Dec 01
Five points clear in a Jekyll/Hyde game, as Arsenal did enough to get past a red-hot Aston Villa side.
Villa struck first from Craig Gardner before Flamini and Adebayor struck for the Gunners to take the 2-1 lead at the half. The second half was all about withstanding intense Villa pressure, which wasn’t helped when Alex Hleb had to go off after a hard foul from behind by John Carew. Yellow, not Red, a bit debatable.
Frayed nerves and chewed nails, but the win puts us five points in front. Great start to a tough league stretch.
December 1st, 2007 at 4:00 pm
Five points.
December 1st, 2007 at 4:04 pm
First of all it was an absolutely cracking game; one of the best this season. Pleased with the resilience though they got too many free kicks second half for my liking. We managed to defend a lead WHICH IS CRUCIAL and will be crucial going into the final stages.A quick roundup as usual then:
Almunia: No way he was gonna stop that goal. That apart was quite good in the second half. He does the simple things right and since he hasnt been tested yet on the tough things; its fair to say he has done okay so far.
Toure: King King King .. all bow down. Even when he mistimes a challenge or gives the ball away he puts every part of his body on the line. Saved our butt numerous times.
Gallas: An up and down game for me. Was decent but thats all. Sagna was clearing more balls than him in the second half. Poor clearance for the goal; the flicked header is what Carew should have been doing to set a goal up. Gallas should have headed it in the direction the ball came from or turned it out for a corner. Easier said thand one I know..but still for teh sake of debate…
Sagna and Clichy: Snuffed Agbonlahor out; didnt quite deal with Young totally with him gaining numerous free kicks but overall very good games. Clichy did to AGbonlahor what he does to almost every other pacy tricky winger/striker.. snuff him out. They cannot beat him on pace. Who is Ashley Cole?
Hleb: An untouchable. We suffered noticeably when he went off. Hope he is fit sooner than later.
Rosicky: Slowly reaching his form and showing us what he is all about. A hard creative runner who does a lot more defensive work than Pires used to do. Stayed central today more often than not due to Cesc’s absence.
Flamini/Diarra: Excellent excellent games. I don’t see how you can drop the FLamster. No CLichy — Flamini at left back. Tactical switch - FLamini right back , Central midfield — Flamini , Struggling for ideas and need a goal — Flamini , NO CESC - Flamini. MOTM for me. Diarra looked good as well turning in tight spaces and bursting forward. Had a hand in one of the goals during build up; forget which one it was.
Eboue– One of his better games. Offers pace and power on the wing and today he did his defensive duties well helping out against Young and Agbonlahor both of whom drifted onto Sagna’s wing second half for some reason. Maybe thats why Rosicky got subbed instead of him as usual.
Big Ade: A mixedbag as usual but he gives you so much that you got to love him. If Bendtner stays he will replace Big Ade eventually but as it stands Ade is tops. As 1 of the commentators said: When Adebayor scores Arsenal do not lose.
Lastly: I saw almost the whole game on mute. The bias was sickeningly “English player” favoured the whol of Saturday where everyone made it apoint to blab subtly about the foreigner issue yet again. I’m sick of it.
Delighed with the win though. Here’s hoping that Newcastle don’t choose our game to get back into form.
December 1st, 2007 at 4:10 pm
Santa Cruz, Bent, Heskey and now Carew becomes the fourth player to tackle Arsenal players from behind causing us to have to sub injured players. That’s a great strategy by the opposition. Let’s not forget McShane’s and Noble’s attacks on Hleb. We need that protection that Ferguson was crying about.
We could have recovered from the early second half pressure from Villa but once Hleb went off, we no longer had a ball controlling outlet. Walcott was invisible after coming on for Hleb (gashed calf).
Diarra was good in the first half but faded in the second half as he gave the ball away twice in dangerous positions.
As I predicted, Flamini was the key and he was as he filled the Fabregas role admirably. We don’t win this game with Gilberto in the starting lineup.
Our backline bent in the second half but did not break. Sagna and Clichy held Young and Agbonlahor in check as we all knew they would.
Carew presented a constant danger but for a shot off the crossbar, he was contained by a defensive committee.
All the strong attacking moves in the first half came from Eboue and Sagna. Our left side (Clichy and Rosicky) needs to get better.
Almunia does enough to maintain his place.
No one should need any further convincing that Adebayor is class. I predicted that this could be a Drogba type break out season for Adebayor.
Arsenal come back from a bad loss with a statement game against an in-form team with a convincing win. That says it all. Now let’s destroy the woeful Newcastle in the make up game on Wednesday.
December 1st, 2007 at 4:19 pm
I love this class of 2008, among all things, one stand out quality is they play with such a discipline which wasn’t the trademark of AW’s Arsenal at the past.
For instance, on one occassion the 2nd half, Adebayor closed a Villa defender all the way, and eventually forced the poor fellow to dribble the ball out of touchline and won us a free-throw. Now imagine Henry would do that at the past.
we talking about resilence of this Arsenal side, but it can only work with all 10 outfield players doing their share of dirty work.
it sure hell is no accident that we have kept grinding out result. because we got no more LUXURY player in our team. Even the main man Cesc Fabregas has a wonderful workrate, espeically for a guy supposed to be the “playmaker”. And we all know playmaker don’t do the dirty work. They left them to the water-carriers.
So now we played “outside” of London, we played without our key men, wonder what next those doubters would come up?
December 1st, 2007 at 4:20 pm
That first half was unbelievable. Hleb was an absolute genius. Again. Diarra, Eboue, Flamini, Rosicky were all imperious. The whole half left me open-mouthed in astonishment.
However, the second half was a complete shambles. It actually made me re-assess once again the future of this Arsenal side. Every single player bottled it, for want of a finer word. Gallas and Toure were like a pair of pussycats dropping off everytime and building a trench in six yard box. They made Carew out to be King Kong or something. Of course, he’s a threat, but for god’s sake attack the ball for once,
The midfield was a complete disgrace as well. Diarra showed disturbingly weak mental fortitude and looked like he was playing in quicksand. Flamini was flailing away circa 2004-2006. Eboue turned into a retard. Rosicky hid away like a little girl. Adebayor couldn’t hold onto anything, while Walcott was an embarassment. He should not play away from the Emirates ahead of Bendtner. The young Dane should have been on after sixty minutes.
Overall, a great result but that second half astounded me. I knew we had those weaknesses all along but I didn’t think they would be exposed so explicity and in such a manner.
December 1st, 2007 at 4:26 pm
A tale of two halves.
Great match of football for the neutral.
For me, a fantastic result - a game that keeps you believing in this side. Somehow, we hung in there in the second half - kudos to a Villa side that has tremendous heart.
December 1st, 2007 at 4:35 pm
What happened the second half was pretty simple wasn’t it?
Villa came out and press, and close down. Now u expected they would. The way we kept losing possession had nothing to do with our lack of quality IMO.
If we made any mistake the 2nd half, it’s the persistence to play an UP-TEMPO
game. A sign of the team’s lack of experience than anything else.
with Villa closing us down, yet we still tried to play an up-tempo game resulted lot of cheap possessions giving away.
Could we have played a slower tempo game and pass around the defence? I believe they could if they want to play it this way. But my guess at that time is they were eagerly to look for a 3rd goal to kill the game off.
i think AW did the right thing to bring on Gilberto for Rosicky. To give us a more experienced, clam-head figure.
I dont know how u can used to term “bottled it” Mazza. If we conceded an equalizer that u can call “bottled it”. The fact that we hold out for a win not because of luck. Our defenders diving around blocking shots, so that we could hold out for a win. They sure hell don’t deserve to be called bottlers.
