so he will have his chances as well.
i m very high on Bendtner. And we really shouldn’t judge him based on a few appearances. we can’t tell nothing from those games. the important thing is he got all the basic stuffs in him - control (for a big man), pace (for a big man), header, shooting technic, and sheer aggressiveness. To me frankly, I’d rather keep him than Eduardo. Eduardo surely is a quality player, but Bendtner is tailor-made for the Premiership.
the only player i conceded perhaps don’t really have a future at Arsenal is Diaby.
I really love this guy’s skills, he’s strong, and when he starts that charging run, it reminds me a lot of Vieira.
Problem is this guy is a defensive liability. not only he doesn’t do the defensive job well, he doesn’t seem to have that mentality nor willingness to actually go out and do it.
without a doubt his nautral position is central midfield. but because of his defensive weakness, AW could only either play him wide or behind the frontman. None is his best position and he really struggled there.
with so many CM in our roster, i just can’t see how he’s going to get his chance there. and if he keeps playing out of position, that’s not being efficient from both the club and his own point of view. so i feel that his numbers may be up.
November 14th, 2007 at 2:33 pm
Yeah, I said at the start of the season Diaby and Denilson didn’t have a future at Arsenal and the way it is panning out so far backs up that claim. I think Wenger was desperately dissapointed with Denilson in Prague. In the first half conditions were fine but he hid a little bit. Think it will one of those diplomatic departures, with Wenger blowing smoke up is arse as he leaves for pastures new.
Diarra could possible play the Fabregas role. I think he would do it alot better than Denilson. Alot of Chelsea fans thought he was too attacking to be Makelele’s replacement and went forward too much so that bodes well in that sense but not too well in the sense of him being defensive back-up to Flamini.
Eduardo is a strange case. He seems like an odd individual and I wonder whether he is fitting into the dressing room or not. Will be interesting to see how Wenger handles him.
November 14th, 2007 at 2:38 pm
You’d have to like Wenger’s chances of making the right call on any/all of these kids, don’t you?
He hasn’t been wrong too often on those that left the Arsenal. (or that he let go).
Its kinda scary… he’s got a crystal ball.
I like Diaby. He does remind me of Paddy. And without regular playing time, its hard to judge what these kids can/will do. But if you see them every day in practice & training, I’d think you’d have a better idea.
Not an easy job making the decision on many of them. But talent usually rises, I like Eboue talent-wise as well. And Flamini has become one of my favorites for his grit and determination. He pops in goals in key situations as well.
November 14th, 2007 at 2:50 pm
It’s not really anything to do with who I like or dislike. I actually really like Diaby - a lot. I just don’t see how he is going to significantly improve when Fabregas is playing in Diaby’s favoured position. Wenger is shifting Diaby left midfield and up front, but it’s obvious he’s not suited to those positions. Will he spend his entire career sitting on the bench behind Fabregas? No. So my forecast is that he will leave - doesn’t mean I want him to.
Same for Bendtner, Wenger doesn’t even trust him enough to start the game up front against Reading - he would rather play 4-5-1. What future does he really have? Again, this is a player I like.
Even Flamini, who if you’ve read my posts I have previously thought should leave the club, I have changed my mind about and said “stay” - although I still think Diarra would be a better choice.
Eboue, I don’t really know. I just feel he will be let go in a year or two. Diarra can cover at right back, and Eboue is not really progressing in midfield. If a decent bid comes in Wenger might accept as the squad is a bit full.
So yeah, of course it’s a personal opinion - but that also encompasses a prediction about whether they are likely to stay or not.
November 14th, 2007 at 2:51 pm
as DannyT pointed out - it’s a good problem to have nonetheless. but in 2 or 3 years’ time we probably would have even a bigger problem! with another group of even younger talents coming up - Traore, Merida, Barazite, Nordtveit, Vela the likes…… now we can understand why Fergie called for a rule change!
i do feel Ferguson starts to really worry about the Gunners, particular the near future. afterall, he can spend 30 mil to buy yet another English talent, while at the same time AW will spend 30 mil to buy half a team of talent. at this rate, United is going to get overrun sooner or later.
i read from a statistic, that Man U Vs Arsenal clash, the cost of the starting lineup from both team was 150 mil (Man U) Vs 30 mil (Arsenal).
so guess we can’t blame Fergie for thinking - if we can’t beat them, let’s alter the rule to make sure we do.