December 1st, 2007 at 4:38 pm
Villa gave Arsenal a FREE first half, and Arsenal took full advantage. You wouldn’t expect a Martin O’Neill side to require a massive kick up the backside at half time, but they did.
Arsenal showed they can play it both ways, although in the second-half I was disappointed that so many players were just hoofing it towards Adebayor - it was VERY panicky - not a lot of football being played.
The fact that so many players have not won anything at the club contributed to that panicking. Bendtner for example would have done a much better job of holding the ball up than Walcott - but I can understand the substitution.
We are now bound to see Newcastle do exactly the same as Villa did in the second half today. Villa’s tactics worked, so I think Newcastle will be a much harder game now than I initially expected. With probably no Hleb or Fabregas, it’s going to make life a lot harder.
Almunia (8) Did very well today, came out of his area well to punch crosses - looked commanding.
Sagna (8) Superb, setting up a goal and defending like a demon, what a player!
Toure (7) Panicked on several occasions, going for the same ball as Gallas, but fairly steady
Gallas (8) Natural leader, players follow by example
Clichy (6) Weak link at the back today, positional awareness is still not a strong point
Eboue (7) Superb in the first half, with some great crosses, just about kept his composure throughout
Hleb (9) Superb first half display, sliced Villa apart repeatedly and never lost the ball
Diarra (7) Fantastic in the first half but lost the plot in the bit in the 2nd, giving the ball away repeatedly, although often winning it back again
Rosicky (7) Looked sharp and dangerous - waned in second half but always helped defence
Flamini (8) Very good performance, scored a great goal, and got forward at every opportunity - second half less impressive
Adebayor (7) Usual workhorse performance, good to see him bury that header.
Subs
Gilberto (6) Made a small difference when he came on
Walcott (4) Poor. Just dribbled into dead-ends without looking up to see who was around him. Beginning to look very “English” to me, ie. no footballing brain - a bit like Aaron Lennon.
Bendtner (/) Only had one minute
December 1st, 2007 at 4:43 pm
Oh, and Mazza, Arsenal bottled nothing. Bottling the game would have been drawing or losing, like Tottenham would have - but they held out, and if you look at the game Villa only had 3 or 4 attempts on target - not bad for a team that put 4 past Blackburn away midweek. Again, your assessment is completely over-the-top and you forget that Arsenal still have a young side, most of which have yet to win a trophy at the club. You are expecting experience from inexperience - try and think with more clarity, not every game is going to be as simple as you seem to think.
December 1st, 2007 at 5:07 pm
We did look to be at sixes and sevens for long stretches of the second half. I think the Hleb injury was a big deal on both sides of the pitch. We lost a bit of attacking edge, and Walcott is a weaker defender than Hleb. We were lucky not to concede an equalizer. That said, a very good win away from home, and the best way to start a long December.
December 1st, 2007 at 5:16 pm
This was Aston Villa Danny. Not Barcelona or AC Milan. Okay, Villa have had a decent few results- brilliant score wise- but ask any Villa fan and they will tell you that Villa did not actually play that well in those games and they were not getting too enthusiastic about the Arsenal game. After all, Man United didn’t seem that preturbed by Villa’s second half performance a couple of months ago. Why? because United played with a semblence of composure and exposed Villa’s one dimensional approach. Villa had quite a few chances in this match that probably won’t show up on the stats. Plenty of situations that we were lucky to clear.
And who cares whether players have won trophies at the club. This wasn’t an F.A Cup final or Champions League semi-final; it was a league game in December. Eighty-percent of players in the premier league havent won a trophy with their club. It doesn’t mean they played like spastics every time they get a lead.
Also, this team isn’t that young or inexperienced. I wish people would stop going on about that. We have a quite a few experienced players and all of our younger ones are experienced for their age. Fact is we showed a very vulnerable side to our game which even surprised me with its extremity. Alot of teams will take an awful lot of heart after that. Villa didn’t even do anything that great; it was very basic stuff.
December 1st, 2007 at 5:27 pm
Good Victory, I was watching the whole match and I was sitting on the edge of my barko-lounger by the 80th minute nibbling on every fingernail I had left, I now I have none! I was one that thought that the recent loss in Sevilla would play a bigger role, mainly cause Villa is in top form and would’ve been licking their chops to get at us….. This for me only shows that this squad is the real deal, I wish Arsenal would offer Flamini a new contract, he has truly come into his own and showed that he can play at the highest of levels! So AW please get this man signed to a new deal before the end of the season especially if he continues on in this form; we dont want any other snatc&*#s coming in and taking him away from us. I was really angered by the foul on the Hlebster, does this guy have the worst luck on the pitch, or does he have a big bullseye on his back??? No matter hope he’s ok and will be back asap as well as I hope RVP gets back soon as well cause now the matches will be coming thick -n- fast!
Up the Arse!
December 1st, 2007 at 5:31 pm
Andez, so if Carew’s header had been a couple of inches lower and gone in off the underside of the bar, or Martin Laursen had re-directed his shot a yard to the right, and Villa had equalised, that would have made Arsenal bottlers? Surely you can see how stupid that philosophy is. What about the moment Flamini just stood off and allowed Patrick Berger to shoot from twenty yards with five minutes to go? If Berger had hit that they way he regularly has over the years and Villa scored, that would qualify us a bottlers?
Villa didn’t need to equalise to tell me that Arsenal crapped their pants. The answer was in how they kept getting opportunities to test our defence. We showed great heart, and scrapped for our lives at times, but it still doesn’t mean we did not bottle it. It was Villareal away all over again.
December 1st, 2007 at 5:54 pm
The second half was definately a nail biter, but since when has an away game in the premier league ever been easy when you are up by 1. I think the Hleb injury affected us the most. Up to that point in the second half, we weren’t playing great, but Hleb going off took away more than the bench could replace. I think Flamini got tired in the second half, but all in all he looked very good. Tough win, but 3 points is such a great result with no Cesc, no RVP, Hleb going out, and Flamini and Ade coming back off of knocks, and the team coming off the first loss of the season.
December 1st, 2007 at 5:59 pm
IF my aunt got balls, I would have to call her uncle.
IF Spurs were squirrel, they would have played in the Champions League.
Unfortunately, in reality, there is no such thing call IF.
December 1st, 2007 at 6:10 pm
That’s right Andez, dodge the issue with the great “no such thing called iif” cliche.
December 1st, 2007 at 6:19 pm
Let me ask u one thing Mazza: say, someone bet on the Villa Arsenal match. after the match he goes to the bookie and try collecting the winner. but the bookie tells him “hey son, u bet for a draw. so u didn’t win the bet did u?”. Can u tell the bookie “but but…. IF John Carew’s header went a inch lower, that would be a draw. So I won!”
Based on the same argument u had above, IF we won all our matches last season, we would have been the defending champions this season wouldn’t we?
So quite frankly, I cannot understand what are you on about?
December 1st, 2007 at 6:26 pm
Still dodging the issue….
December 1st, 2007 at 7:30 pm
LDE, I understand what you mean about repeatedly hearing about the foreign player issue. Until something new develops specific to the match being shown, it needs to be tabled. If it weren’t that, it’d be some other thing being pounded into the ground, as seen in this thread. There is no real difference.
The issue of possession needs to be sorted now. This month is overloaded with matches and possession will be a problem without a solid remedy.
December 1st, 2007 at 7:39 pm
Just remember Mazza, the if game can be played both ways. In the first half, IF Carson doesn’t make some good saves, IF the Villa defenders don’t make some good last minute tackles, then the score could have been a lot different than 2-1.
That being said, I can’t remember the last game I saw with such disparate halves and Arsenal did get a little lucky. Of course, Carew could have gotten a red so Villa were a bit lucky too.
December 1st, 2007 at 7:45 pm
Didn’t Aston Villa beat Chelsea at home? Chelsea, champions the season before last and second tonight? Yeah, Mazza, that was Aston Villa. Did Chelsea spend the last twenty minutes of that game hoofing the ball forward to their centre-forward? Can’t remember, but I bet they did. If Terry was playing they would have sent him up front as well.
Bottling is when a team stops playing, stops tackling, stops covering, reverts to hoofing the ball forward. Arsenal were stretched today, but they didn’t bottle it. You can’t say that we showed great heart but that we bottled it. They are contradictory terms. I mean, why should we care if John Carew’s header went an inch lower. If it went six inches lower, Almunia catches it. Who is to say which if is more accurate.
IF you go back through all our games and start saying things like what if Adebayor messes up every chance the way he messes up every second chance, then we are ten goals down, what if we conceded instead of scoring in the last ten minutes? At that rate, we would be below Spurs after a lot of ifs.
December 1st, 2007 at 7:50 pm
We shouldn’t even be getting into the “if” game Seattlegooner. Anyone with an iota of football knowledge can see what I’m talking about. I personally don’t care about Carew’s header hitting the crossbar, or the Laursen shot screwing just wide. I’m just pointing the absurdity of people admitting that they would qualify my comments if any of those chances went in; which they so easily could have done. Instead, we won the game and people reel out all the cliches like how we ground out the game and showed our character etc.
Anyway, we’ve won the game. I prefer to remember that first half. Absolutely sublime football.
December 1st, 2007 at 7:50 pm
I watched the game on FSC today and it totallly rocked. The header by Ade was magnificent, tallest man to the ball. I agree Flamini has been a relevation this season. As far as the foreign player issue is concern, people are missing the point. Keep it simple. Look at the top five teams in the premiership, they are diluted with both foreignors and English nationals. The problem lies with the management and coaching. We can fire all the foreign players and managers and then let’s see how the teams do with English management and coaching. The results I predict will be terrible. The world has changed with globaliztion, multcorporations recruit their top managers from all over the world and premiership teams should follow suit, because in some respect they are corporations (PLCs) with shareholders. Do not blame the players, England was badly managed McClaren.
I do not like hyprocrisy, people need to stop talking from both sides of their mouth. As an Arsenal fan, someone made a great point on this board last week. There are many English players athat are currently active that came throught the Arsenal system. The English managers are not choosing them. Do not blame Wenger!!! Do not blame foreignors, but examine the structure which begins with the top.
To make my point: some people are still idiotic to pick David Beckham over David Bentley
David, the Asrsenal fan
PS I cannot defend Senderos anymore, I was hoping that he would come good.
December 1st, 2007 at 7:54 pm
“Bottling is when a team stops playing, stops tackling, stops covering, reverts to hoofing the ball forward. Arsenal were stretched today, but they didn’t bottle it.”
Arsenal did everyone of those things! They didn’t stop tackling but they weren’t very successful at it.
December 1st, 2007 at 8:27 pm
#15 “if Spurs were squirrels… they’d of played in the Champions League” funny stuff
#13 “and Villa had equalised, that would have made Arsenal bottlers.” Mazza my man you need to visit a woman in my profession. If Arsenal had of lost then Villa would have won.
What does “bottling” have to do with this game. The only thing remotely related to “bottling” in this game were the “bottle tokes” some people took at half-time.
#24 What a boob!
December 1st, 2007 at 8:56 pm
Yes, Bottling it was not the term I would use. Villa just tried to play like Bolton and the other teams that have disturbed our rhythm.
December 1st, 2007 at 10:04 pm
Mazza, stop digging your own grave - it’s really getting embarrassing for you. You used to talk sense but you seem to be on a crusade to destroy your rep. What’s the point in saying “what if this happened?” and “what if that happened?”. Are you trying to make some sort of prediction about how Arsenal are going to f*ck the title up? Well so what? Nobody thought Arsenal would win the title this year in the first place.
So Man Utd thrashed Villa 4-1, what does that have to do with anything? They also drew 0-0 at home to Reading, Arsenal won 3-1 AWAY to Reading. So what do you read into that?
There are many ways to win a football match, and they’re not all pretty. You simply don’t win a title by playing beautiful football in every game. Look at the boring, negative sh*t Chelsea serve up week in week out - they hoof it to Drogba in every single match, they did it again today - are they serial bottlers?
And what of Man Utd, at their peak I remember how pissed off I used to get that those “jammy bastards” would always score in the last minute or two - they must have played like shit before they got all those last minute winners. I used to think they were lucky, they weren’t.
It sounds to me like you actually WANT Arsenal to slip up just so you can say “I told you so?” to salvage your ego. You’re getting more like that dumb ass Stag with every passing week - eventually it all got on top of him and he ended up speaking such crap everyone just laughed at him. He became the joke of Arsenal Amercia, and that’s where you’re heading at this rate.
December 1st, 2007 at 10:38 pm
I’m thinking the exact opposite Danny; more like I’m the only one(along with a few others) that can objectively pass judgment on games without reverting to lazy cliches afterwards depending on the result.
I couldn’t give a rats ass about the result. I look at performances and individual contributions. Results may give you a short-term boost but performances are the real gauge of how a team will fare. Arsenal may learn from their second half display but this seems to be a regular occurence when Arsenal have the lead and a team gets in their faces, so I wouldn’t be too sure. One thing is for sure, I don’t see Man United and Chelsea flailing away hanging on for dear life at Villa Park, regardless of the result.
Anyway, once again my comments have been blown all out of proportion by numbnuts like yourself who are contesting the incontestable; that Arsenal were fucking shit in the second half. Of course, you’ve conceded that the term “bottlers” would be an accurate description of Arsenal if Carew’s header had been a few inches lower and we had drawn the game. Your looking like the joke, pal.
December 1st, 2007 at 11:08 pm
Wow, it still amazes me how people can see one game so differently. A bit surprised but I agree with both of DannyT’s posts. Kinda funny too because looking at Mazza’s 1st post in this thread I also agree- Walcott was ineffective and I would’ve liked Bendtner much sooner. I also agree with Mazza that in terms of play our 2nd half was shit.
No one thinks that the 2nd half had much for the highlights for us, but Arsenal survived and hopefully they will learn. The backline did a lot more clearances out of bounds and to the opposition than I can remember in a long time. I expected more of a backline passaround than that. The first half was sublime though.
Hleb amazed me today- how many times did he have two or even three defenders on him and dribble out of danger?! This relieved a lot of pressure on the midfielders.
Hate to admit it but Chelsea showed quality 2 years ago when they won, same for Man U last year. We are averaging 2.5 points per game while all the others barely have their noses about 2 per. We are class.
December 1st, 2007 at 11:08 pm
My only complaint was that we stopped playing the Arsenal brand of football once Hleb was off. Why that happened, I cannot say. I am sure Wenger and the team will be discussing it. Every time we got a free kick, the defense would push up and Almunia would kick the ball long. I can’t remember even a few minutes of passing by Arsenal in the second half.
Apart from that, I thought we did great. the first half was sublime. If we had better finishers on the pitch, we could have been 4-1 up and Villa would have had a recurrence of the ManU nightmare.
I though Almunia did very well in the second half. He actually came out for crosses and punched them hard and far. Is he learning from Lehmann or was he pissed that Gallas and Toure weren’t handling Carew well?
I thought Ade had a poor game. He wasn’t putting pressure on the opposition like he usually does. I think playing 4-5-1 is taking the toll on him. How long can he keep running in high energy mode?
Bendtner would have done a better job of holding the ball and defending than Walcott. But Wenger was not to know that the team would fall apart when Hleb went off.
All in all, I am delighted with the result. Sometimes, you grind out results and yesterday was such a day.
On Wed, we can expect Fat Sam to employ his favourite “if you can’t beat them then kick them” tactic. I hope we are prepared for it and keeping passing around them, with or without Cesc and Hleb.