November 14th, 2007 at 3:32 pm
Interesting discussion thread with some good posts…
I also like Diaby very much and would like to see him flourish but agree that it will be difficult for him unless Wenger transforms him to a different position; left winger perhaps, but save for a cracker of a goal against Derby (and generally a solid performance during that game), he has been unconvincing. I would like to keep him though because injuries will always come and he can slot in….
Flamini has been sort of a revelation this season; he has been a machine and my hat’s off to him. I didn’t really rate him last year, but he has clearly taken his chance well and is keeping the Brazilian national team captain on the bench!!!!
I agree that Eboue will be sold in a year or two.
Bendtner is another one I like and would like for him to get chances regularly so he can show us what he really can (or can’t do)….getting the chance will be tough, barring a long term injury to Ade.
Andez #8: I saw the team cost (Man U vs. Arsenal) as well and thought it very interesting.
Looks like the berbatov to ManU talk isn’t going to go away….he would be an incredible signing….
November 14th, 2007 at 3:43 pm
Gerrard:
“If something isn’t done, there will be more and more foreigners and they will take over and that is worrying.
“I think there’s a concern that talent will eventually stop coming through if foreigners do take over our league.
“We are proud to say that we have one of the best leagues in the world but the most important thing is that have one of best national teams as well.”
I used to think he was a decent fellow…but apparently he is just as thick as all the rest of em.
After failing to qualify…he is now talking about “the foreigners running the league”. Such an idiot.
Arsenal is being set up to take the blame for Englands non-qualification this weekend.
November 14th, 2007 at 3:45 pm
i agree with the go and stay list in the article….though I hope hoyte and song stay on - if they are that ambitionless.
i hope eduardo is not going the “baptista” route!
November 14th, 2007 at 4:03 pm
I just don’t know what had England failed to qualify for Euro to do with a French manager who’s managing Arsenal? What about those PLAYERS who actually played in those qualifciation matches? Weren’t they supposed to be “world class”? Well, they sure hell draw a world-class wage though.
Anyone but themselves to blame. God bless them.
November 14th, 2007 at 4:36 pm
Diaby is not good enough and he’s talking trash about leaving like he is. He’s a central midfielder that has poor vision, he’s a poor passer, and he’s a poor tackler. You must be able to do those things to be a good central midfield player. While explosive, he doesn’t fit the Arsenal mold. In truth, neither does van Persie but he makes up for it by being absolutely brilliant.
Senderos is too slow to be a defender for Arsenal. Our entire style of play demands he have more pace. Wenger is a big fan of his though. We’ll have to wait and see how that works out.
Song could be a late bloomer. He can be our jack of all trades. He needs more games though and he’ll have to want to stay. Wenger will want to keep Song but someone will bid for him and, for the progress of the player, Wenger will let him leave.
Bendtner’s only nineteen and his best days are ahead of him. He’s destined for success but I don’t know if it will be at Arsenal. He’s very good but will never be as dynamic as Adebayor.
Eboue won’t go anywhere and won’t want to. He’ll always be on the team sheet and will play a lot of soccer for Arsenal; enough where he won’t feel the need to leave.
Hoyte believes if he’s patient enough he’ll get a run in the team. But it will never happen. If you look at Bentley, he knew he was behind Freddie and Bobby but when Hleb came in Bentley knew his time was up. I think Theo helps keep him grounded and he has hope but we’ll have to have an injury crisis for Hoyte to get close to the first team. He needs to leave.
Denilson, while he’s fundamentally solid, he doesn’t appear to have great potential in attack or defense. He uses the ball with intelligence and proved he has a descent shot but no cutting edge. We’ve simply got to wait on him as he’s still so young.
A very significant point Andez made is that we have guys in the reserves that will be coming into consideration very soon. It’s not going to get any easier to play for this team.
November 14th, 2007 at 5:21 pm
The EPL is only as successful as it is because of it’s fantastic foreign players. The reason they go to England is because they get paid a lot more money for their skills there. You take away the boat loads of money then the foreign players go away and you’ve got a Premier league that looks an awful lot like the Championship. Who’s going to tune in to watch that shit?
There’s no class in that league. The primary focus seem to be run hard and kick harder. It seems to be the primary thing they’re teaching the kids as it’s the only thing they do well. Remember all the hype last year behind David Nugent? If he were good enough then the EPL wouldn’t be worth watching. Look at all the English players that Derby has and their quality. Take the foreigners Craig Gordon, Dwight Yorke, and Kenwyne Jones out of Sunderland and guess how good they are.
Get rid of the foreigners, please.