December 1st, 2007 at 11:21 pm
Also felt that Gilberto made a big difference when he came on. His height made a difference in winning some of the high balls. He may not be a starter but he does help in tight games like this. Long term, the only worry about a Flamini/Diarra + Cesc CM is the lack of height, which is a big issue as we are weak in the air.
December 1st, 2007 at 11:34 pm
that 2nd half was brutal. nobody in nevada smith’s had fingernails left when the final whistle blew…
December 1st, 2007 at 11:44 pm
My bad about the six points - I listened to the announcers on the FSC feed, one of whom was Nigel Winterburn, and they said Arsenal would be 6 points clear. Nutty is a legend, but not a great analyst - he also said it was Hleb who gave the ball away for the Villa goal when it was clearly Flamini.
Hleb was absolutely amazing, as he’s been almost all year, and I think you could make a case that he, not Cesc, is our most important player. My concern, a bit early I’ll admit, is that he’s turning into an Henry-type in the sense that other players expect him to be the man and they play that way, and when he’s out they don’t step up. Rosicky, as was pointed out earlier, didn’t really shine either on the left or in the middle. Definitely disappointed in him this season.
Don’t mean to nitpick - I’ll take this 3 points any day over a “better” performance that in the past has gotten only one.
Oh, Clichy was also terrific today (again), so much so that Villa just stopped going to his side after awhile and instead put the pressure on Sagna, who had one of less awesome performances in awhile.
December 2nd, 2007 at 12:11 am
mazza, in my view, a champions performance only has to be great half the time. the most important. the other half is usually either boring, direct and if you have the winners aura….outright lucky.
i remember watching a Birmingham-ManU game a few weeks ago….and B’ham TOTALLY bossed the game for over 70 minutes and hit the woodworks a couple of times and missed one on ones. ManU only had 2 shots on target…and Ronaldo scored one of them off a blunder. The way Man U was dominated was similar and lasted longer than today at Villa park. Are Man U bottlers??
our inability to play well SOMETIMES when we have the lead away is down a LOT to wenger! i think wenger is tactically weak. and whenever he tells his team to back off and “defend” we play somewhat like we did in the second half.
he bought and trained players who are possession specialist…..and are always uncomfortable without the ball. i mean you have been championing diarra up and down for months….he played blindingly great in the first half…..did he SUDDENLY become a bottler today despite never “bottling” it for chelsea or france before???
wenger’s inability to teach non-possession football was offset in the past by our fabled counterattack. then we had a super fast henry. and very quick wide players who could get into the perfect scoring positions in seconds. all that was needed was a bergkamp flick or a vieira riding a couple of tackles and boom, we punish the opposition.
now, we have no really quick players apart from our fullbacks. our strikers and midfielders are simply not fast enough to counter. and in the second half we didnt have the creative midfielders on to spark something.
December 2nd, 2007 at 12:11 am
To move the debate onto an etymological level:
bottle (noun) something akin to “nerve”. To “lose one’s bottle” is to chicken out of something - often just described as “bottling it”.
Using this definition, we can probably all agree that Arsenal bottled out of controlling the game in the second half by giving up the attacking initiative, i.e. bringing on Gilberto, sitting deep, hoofing it up to Adebayor instead of working to keep possession and playing out of defence. There’s no shame in it. Villa worked effing hard to shut us down and rattle us.
But while we did bottle out of pressing for that vital third goal, we didn’t flinch from the job of defending our lead (that would be Villa at White Hart Lane), even if we’re some way away from truly knowing how to shut up shop a la George Graham.
Over all, this is the kind of hard away fixture against an in-form team that we’ve rarely won over the past two years. And that is encouraging.
December 2nd, 2007 at 12:33 am
as i have said in the summer and countless times over during the season, we have 3 or 4 players who will basically DETERMINE our season, Cesc, Hleb, RvP, Gallas. or something like that. The rest are “framework” players. The framework players might be important players but they do not fundamentally determine if we win something. These are team average players.
Every SINGLE team is divided in such a manner. the top 4 generally have the best “frame-work” players. ànd within the top 4 these star players determine who wins the league.
so its pretty much a battle between the cesc/hleb etc vs ronaldo/rooney vs. lampard/drogba. so when our team plays poorly without any of our creative outlets but still manages to win we should be very thankful.
December 2nd, 2007 at 1:10 am
@ #28
“One thing is for sure, I don’t see Man United and Chelsea flailing away hanging on for dear life at Villa Park, regardless of the result. ”
If I recall correctly, Chelsea was flailing in their attempt to come from behind in a 2-0 loss at Villa Park around Labor Day. Like I mentioned previously, and Fred pointed out in #36 this is a GOOD result considering who we didn’t have on the pitch, and some of the players having to knock off some rust, and regain match fitness. I did not like all that I saw, but you can’t play to such a high standard at all times. ManU looked awful the first 2 weeks of the season, and managed to squeek out a few results, Chelsea and Liverpool have been in the same boat. We have some issues to correct, but they are correctable, and as long as the lads are fighting for results, then its all good.
December 2nd, 2007 at 2:12 am
For one half, we were sublime. For another half, we were awful. Why take the second half as a general indicator of our overall performance for the whole season? Isn’t the fact that we are top of the table clearly say that most of our performances have been like the first half rather than the second?
We have been dominated in the league only thrice - less than a half at Blackburn, one half at Villa, for some time vs ManU. What exactly are we complaining about?
December 2nd, 2007 at 3:25 am
In short Nipuna I can see where Mazza is coming from in a vague sense; its exactly what u said on #30.. “Stopping playing the Arsenal brand”. But really as you say on #38.. “Why are we complaining?”
I think I know the reason though: We are a bunch of spoilt brats. AW and the boys have spoiled us so badly that anything below the magic triangle Cesc-Hleb-Rosicky level of passing is unacceptable. Thats all.
December 2nd, 2007 at 5:02 am
It was a different performance than usual. Usually we score in the last ten minutes to win the match, rather than holding on for dear life to ensure 3 points.
I am personally happy with it, because it showed that we can defend when under the pump.
With the team that was on the pitch at the end it is no surprise that the game ended like it did (with Villa pressing hard for the equaliser). The fact that the score remained as it did is no surprise either. Despite their 2 or 3 good chances, Arsenal on the whole defended ok.
And mazza, you should definitely hook up with Stoned Emirates Hooker, it might help you to chill out, just a bit…
December 2nd, 2007 at 6:17 am
The 4-5-1 doesn’t work well without Hleb. He’s our Cruyff. Someone reiterated my point in saying it’s Hleb, and not Fabregas, that’s our go to guy. I’ve said since last season that when Fabregas doesn’t know what to do, he just passes the ball to Hleb who can make something from nothing. It’s like Fab’s our Rui Costa and Hleb’s our Figo. Even when Adebayor was out and van Persie was the lone striker, we still had Hleb in the team so we were still very dangerous. But without Hleb, then we’ll need two strikers.
Someone also mentioned that Flamini looked tired towards the end. I wrote that I didn’t think he should start today because it’s been a while since he’s played a full game. He did take his goal well, though. I also thought Gilberto was fantastic when he came on. Diarra looked bad in the second half and he did the same things at Chelsea. He needs to keep possession better. I know Wenger was wishing Denilso was on the bench as he’s a guy that can properly execute the right pass to help us keep a little possession, which is the main thing we needed.
I don’t know how anyone can say anything bad about Ade. He’s the league’s top scorer and we have no one who can stretch a team like he can. Fantastic game winner yesterday. I thought Wenger should have brought him off ten to 15 minutes earlier, though. This game’s all about winning.
December 2nd, 2007 at 6:46 am
@Mazza …..I appreciate your points and efforts to bring a sense of perspective to people who might be going overboard with the team’s current run of form …but unfortunately i think you are guilty of doing the very same thing ..except in the opposite direction.
While i everyone agrees that we played poorly in the second half…the way you have lambasted the players in your first post…is shocking to say the least..and this when we came away with a win.
The very reason we can appreciate the beauty of our play in the first half..is the shoddy display in the second half..if Arsenal were a sure shot to win every game they play in..with not a single mistake..no misplaced passes..it would probably make for good watching..for some time..then it would also get might boring..won’t it?
That’s the beauty of football for me
Cheers
Wayne
December 2nd, 2007 at 7:00 am
I remember the same concerns being voiced after the Blackburn game. We were kind of over-run in that second half as well. Look at the differences.
We conceded at Blackburn (albeit a Lehmann error). We didn’t at Villa.
We drew at Blackburn. We won at Villa.
We had Cesc and Hleb at Blackburn. We has Cesc missing, Hleb going off and Rosicky mostly anonymous at Villa.
That was game 3 of the season. This was game 23.
If that is not a sign of improvement, I don’t know what is.
December 2nd, 2007 at 8:31 am
Mazza - “Anyway, once again my comments have been blown all out of proportion by numbnuts like yourself who are contesting the incontestable; that Arsenal were fucking shit in the second half. Of course, you’ve conceded that the term “bottlers” would be an accurate description of Arsenal if Carew’s header had been a few inches lower and we had drawn the game. Your looking like the joke, pal.”
This is where your argument falls flat on its face. The FACT is, Carew’s header WASN’T a few inches lower. What if Hleb had dribbled past 10 players and smashed it in the top right hand corner? Oh, wait a minute, HE DIDN’T. And Carew DIDN’T score from a header. Maybe if he was a better player he would have, but he MISSED. If he was Alan Shearer it might have been 2-2, but he’s NOT. This is where your whole argument falls flat on its face with your ridiculous “What if” theory.
Yeah, Arsenal didn’t play well in the second half - that much was obvious. Was it a cause for slight concern - yes maybe, maybe not. But you must be awfully naive if you think every team is just going to sit back while Arsenal turn them over with beautiful football. Villa are a top 6 side this season, you can’t expect to go away to a top 6 side and get an easy ride every time - of ever. Villa went up 2 gears and closed down every Arsenal player like maniacs, that is obviously going to disrupt Arsenal’s cohesive passing, and yet again, in the second half there was no Fabregas, Hleb, Van Persie - our 3 best players at passing, close control and holding the ball. Small details make a big difference.
Maybe Arsenal were taken by surprise, and now they know that some games will be an almighty fight to the death. I am sure they will have learned something yesterday, if not then perhaps they’re not as good as we thought they were. But so far, no evidence of that - they coped, just about - and that’s positive, not negative.
December 2nd, 2007 at 8:53 am
Flamini’s goal was so well taken. For a DM, his finishing is very strong and instinctive. Our other midfielders should take note.
Between the full backs, Sagna was clearly more troubled than Clichy. He gave away too many free kicks. You can’t do that against a side which is very strong in the side. He should try and force the winger to cross under pressure rather than concede a free kick. Of course, easier said than done.
December 2nd, 2007 at 9:29 am
Just a few words about the Carew tackle. He got a lot of praise from commentators for his physicality and the ’surprising’ quality of his footwork a la Crouch. I don’t think he has a dirty reputation, and I usually enjoy watching him.
On the other hand, the tackle that injured Hleb was cynically deliberate, a strike on the back of his achilles tendon, as Hleb was breaking on a dangerous offensive move, albeit with more defenders in front. Prior to the last WC, FIFA made a point of emphasis that such dangerous tackles from behind were red card material. I believe this refereeing practice is followed in Spain, where attacking football is valued and protected more. In the EPL, obviously, the kick from behind just merited a yellow, a ‘professional foul’ worthy of respect not condemnation.
The bottom line seems unfair, a deliberate hit that injures a key player, and nearly changes a game’s outcome, and possibly games to follow. The preliminary report on Hleb was a skin laceration, not a serious achilles injury, but if that proves to be the case we dodged a bullet. The yellow card wasn’t enough penalty for what Carew did, but football can be very unfair in the short run.
December 2nd, 2007 at 10:07 am
Macmac123 #35: “To move the debate onto an etymological level:” - absolutely hilarous- a salient point but I never imagined I’d see “etymological” used on a fan forum. Thanks for the bit of mirth on a Sunday morning.
Fred #36- I agree with the general premise but the thing I love and saw last year and more this was contributions from unexpected sources.
We count on Adebayor this year esp. with Van Persie hurt and Henry gone but last year he gained us points (Man U. Chelsea) when we didn’t expect them. I saw glimpses of this last year with Flamini and more this year. The team is so dynamic and talented- opposing teams focus on our best players at their peril. I think back to the set piece with Sagna’s header- who on this team lies in wait to surprise the opposition and score.
nipuna #45- “Flamini’s goal was so well taken. For a DM, his finishing is very strong and instinctive. Our other midfielders should take note.” Flamini’s strike was impressive, even more so since it was his left but until I see a few more similar goals I will take it as an aberration. Also, I don’t think Flamini is purely a DM- it is just his role with Hleb, Rosicky, and Fabregas on the pitch- even then he likes making runs that much is obvious.
December 2nd, 2007 at 10:11 am
Maryland Gooner, I went through the same thoughts as you as soon as Carew made the tackle. If the ref see that there was no intention to play the ball and it’s fully from behind, it should be a red card. Such things do not happen in England. Melchiot was given a red for a two footed tackle which probably took a part of the ball. Essien was given a red for elbowing an opponent. However, Terry grabbed Boa Morte by the neck and did not get even a yellow. In such cases, the refereeing is totally inconsistent.
December 2nd, 2007 at 10:21 am
GunningSteve, Flamini may not score many, but his shots are hit well and taken first time. Our other midfielders tend to dilly dally wasting opportunities. Would Hleb have struck the shot if he were in Flamini’s place y’day?
December 2nd, 2007 at 10:32 am
@nipuna: You cannot compare Hleb and Rosicky with Matty. Its like saying .. Would Flamini have made that killer pass against Liverpool to release Cesc? They are all totally different players ; effective in their own ways.
December 2nd, 2007 at 10:37 am
As for teh Carew tackle..going by that logic Ade should have had a red as well. I’m not so sure the tackle was malicious as much as it was mistimed. I mean Carew knew what he wanted to do .. stop Hleb; like Ade wanted to stop someone else and put a tackle in. Both were rubbish tackles but I dont think either one was as cynical as say..those cunty Neville brothers did on Reyes or say Pedersen’s stomp on Cesc’s neck or Bolton’s numerous tackles.
So no…dont think it was a red; I don’t think the game was malicious in any way. I guess this is what AW means by “commitment” and “aggression”.
December 2nd, 2007 at 11:44 am
Here’s some cheery news:
Arsenal must visit Burnley in FA Cup Third Round on Saturday January 5 or Sunday January 6.
They’re 9th in the Championship. A potential banana skin, but otherwise we can look forward to more youngsters in action.
PS What did happen to the incomparable Stag? Did we drive him away with abuse? Or did he finally get some meds?
December 2nd, 2007 at 11:50 am
The Euro 08 draw is even more interesting - France, Italy, Holland, Romania in the same group! A mouth-watering prospect! van Persie takes on Gallas and co.
if i remember it rightly, France, Italy and Holland were 3 of the final 4 back in Euro 2000. surely 3 of the biggest names in world football. hopefully by then we will have one or two trophies sitting in our trophy room, then we can relax and enjoy some good football (hopefully) in a more lighter mood.