November 14th, 2007 at 5:32 pm
of this whole thing, the smartest guy may turn out to be Steve Bruce. AW is very much a loner among the EPL managers, don’t think he has too many friends, in particular among the UK-based managers. somehow he does keep a good relationship with Bruce.
I read an interesting piece a while ago. Apart from the fact the 3 Arsenal loanees had contributed significantly towards Birmingham’s promition season. There was a midfielder AW was interested (think it’s Nafti), but felt that Arsenal has had enough of midfielder, so he gave Bruce a rang and recommended the guy to him. Bruce gave the guy a trial and eventually signed him. Now with a friend like that, who needs scouts!
i won’t be surprised should AW decide to sell someone in the future, Steve Bruce’s team (whichever it is) may be among the first to be on the line. Pardew’s the last, of course. He’s too busy checking on the players’ passports anyway.
November 14th, 2007 at 5:34 pm
Overall it is a nice quandary to be in. I think a conservative estimate for what Danny T’s list would fetch on the transfer market is 30 million pounds. That would probably last AW the length of his contract.
As it is all personal preference based on our evaluation, my choices to go would be mostly based on lack of versatility:
Hoyte: Not sure how he fits in to all the player quotas. But he is strictly a right back. And obviously, he won’t be displacing Sagna or (second choices Eboue & Diarra)
Diaby: I agree that Diaby looks out of place when he is used out wide. That being said, he is not displacing Fabregas, Flamini, Diarra, etc in the center. Sometimes, I don’t think he fits in with the Arsenal way either. He requires lots of touches when he gets the ball, rarely playing one and two touch.
Senderos: Not good enough. A position I still think we need to buy in.
Song: I admire him giving it a go at center back. But it is not going to be a long term fit for him. He played well in his spell with Charlton. I think they would love to buy him if they made it back up.
Bendtner: I have thought he was too lumbering with a poor touch since I saw him in preseason. I think the fact that we were a bit hungry for a goal poacher after last year and everyone wanted a striker to emerge after the sale of Henry tinted everyone’s glasses with him. If Inter or someone else want him for 6-8 million, I would sell immediately.
My reasoning on the ones who would stay.
Fabianski: He will get a chance. After Jens leaves in January he will be second choice. And next year, he will have every right to fight for number 1.
Diarra: He is playing consistently for France. He will get his chance with Arsenal and run with it. He also has some versatility with his abilities as right back
Flamini: Playing out of his mind right now. I hope he keeps it up. Even if he doesn’t, he plays several positions well enough to always be useful.
Djourou: Stays for the sake of some numbers at the back
Eboue: I still think people on this site are a bit harsh on him. He can be an excellent second choice right back and right midfielder. He gives us something very different to Hleb and Rosicky, which can be useful against particular opponents. I also don’t see anyone coming up to displace him in either of those roles.
Walcott: Too young to know yet. I think he will get better and better though.
Traore: He has always looked good when he plays. He can play left back or midfield. And you never know if Clichy’s metatarsal will hold up. It is an injury that can come back easily.
November 14th, 2007 at 5:34 pm
Glad you posed this question DannyT. I was thinking about it today when i read the news that Diaby is unhappy. AW has some tough calls to make on some of these guys. There is a silver lining to it though. For clubs like Chelsea and ManU and Liverpool, when they have been selling players recently, they are selling for far less than they paid. All of the Arsenal players would go at a nice profit.
November 14th, 2007 at 5:42 pm
If Platini and Blatter are so worried about national identity they should concentrate on the horrific violence in Italian football and the hideous racism still widespread, especially in Eastern Europe and to some extent Spain and Italy too.
Instead all they care about is money. This has everything to do with International football going down the pan - with two crappy tournaments in succession. They want to enhance International football by watering down the domestic leagues.
Fortunately, European law will never allow it. Some of Platini’s comments about young players staying at their local club until 21 is ridiculous. What if the player wants to leave the club, are they saying he can’t? Also, between 16 and 21 is where they learn a lot about the game, if they are at a poor club with poor manager and bad training facilities their talent is being wasted. This is depriving the sport of potentially brilliant players.
I do agree though that more should be done to help the clubs who dig up these jewells, perhaps they should be given bigger compensation, which would significantly increase if the the players bought go on to win trophies or play consistently at the top level. That would be far more sensible an approach.
November 14th, 2007 at 5:53 pm
As an opening comment I think Wenger purposefully overstocks the shelves with these younger players.