December 2nd, 2007 at 12:19 pm
LDE #50 — I agree with you, and I’m not arguing that Carew or Ade’s tackles merit a red, as the rule is currently interpreted in England. It’s a problem area in interpretation. Remember how WC2006 was totally schizophrenic with reds flourishing in group play and then disappearing in knockout play?
Arsenal will always do better in a tightly refereed setting, and struggle more when aggressive kicking is tolerated. I’m positive that Alardyce will test every limit possible on Weds. It might be good to get an early lead and then sub-in Gilberto to protect our smaller midfielders.
December 2nd, 2007 at 1:00 pm
LDE, just because Hleb and Rosicky and good players doesn’t mean that they can’t improve.
December 2nd, 2007 at 1:01 pm
Hope Wenger plays the kids in the FA Cup as well. We need to concentrate on the league and CL.
December 2nd, 2007 at 1:39 pm
Never said that Nipuna. I just mean every player has his strnegths which are obvious and areas where they can improve. But after a certain age the rate of growth will be slow. I mean it is hard to ask Hleb who has been a creator , a “Bergkamp” if you like all his life to suddenly start shooting more. Its not going to happen. What can happen however is that if Hleb finds himself one on one with the keeper 15 yards out he can take a shot instead of passing. But shooting moretha passing is not going to happen. The reverse is also true with Flamini ; or say for that matter even Lampard or Gerrard. They will always shoot more; because they are that kind of player and because they have gained success over the years using that technique. A drastic change is not going to happen.
On a side note; how much does man change all his life. Adjustments are made lifelong but the roots always remain the same. IMO
December 2nd, 2007 at 2:02 pm
Is it St Totteringham’s Day yet? I love watching Tottenham lose. Especially when it is an Arsenal boy that puts them in misery.
Thought I would watch the Tottenham game to catch up on Djourou, considering that he now is going to play a very important role in our season when Kolo leaves. I thought he played decent. His tackle on Berbatov to give up the penalty was unnecessary. I still think AW needs to buy some quality in the center back spot. Then you can leave Djourou on loan and let him continue to get experience.
December 2nd, 2007 at 2:30 pm
Oh cool!! the fact that it was Larsson, a former Gunner that sank them in the last minute…. AGAIN….. really made my day!
December 2nd, 2007 at 2:33 pm
What a cracker from Seb Larsson!! Top left corner — 35 yards. Just shows if you came to Arsenal but arent good enough here; you’re invariably good enough for some other clubs and play a key role there. Oh and BTW this isn’t the first time I’ve seen Larsson do that.
December 2nd, 2007 at 2:39 pm
A little late to this party but some points some of which may have already been made:
I agree that we looked poor the second half; but what is “poor” and why? They are related as we were forced to defend by a very strong Villa side who played direct football to the target man (Carew) and with pacy wings (Young and Gabbie). Also remember that Villa have won their last four games; that doesn’t come with luck. They are a great side….
I agree with above comments that we lost quite a bit of our ability to hold the ball once Hleb left; that is concerning. I have slated and harangued Hleb in years past, but I have to admit he has been magnificent; I still think he should shoot more from the top of the box (and sometimes with his left peg).
I also would have liked to see Nik earlier than the 91st min.
The other point is that we defended very well in the second half so big up to the boys. Allowing a one goal lead to slip has been an issue for us in the recent past (Chelsea at the Bridge last year, as well as the Carling Cup final and others) and still is to certain extent (Sunderland a couple of months ago, Sevilla last week)….so for us to be on the back foot for a good 45 min and still win is very good.
No one has ever said winning the premiership should be with 3420 minutes of beautiful football. This is 3 very important points.
Big it up lads….
December 2nd, 2007 at 3:13 pm
LDE, do u got the link for the clip? i missed the game.
December 2nd, 2007 at 6:28 pm
In addition to Seb Larssen, David Bentley had two, and Anthony Stokes had a game winner…. an amazing weekend for former Gooners
December 2nd, 2007 at 9:25 pm
I guess what Nayim did to Arsenal in the last minute of the Cup Winner’s Cup, Larsson did to Spurs. Ofcourse, Nayim’s goal was from almost the half-way line in a Cup Final. Still, interesting.
I wonder if the Spurs fans will hold a march this week in the hope of getting Jol back.
December 2nd, 2007 at 10:43 pm
MarylandGooner you are on my wavelenght today. There an obvious strategy that is: Stop Hleb at all costs. Noble, McShane and now Carew with nasty challenges on Hleb. The timing of McShane’s challenge was stupid (last 5 min) and probably came about from McShane’s being in over his head. Noble’s ‘tackle’ was clearly tactical and could have broken Hleb’s leg.
Let us not forget Tuncay (Blackburn) cleating Fabregas last season and only getting a yellow. That deserved a red just as Keane and Melchiot got today for studs up tackles.
The FA goes after Fagan (Derby) for stamping on Arbeola when the match officials missed it. Where was the FA when Howard (Derby) stamped on Fabregas’ neck.
Bentley (2 goals, game winner), Stokes (game winner) and Larsson (game winner against Sp**s) are more examples of how Arsenal are beneficial to the Premiership with the production of solid players (English and foreign). Please take note Steve Coppel, Ferguson, Pearce, Platini, Blatter and Pardew. What have you done for the league Ferguson-a few less than useful FBs.
How sweet was it that Birmingham with 2 ex-Arsenal players and Djourou beat Sp**s. Djourou had a decent performance but we are expecting better than decent.
December 2nd, 2007 at 11:48 pm
Spurs losing to Birmingham at home to a last minute goal. Now that’s called bottling.
December 3rd, 2007 at 2:37 am
Yeah, Berbatov got caught in possession late while trying to be cute. What a maroon. It reminds me of Cristiano Ronaldo getting caught in possession by Fabregas last year for Adebayor’s winner at Old Trafford.
December 3rd, 2007 at 8:50 am
It’s actually the complete opposite of bottling really. Berbatov stayed true to his principles and tried to dribble the ball, and Larsson hit an unbelievable strike that no one could anything about. Know you were jesting and so am I.
December 3rd, 2007 at 10:57 am
The sky didn’t fall
We came on strong in the first and really played well towards the end of it. As far as the 2nd goes, we sat back too much and gave them too many opportunities. I was afraid we were going to draw.
In the end 3 points is 3 points.
Now lets stick it to Newcastleon Wednesday.
December 3rd, 2007 at 11:21 am
Arsenal come back from 1-0 down to win 2-1 away at Villa = Bottlers.
Spurs lead 2-1 at home but lose 2-3 to Birmingham = Not Bottlers.
Yeah, I am jesting.
December 3rd, 2007 at 11:34 am
Well you obviously don’t know the meaning of the word bottling then.
Just go on and keep letting results distort your unique revisionist thinking.
December 3rd, 2007 at 12:35 pm
If bottling = winning then I guess most teams would choose to bottle it. Before you start a satirical argument let me explain. Is bottling not “staying true” to your principles? What is staying true? Would you have liked us to kept playing like that CSKA game when Rosicky missed from a yard out? And then for Vagner Love to have scored on that breakaway and us kept “being true”?
There is a point in what you say in the sense that a team continues to believe in their ability even when the chips are down and keeps playing the same way irrespective of the result; and keep doing the same things again and again till the oposition breaks. We would have done this if our playmakers were on the pitch. Now if Hleb or Cesc or Mozart started to hoof it forward like Kolo; I’d be worried and would tend to agree with the “bottling bit” though I’m not sure many would care. But yes I would agree. However with a midfield of Gilberto, Flamini, Diarra, Eboue and Theo I fail to see your point. What would you have preferred then? For Flamini to have tried a Hlebesque dribble in his own dee and ended up giving away a goal? Doesnt make sense..does it?
That way then Chelsea are bottlers? Because they beat Man City 6-0 and then ground out a 1-0 at Westham? It isn’t that crystal clear Mazza - If you beat ManU 3-0 ; there is no gurantee you will not lose to Derby 1-0 — Because of the variance involved.Because of a different challenge. etc etc … Hence an adjustment when you’re not playing well enough to pass the ball and you know no one on the pitchis good enough; you shut up shop and defend well.
I can gurantee that if ManU had done this; you’d have praised their championship winning form and ability to “Win game when they are not playing well”… right now IMO you’re just clutching at straws…
December 3rd, 2007 at 12:49 pm
@Andez62: I was following it online and then I read this and ran out to watch the tv to catch Seb’s goal…but it was an absolute cracker…outside of the foot.. top left corner..here you go…not sure if the link works though…
http://www.zshare.net/video/53260203f43bab/
Here’s what I read though:
88 Unbelievable! Kapo fires a stunning ball all the way across the goal and Forssell hits the bar from just a yard or two out - admittedly it hit him at pace but that was a great chance to win it.
90 Absolutely unbelievable! Seb Larsson unleashes a stunning thunderbolt into the top corner from 35 yards to surely win it for Birmingham - the home fans are silent.
Love it….
..
December 3rd, 2007 at 1:03 pm
No, actually if United had played like I would called them lucky bastards and would have rubbed my hands with glee because I would thinking there is no way on earth that could win the title playing like that; playing the whole 45 minutes like most teams play stoppage time, when they are leading. We basically played stoppage time football for 45 minutes.
I expected Arsenal to play the second half like they did the first half. We were not gung-ho in the first half, we had the perfect balance. A teams’ approach is relative to their style. United can afford to dit deep with two great headers like Vidic and Ferdinand. The story is different for us with Toure and Gallas.
Hleb and Rosicky were on the pitch together until the sixtieth minute. We were getting roasted for fifteen minutes before then. Why? Because the team had lost their nerve and were too scared to keep the line they played in the first half. Last time I checked the game doesn’t end at half-time when your 2-1 up.
Watched the second half again and Villa were very agressive, however we gave them the platform for their aggressiveness to reap dividends. Villa reminded me of Chelsea circa 2004-2006. Chelsea didn’t bottle anything either on Saturday; they played like they always do.
December 3rd, 2007 at 1:35 pm
It has been said by many above. The second half was in complete antithesis to the first half were Arsenal looked like the god’s of football. I think many of us might of felt disappointed because the 2nd half was played in juxtaposition to what we saw in the first.
Like many of us, I watch a lot of footy. In retrospect, the 2nd half truly reminded me of most games that I see in the EPL from middle and lower table teams. How many of those games are simply kicking the ball back and forth up the pitch with no real passing and a lot of loss of possession as a result.
Not top quality play that we’re used to from the Arsenal.
I think that last year we would have read many complain about how we need some ugly goals instead of trying to pass every goal into the net. So, we get an ugly 2nd half and a win an away game – we need that to. To protect a lead, get some luck and win in an away game. Offset against the 1rst half it wasn’t pretty but it was enough to get the job done.
It wasn’t pretty but it was sweet and the first half was just profoundly beautiful football.
I wouldn’t call it BOTTLING but rather STUCK IN. Good job to the lads.
______________________________
OT: I heard Spurts lost because of something they ate – humble pie :)~
December 3rd, 2007 at 1:37 pm
Mazza, didn’t u accuse me of dodging the issue? I kept my mouth shut afterward on this issue. Don’t u think u should stop doing the same thing u condemn ppl of doing so yourself - dodging the issue?
December 3rd, 2007 at 1:49 pm
How exactly am I dodging the issue Andez?
December 3rd, 2007 at 1:52 pm
never mind then.
December 3rd, 2007 at 1:52 pm
@Mazza#74: I expected Arsenal to play the second half like they did the first half.
You dont think Villa would have something to say to that by any chance.. would you? It is unrealistic to expect Arsenal to walk over teams that are “weaker” than them. What about their players? Surely they would attack more as well? And if they attack — you defend and ride a spell out; surely you know that.. it isn’t rocket science…is it?
If we’d gone out and attacked and Villa hit us on the break u’d have said.. Get that numbskull Flamini and that vacuous Clichy out of here…or something to that effect…they can’t even defend a lead.
I don’t get what you’re upset about…seriously. How is it possible to play 90*38″ minutes of perfect football? Its unrealistic…then again maybe you’re just winding me up and I’m an idiot…yeah..that makes more sense…
December 3rd, 2007 at 2:04 pm
Yep Andez, dodge the issue and then when I ask you to explain yourself you….dodge the issue.
LDE, I expected Arsenal to play tactically like they did in the first half. I can’t see why that is so hard to get into your head. Villa changed their tactics in the second half so if Arsenal had kept their philosophy we would have had murdered them on the counter attack, or at least attempted to. But we played into their hands of allowing to throw everyone forward and letting them get away with it, giving them a free ride, whatever you want to call it. Arsenal played the perfect second half tactically against West Ham away earlier in the season. There is a difference between playing well and and playing tactically well. When Hleb went off of course it made things harder to implement that.
I’m not really that upset. I said two days ago that I prefer to remember that first half and the great football we played but I can’t help calling out shit when I read it.
December 3rd, 2007 at 2:18 pm
Thats the thing you see. Tactics. Thats just a word Mazza. Sitting far away that is easy to say. When you say “tactically well”; how many clear cut chances did they have? Carew header on the bar? What else? Numerous free kicks on Sagna’s wing? Berger’s long ranger stright at Almunia? Thats as close as they got…Yes teh defending looked desperate at times..I will agree; but that is our Achilles heel. In
the air defending.. Overall if you look at it..we weren’t that bad.
It is just relativity playing tricks again. You see something as beautiful asthat first half and then see the level drop so much that you feel its total rubbish when it actually isn’t. Its like that Denilson - Cesc debate all over again.Relative. Everything is relative and subjective. The only objective criteria which hence remains is .. Did we lose? Not the true picture — I agree but how else can you decide? I guess though that we should agree to disagree on this.
December 3rd, 2007 at 3:26 pm
The thing is, Mazza, your points are too stupid and ridaculous to even argue about.
Let’s put it this way - if the Villa match we BOTTLED it, let’s hope we will “bottle” our way for the rest of the season.
Danny at post 27 basically spoke the words out of my mouth. You are digging your own grave.
It really looks to me it’s more important for you to be PROVED RIGHT, than Arsenal win or lose. If you didn’t mean it this way, u sure hell gave people an impression you are.
December 3rd, 2007 at 3:38 pm
No, Andez, it seems your too stupid to even grasp anything beyond the obvious. After all, you still claim Senderos is some sort of misunderstood entity with Paoli Maldini waiting to possess his body. It’s completely pointless having any sort of conversation with you because you’re so blinkered and have such rose-tinted glasses on that you can’t see the truth in anything that goes against good old Arsenal.
As for being proved right, did I not say Arsenal would be too strong for Villa if Hleb, Rosicky, and Diarra played? So if I wanted to be proved right Arsenal would have won. Oh wait, they did win.
December 3rd, 2007 at 3:41 pm
LDE, you make several good points.
December 3rd, 2007 at 3:44 pm
yeah u did say we should sack wenger in the summer too.
December 3rd, 2007 at 4:01 pm
I said that in January 2006. I admit I got that totally wrong.
Unlike you though, I get off the fence from time to time. I’m not afraid of being wrong. I will leave the banal platitudes to you. You know the ones; I still have faith in Senderos blah, blah, Tony Adams made those same mistakes when he was eleven years old at Arsenal’s gym behind the Clock End. You’ve actually been proved wrong on Senderos time and time again Andez. I would like to see you admit that.