He knows that it is going to put the acid on them. He knows some will get grumpy and go. He knows some will fail to live up to expectation and some will surpise. He’s playing a numbers game. Buy enough young quality and an acceptable number will deliver.
The list is well reasoned and whilst it reflects Dannys opinion it isn’t loopy.
Bendtner is the major egg-on-face risk for Wenger. If he leaves and in 2 years time looks like Marco van Basten that wouldn’t be a good outcome.
He will struggle to wait - it’s not in his DNA. But he simply hasn’t had enough game time to show what he can do. He’s still really young and needs to learn to lead the line. But that requires games. This is the big one for Wenger. Don’t be surprised to see Wenger start to give him more game time before transfer windows. In a way Wenger has to play with Bendtners mind and give him enough games to dampen his angst.
November 14th, 2007 at 6:07 pm
Very interesting topic,
My choices to go
Senderoos; Too slow, lack of positional awarenes and technical ability, albeit good in the air and very agressive. However, at the end of the day he is not skillful enough to play the arsenal away. His range is very limited as he cannot be used in another position, which is a requirement in the Total Football Arsenal is playing
Hoyte: Love his him attitude, but he’s surplus material, too many players are ahead of him. If someone offers good money for him, say 2 million pounds, I say sell him.
Adebayor. This guy is a workhorse, strong, fast, puts himself in position and has the ability to beat his man. However, I think he has very poor vision and his shooting technique is piss poor. He misses way too many chances for his own good. The point is, he is a striker and is required to scoregoals. I dont see him scoring more than 15 goals a season. Arsenal does not necessarily need a workhorse for a striker, that is more suited for defensive midfielders. Arsenal needs a poacher, someone who just scores goals by any means necessary, and I dont think Adebayor will become that player. Someone will be willing to pay beaucoup money for Adebayor and I say Arsene should take it.
Bendtner - Strong, confident, however lacking in technique. Although very confident, I dont think he’s good as he thinks he is. He is still 3 years away and I dont think he is patient enough to wait for his time. Like Adebayor, someone will be willing to pay big money for him and Arsene should take that money and buy 4 players that are individually better than Bendtner, just like he did with Anelka.
November 14th, 2007 at 6:15 pm
I hate the wording Platini uses when he said a 16 year old who doesn’t make it will go home “destoyed”. Okay, the lad might be a bit pissed off but I hardly think he will be suicidal. Give him a week and he probably get another club. Even Wenger said in pre-season that it would “kill” his youngers if he brought in an experienced player. Not quite Arsene. Again, any young player worth their salt would take on the challenge. Even now I would take one experienced class midfielder, and swap him for about three or four of our youngsters. We have too many maybe’s on our bench and in the squad in general.
November 14th, 2007 at 6:39 pm
All this talk of player quotas is a combination of two things. One being that Platini is mental. He was always a poor choice for UEFA president. If he had not been the player he was, he would not be in this position. Two, preemptive excuses for England not making it to Euro 08. One would have hoped that if England did not qualify, it would have forced people to look at the systemic problems England has in developing skilled players, instead of making jingoistic excuses.
My former college coach Bob Jenkins, who is now the Director of Coaching Education and Youth Development for the US Soccer Federation has written at length of the need for youth coaches in the US to start looking at more South American models as opposed to British models for youth coaches. He believes that too much youth coaching in Britain is based on tactics and positioning, rather than individual skill development. I bring this up because it sounds exactly the same as what Arsene Wenger is constantly preaching too all levels of Arsenal. So perhaps some of these ignorant people need to look at Arsene Wenger as the answer and not the problem.
November 14th, 2007 at 6:39 pm
One of the fascinating aspects is to watch this team evolve, and to see who appears to gain Arsene’s favor as a starter — few outsiders would have predicted that Hleb would be as central as he has become, or that Flamini would depose Gilberto. But with young developing players, some reach their potential sooner than others, and some never do. And with nine games in December, and the ANC in the new year, there will be plenty of opportunities for more exposure for everyone, so it all seems a little premature. I keep expecting Senderos to leave, but Wenger apparently disagrees. He didn’t get Diarra at that late date just to let him go soon.
Bendtner — shows promise, and he’s so big; the question is whether he has the patience to bring it all forward. He may force Arsene to get rid of him.
Adebayor — the most directly disruptive offensive force on the team — think Drogba, but faster, not yet as skilled, but with six years time to exceed it. Ade may not yet be ready to dominate like DD, but it would be ridiculous to let him go for any amount of money.
Eboue — he’s a mystery to me, but he’s getting good ratings for his work this year, his first at his new position. Doubt he’ll be let go. Unless AW can get Becks on loan, no one on the team will outdo him in ability to put the long ball effectively into the box for tall on-coming forwards.
All the under 20s — too young to give up on, unless they are party animals, in which case they will be gone.
November 14th, 2007 at 7:16 pm
Who will stay and who will go?
A very difficult question to answer. Who will be third-choice centre-back in the long run? Senderos, Hoyte, Djourou or Song. Not a lot between them. Diaby or Denilson to stay? Again, hard to choose. I think that it will not come down to playing ability. For those not seen as first-choice, Wenger will see whether they are prepared to battle for their place. Flamini stayed this summer because he was convinced or convinced Wenger that he should fight for a place in the first-team. That is a mental attribute, hard to judge as a fan. Sometimes body language or newspaper quotes can tell us something but often they are misleading.
For what it’s worth, it is just as likely that Toure, Gallas and Rosicky will leave if Wenger believes their time has come and gone. Every summer, Wenger must judge the hunger of the players to improve and to win things. Those found wanting - Cole, Pennant and Bentley being prime examples of success going to their heads - will be let go. If we win the big prize this year, there will be those who are satisified with that and they will be let go to be replaced by those who feel they have something to prove. If we don’t win the big prize, there will be those who are found wanting and they will be let go.
Like everyone else I have my favourites and those I want to see depart e.g. I am yet to be convinced by Diaby and Djourou has struggled on loan. At the same time, we need a deep squad and those who are prepared to stay and be back-up (Hoyte and Song?) will be kept even if they are not first-team material.
Finally, don’t forget, some of the youngsters (Diaby, Flamini) do not qualify as home-grown under UEFA rules while others (Denilson, Song) do. This may also have a bearing on Wenger’s decisions.
November 14th, 2007 at 7:17 pm
I think DannyT brought up an excellent point up there. In the recent few years, Italian football has been a disgrace to the beautiful game. Tell us what is more urgency? The state of Italian football or England national team’s fortune?
If Blatter and Platini the likes feel it’s the Series A’s own business, then why are they sticking their noses into English football?
Platini, in particular, who had his golden years plying the trade with Juventus. Shouldn’t he be more concerned that once TOP league of the world - Series A, now starting to turn into a laughing stock?
u got clubs fixing games there (i doubt it has stopped) and people dying there because of crowd trouble. And the FIFA and UEFA presidents worry more about how the lack of home growth talents kill the national teams?
What nationa teams anyway? Apart from England, I don’t see any other natoinal team get affected by it.
November 14th, 2007 at 8:17 pm
Precisely, everything is arse over tit in UEFA as usual.
On the subject of Adebayor, I don’t see how anyone can say get rid. Take Reading for example, scored 1, had 1 disallowed (wrongly), hit the post, was instrumental in the third goal. The thing is that the guy never gives up and never allows a miss to affect his confidence - this is an utterly crucial attribute for a striker to have. And he’s only 23, I think there is room for considerable improvement a lot.
15-20 goals a season is fine from him, because he brings a lot of good things to the team - not just goals. He does hold the ball up well and he is a defenders nightmare at times, it’s this sort of distraction that allows other players to take advantage. I know he can be frustrating at times, you could say he was on Monday night, but as long as he is doing that sort of damage who the hell cares - and if we’re honest he is not a player who is quiet when he’s having an off day - he is not Aliadiere or Reyes or Rosicky, who you sometimes forget they are on the pitch. Adebayor always shows himself.
He really needs a world class finisher along side him - that could be Van Persie or eventually Eduardo.
November 14th, 2007 at 8:28 pm
Agree with Groovehouse on Adebayor’s finishing. He’s feast or famine in front of goal.
But clearly Wenger bought Eduardo to slot alongside him in the classic poacher role, scooping up the scraps and cutbacks. Eduardo is still adjusting. Wenger says it takes at least 6 months to settle. So let’s wait an see. Hleb basically took 2 years to hit his stride, as did VanP.
Speaking generally about these young guys’ potential, Wenger has a very diplomatic public stance about them - he believes in all of them. Obviously his track record over the years is not perfect. He’s had plenty of bulbs who didn’t blossom, but not many who moved elsewhere and then blossomed. We all knew Bentley was good - that chip on his debut was something else - but it’s how you slot into the team that ultimately matters, even more so in the post-Titi era.
Odds on, a few of this current crop will not truly flourish. I still can’t see Wenger’s faith in Song’s potential. Eboue has to mature more than anything else. No one doubts his athleticism.
Bendtner is either a rough diamond who can be polished, or the Nordic Duncan Ferguson in waiting!
Fergie always goes on about mental toughness being the really vital component to go with the talent. The likes of Cesc, Flamini, Gallas, Toure, Clichy, Sagna have it. But Theo, Eduardo, Denilson - not yet.
November 14th, 2007 at 10:04 pm
i think how players especially new and young ones get along with crucial teammates plays a big part in their adjusting and ability to take a place in the team.
for example, adebayor’s and flamini’s place on the team is due at least in small part - to their very good relationship with fabregas, hleb, rosicky and toure. flamini for example has an awesome relationship with each of this four. same with adebayor. flamini in particular gets on extremely well with fabregas outside the pitch…so wenger looking on will probably see no reason dropping flamini off the team - especially when he is not doing that badly. this factor helps one even more when the player in question is not such a great player in the first place (look at gerrard and barry in the england team for example).
i think eduardo’s struggle to settle might come in part to him being a reserved person and not mixing well with the crucial players. and he might have made a bit of a faux pas when he decided that after scoring in the CL against seville - that he would go to the bench and celebrate with his brazillian hommies. the problem with that is that gilberto is now bench material and denilson is often in the stands - both are not so significant in the new arsenal. he seems to have learnt and corrected this the next tiem he scored. diaby also did something similar. bypassing fabregas and hleb when celebrating. faux pas in my opinion.
also see what happened to reyes - with no friends…even though he had talent.
ofcourse if you are very good, this whole theory becomes less redundant - like with RvP for example. he scored a number of crucial goals - meaning that other players needed to get along with him (not the other way round) since they can see his obvious quality. theo being english probably bypasses this - as the crowd chant his name frequently he has the aura of being a rarity - an english player.
does this “theory” account for lehmann and gilberto? probably does. these two are insular folks by personality. and all their “friends” are no longer at the club…that makes it a bit easier for them to be dropped.
conclusion to my random ramblings:
if christophe dugarry made an international career by being good chums with zidane and running his socks off on the pitch, you guys shouldnt be surprised adebayor and flamini are benefiting from it as well.
November 14th, 2007 at 10:07 pm
correction: obviously if you are good, this whole theory becomes redundant … not less redundant. lol
November 14th, 2007 at 10:16 pm
Adebayor, if he can convert like 45% of his chances will be the top scorer every season. Everybody says his first touch is his problem, but I think his release is the major issue. This guy gets himself into incredible positions, but if only he could use more finesse and less power. That said, Denilson, I think will only get better with time. People forget this season will be his first full season with Arsenal ( he was bought January of 2007). Fabregas have been with the team since 2003, and Diaby since spring of 2006.
November 14th, 2007 at 10:20 pm
Wow, I have a lot to say.
1: Whatever happens, whoever goes, we make a profit on the players. That’s what makes a head-scratching signing like Eduardo okay. We recoup that with a sell-off of, say, Bendtner or Eboue (not that I think they should be sold!!!!)
2. Bendtner Walcott & Diarra are high quality players that need blooding. Each (in my opinion) are a little too quick on the ball, a little too hesitant about the next play, a little too pressing on the pitch. The thing they have in common: extreme youth. These guys, with others, demolished a full Newcastle side in the Carling Cup. And got to play a semi-meaningful CL game in which they clinched advancement. Yes, they played poorly, but I said in a previous post, they were playing a team in Eastern Europe, on the road, after we had embarassed them, in terrible weather. And we got the point. Nuff said.
3. Shocker: van Persie goes soon. We have money, he’s injury prone, Eduardo is lurking, I think he goes after this season. I love him when he’s on, but he’s absent way too often.
4. I think we could make a play for Kaka, he’s got the pedigree, the quickness, would fit in perfectly. Kaka and Fabregas, on the same pitch… salivating. Is this wishful thinking????????
Anyway, I don’t think Kaka will come to the Emirates, but everything else I think could be valid.
November 14th, 2007 at 10:31 pm
I think Flamini is closest to Rosicky off the pitch, and Hleb and Fabregas are best buddies as well.
Good point about relationships though. I’ve often thought Ljungberg was a bit of an outcast in the dressing room last year. He and Van Persie did not get on, and I don’t think Ljungberg liked the style of Hleb and Rosicky. Both Henry and Ljungberg looked like players from another era last season.
November 14th, 2007 at 11:01 pm
@ 31: van persie is not has injury prone as rosicky and eduardo is not “lurking”. he is currently struggling to make the bench. so i dont really see where u are coming from.
kaka and fabregas cant play in the same team. both are playmakers for whom the entire team must revolve round … there cant be two playmakers in a team. plus fabregas can only play central and kaka is not that effective on the wings….and would definitely not come to arsenal to play there. except he wants comes in to play upfront.
but most importantly wenger wont buy a name player. he hasnt in 10 years so why will he start now. wenger will not buy an overwhelming ego in there after just getting rid of henry. before u know it kaka will be demanding that wenger buys “other top players” LOL.
so forget it, kaka or ronaldinho or anybody who could possibly b-tch about getting in new players wont be bought.
November 14th, 2007 at 11:05 pm
With regard to the Italian violence.
Somebody outside of Italian authorities has to exert very punitive measures. The Italians won’t because they can’t.
There is a systemic problem in Italy - the clash of young thugs with authority figures - police, etc. So, it is a problem with respecting Italian authorities.
But why would anybody in Italy respect their own authoritiy figures? What have their authority figuries done to earn respect? Corruption is rampant, politicians publically swear at each other in a government proceeding, police have been quite brutal - it goes on and on and on.
Bottom line - the Italian authorities are incapable of doing anything - partly because they don’t have the intrinsic fortitude to do so, and partly because what ever they will do will be full of loopholes when the money starts to talk.
So, yes, FIFA/UEFA should do something, but they have shown lack of a backbone, too. For chrissake, AC Milan won the Champions League in a year when arguably they should not have been allowed to even participate in the tournament.
In the end, the asylum is going to have to fix its own problem.
And, yes, I realize that it is only a handful that make Italy look like a penal colony.
November 14th, 2007 at 11:09 pm
I like the stay-or-go post. Provides lots of meat to chew on.
But, it’s like when you pull your money out of what you think is a bad investment for the future - you have to find a better investment. You sell your stock - now what are you going to do with your cash?
Sometimes that is not so easy to figure out.
November 15th, 2007 at 12:18 am
you buy new stock. am pretty sure arsenal scouts are husstling their way around the world watching countless matches.
November 15th, 2007 at 12:25 am
u know its funny how few people are looking for the “new vieira” these days. a big strong all action CM type is seen only in the likes of sunderland and fulham these days. players like diaby and sissoko who are the closest to that model, and they wont start any important matches soon.
players like vieira might allow u to dominate an english style league (of which the EPL is fast moving from) but they would be detrimental to european dreams. and the top 4 are so entrenched in their CL positions that they dont have to worry too much about dominating in the league ( or at least falling off from CL spots).
November 15th, 2007 at 12:27 am
has anyone else noticed that the top 3 now qualify directly for the group stages??
hopefully we can finish at least 3rd so that we can stop these pointless trips to east europe in august.
November 15th, 2007 at 1:05 am
On the lack of English players at Arsenal- The Gerrards and Fergies of the world would have you believe that you need your homegrown players coming from a good home league, but look at Brazil and Argentina. The last time I looked, only four players on the Argentine national team actually play in Argentina. I think it is even worse for Brazil. If you are good enough, you will find a place to play.
I guess it is of no use sending any of our young players out on loan so they can get playing time. Has any player during the Wenger years gone out on loan and come back to play an important role in the first team? I can’t think of one.
If I was a young Arsenal player, I would be very cautious about leaving the team because of lack of playing time. Those that do don’t have the greatest track record.
November 15th, 2007 at 2:05 am
@ scjonathan: actually ashley cole went on loan. but at the time he went on loan he was actually a striker lol.
November 15th, 2007 at 2:10 am
I think Diaby is phenomenally talented and a perfect fit for the Arsenal style of footie - I’d like to not only see him stay but play a lot more. Replace Flamini with him. Flamini can produce from time to time but I’ve never been able to shake off the feeling that Flamini’s just not that great of a footballer; or at least not good enough to be an Arsenal midfield starter.
November 15th, 2007 at 2:27 am
Very good post.
I won’t put my personal list but try to guess what Wenger will be thinking. From that perspective, I think only two players are in danger of losing out.
Hoyte: Not a very talented footballer and has too many who can perform the RB role better than him - Sagna, Eboue, Diarra and Flamini. The only reason I see him staying is because we need to fill the homegrown quota
Diaby: A decently talented player but not played in his favoured position. Elsewhere, he just can’t perform well enough. I said sometime back that Wenger has given up on Diaby playing CM. He is trying him wide and if doesn’t work (which it isn’t) I think he will be let go.
Every other player performs a role and has a purpose. Eboue is backup RB and a good RM when we need to be strong defensively. The ManU game was a case in point. Most of us don’t like Senderos but Wenger does. Song is willing to bide his time and Wenger seems to rate him.
I would be gutted to see Bendtner leave but I agree that he is the most impatient of the lot. If he leaves, it won’t be because Wenger doesn’t like him but because he isn’t willing to wait.
About Eduardo, why judge him in less than 4 months? How much time did Hleb and Rosicky take to settle - almost two years. Eduardo comes from a weaker league and his time will come.
On the next gen - Gibbs, Merida, Barazite, Nordtveit, Vela - not sure who can step up. But one thing is for sure - we won’t need to sign too many players in the coming years.
This is the side I see for next season
GK - Almunia, Fabianski, new GK (not necessarily 3rd choice)
FB - Clichy, Traore, Sagna, Eboue
CB - Toure, Gallas, Senderos, Djourou, Song
CM - Gilberto, Cesc, Diarra, Flamini, Denilson
WM - Hleb, Rosicky, Walcott,
FW - RvP, Ade, Eduardo, Bendtner
November 15th, 2007 at 8:33 am
A new WM got missed in the last post.
November 15th, 2007 at 11:25 am
By the way, Danny, if Wenger does implement your wish list, he would have to buy 4-5 players next summer - GK, RB for Hoyte and Eboue, CB for Sendy and WM for Diaby, maybe two because Walcott will become 4th striker and Eboue has also left.
November 15th, 2007 at 12:07 pm
As I said, it’s a prediction, not a wish list. A couple of these players (Senderos, Hoyte, arguably Diaby - although I don’t want him to go) look like surplus as the squad is too big.
November 15th, 2007 at 3:36 pm
Its hard to make a prediction based on the limited number of times we get to see some of these young guys in action, but here are some thoughts:
1. Diaby just doesnt seem to have the touch or passing ability to play in CM unless he could develop some defensive ability and emerge as a replacement for Flamini. I just dont see it. GONE.
2. Bendtner. I dont see AW getting rid of him but he might get impatient and want to leave. I think he’s quite good, and at 19 has significant potential upside. He wins balls in the air, holds it up nicely and has an eye for a good pass. If anything, he has been a bit unselfish in front of goal, sometimes taking a bit too long on the ball looking for the perfect pass. He played a good 1-2 with Eboue for his Slavia goal, he had some nice passes in the CC Cup game vs. Newcastle and was in perfect position to receive a pass back from Diaby towards the end of the game. He also sent a very nice cross field ball to Eduardo for his opening goal vs. Sheffield Utd. I think AW makes an effort to keep him because he is quality.
3. Adebayor… are you kidding me? He’s only 23 and as his frame fills out a bit it is possible that he could emulate Drogba. He’s made a big improvement from when he first came to Arsenal, and even if he didnt improve he is a quality player. No way he is going anywhere.
4. Dudu. Who knows? But so far, its been disappointing. His touch seems to be off. Reminds me a bit of Baptista. Baptista was on loan so it was easy for AW to release him. Dudu cost big $$$ so I think AW will keep him on another year to see if he beds in.
5. Diarra. I just dont see what all the fuss is about. I like his ball skills and hunger for the ball but unsold on his distribution. I see him staying for now.
6. Denilson. He’s 18. The kid has silky skills and can spray the ball all over the place. I agree he doesnt quite have the killer final ball, and he isnt as good defensively as Flam, Diarra, but he’s only 18. Touch and distribution are more hallmarks of an Arsenal player than strength on the tackle. Kid is going nowhere for a while.
7. Song. At 20, and in the process of switching from CM to CB. Give him some time. Toure started out as a CM.
8. Hoyte. Easiest call Gotta go. No room.
9. Senderos and Djourou. Both stay… for now. Gallas only has a few years left.
Finally, about Kaka…. he could definitely play 2nd striker role along with Cesc, but no way we are going to pay big $$$ to get him. Just fantasy football.
November 16th, 2007 at 2:11 am
I just saw the extended highlights of the Reading game. I am surprised that nobody mentioned how Shorey’s freekick went around our wall and hit the post with Almunia beaten. A repeat of the Spurs goal. This is not a good sign. How much practice do we need to get a wall correct?