December 3rd, 2007 at 4:21 pm
Mazza, please pull yourself together and admit you’re wrong. As Nipuna states:
“Arsenal come back from 1-0 down to win 2-1 away at Villa = Bottlers.
Spurs lead 2-1 at home but lose 2-3 to Birmingham = Not Bottlers.”
If this is your theory then you’ve well and truly lost the plot - Stag-style.
If you knew anything about football whatsoever you would know that when you’re playing away to a top class Premiership team, they’re more than capable of raising their game and working 2 x harder and playing 2 x better. As the away team, if you have any ambition at all, you need to win ugly.
It’s clearly only your ego that is standing in the way of admitting that. This is the lat chance saloon before you get the avalanche of ridicule that’s coming your way if you persist with your daft logic borne out of arrogance and stubbornness.
December 3rd, 2007 at 4:41 pm
Mazza, did u see me coming out and defend Senderos after the Sevilla match?
And do make it clear one thing here - The only reason i came out and DEFENDED Senderos (notice here, not PRAISE, i never compared him to Maldini like u suggested I did) is because he’s an ARSENAL player. If he wears a different jersey with different club I couldn’t have cared less.
And it’s not just about Senderos. Basically i came out and defended most of the Arsenal players before, Denilson, Flamini, Diaby, Adebayor…. a long long list.
but it had nothing to do with my own ego. I defended them based on the same reason, because they are the Gunners, and I am a Gooner. So I am willing to give them a benefit of doubt.
Rose-tinted glasses? Perhaps. But what’s wrong with that? Isn’t this an Arsenal forum?
I am just a simple, regular Gooner u could find anywhere. Of course some of us would tend to be biased towards our own teams at time. Because this is OUR team. And we are not neuturals. Take ur comment to other Arsenal boards, see if you would get a different reaction than u got here?
December 3rd, 2007 at 4:49 pm
Danny T, I actually credited you with a bit more intelligence than the tripe you’ve come up in your last few posts. Your another one who doesn’t seem to understand the term “bottled”. I think MacMac explained it perfectly a few posts ago.
I said in the second half Arsenal bottled it. The SECOND HALF. Shall I say that again? THE SECOND HALF. They lost their nerve and luckily their stellar display in the first half proved decisive. In my world, being called a bottler is not that grave an insult. It’s a colloquial term slung round quite alot. On Arsenal America it seems to the equivalent of calling Michael Corleone a pussy; and it seems to be getting a similar response from a select few. Albeit in the form of words rather than a bullet in my head.
Just because someones loses a match it does not make them bottlers. Berbatov did not lose his nerve when he tried to dribble in the last minute; that’s his normal style and so therefore he did not bottle it. Larsson then scored a cracker from 32 yards. And lets remember Tottenham had ten men. Now, call me crazy, but the word bottle does really come to mind when I try to rationalise that chain of events that led to Tottenham losing. Anyway, I seem to remember you being very angry with Wenger and the team when we hung on against Villareal away in the second leg. What’s the difference between that game and Aston Villa?
And Danny, there is no avalanche of ridicule coming my way. That’s just something you dreamed up by yourself, like you did with Stag. Stag had his faults but you were well and truly on your own when you gave him that disgraceful abuse towards the end of his time here.
December 3rd, 2007 at 5:37 pm
Stop trying to redefine the term “bottler”, we all knew what you meant in the first place. You were angry with the players and angry with the performance. You expected Arsenal to sweep aside Villa in the second half irrespective of the fact they performed twice as well and made life extremely difficult for Arsenal - as they probably should have in the first half.
You went completely over the top, calling Arsenal “bottlers”, individual players “retards” or an “embarrassment”, and the team a “shambles” and the midfield “a complete disgrace”. Verbal crucifying a team that actually went away to a top 8 side, who after 4 wins on the bounce raised their game massively and yet still held on for a win.
You refer to Arsenal as bottlers, but refuse to make the same accusation about a team that was 2-1 up and cruising AT HOME to far inferior opposition, who then did precisely what Arsenal didn’t do, LOSE. Then you start making up stupid shit, like “if Carew’s header was 2 inches lower”. As for 10 men. How many times have Arsenal gone down to 10 men under Wenger and pulled off a result? Nearly every time from what I can remember in the days when players were getting sent off left, right and centre.
If the whole sorry story of your contribution to this post is not deserving of ridicule then I don’t know what is. And all I’m saying is that if you continue with this madness then you will go down the Stag road - a person who virtually everybody ridiculed at some point or other - certainly not just me. So it’s really up to you to be a little more balanced in your views, as you normally are - or at least used to be.
I’m sure there will be times when Arsenal do deserve criticism - and I will make my concerns known as I’m sure others will, but to slaughter them the way you did was completely unnecessary and intrinsically showed a naive lack of understanding about what goes on on a football pitch from time to time.
December 3rd, 2007 at 6:14 pm
The only one I regret was calling Eboue a retard. He didn’t deserve that. Gallas and Toure pussycats? Well, they defended the six yard box well but they really paid Carew far too much respect. I mean, teams like Wigan have probably handled him better than we did. I thought Walcott was an embarassment and Rosicky did hide away, especially when he let that Eboue pass go beyond him.
As for bottling, that’s your problem if you wanna go apeshit over it and build a stigma around it. Just because Arsenal lost their nerve in the second half against Villa it doesn’t mean they are gonna be bottlers for life and we are doomed. And you have to distinguish one team and one game from the other. You can’t just keep going around comparing results and saying because a team lost then they should be called bottlers. If that was the case then Derby are the biggest bottlers of all time. But they’re not are they? They’re just shit. Sebastian Larsson hit a shot from 32 yards that was unstoppable. Explain to me how Tottenham bottled that? It’s like saying Arsenal bottled it when Denny Landzaat hit that screamer for Wigan against us last season.
Lastly, did I go calling Arsenal a disgrace against West Ham in October because Dean Ashton missed a header from five yards or Ljungberg wrongly had a goal ruled out? No, I didn’t, because that happens in football. Teams create chances. But in that game Arsenal were strong mentally and did not play stoppage time football for a whole half. You see, it’s about taking each game individually and not lazily bunching them all together as if they are all the same thing. We all know Tottenham are alot better side than the table suggests, yet the results suggest they’re not. Do we base them by results or do we use our better judgment. I choose to use the latter, though someone like Andez would probably reason that Totteham are the fourth or fifth worst team in the land.
December 3rd, 2007 at 6:27 pm
“though someone like Andez would probably reason that Totteham are the fourth or fifth worst team in the land.”
Damit man. I already stopped arguing with u. so leave me alone.
For ur information, i was the one who wrote that i didn’t want Jol got sacked, as when they hired the right manager, with their resources, n the quality they got, they would go place.
so don’t make something up. thanks.
December 3rd, 2007 at 6:32 pm
You also said Jol was a crap manager even though statistically he was Tottenham’s best manager since Bill Nicholson.
You can leave me alone now to if you want.
December 3rd, 2007 at 6:42 pm
@#89 - “Just because someones loses a match it does not make them bottlers.”, Just because someone doesn’t play as well in the second half doesn’t make them bottlers either. Villa came out with more intensity that second half, and we didn’t match it, but we played well enough to hold onto the result. In my opinion, I didn’t see Arsenal crapping their pants. Give Villa some credit, they are a good side that came out in the second half in front of their home crowd and took it at us. I think many would have been happy getting out of Villa with a draw without Cesc, and RVP, especially since Chelsea lost there with a full squad. Yet we still are arguing over a win. We got the 3 points, lets move on and let Wenger sort out the second half with the players.
December 3rd, 2007 at 7:28 pm
DannyT and Andez: Count one more for your side.
The overwhelming sense when you read Mazza above is that, like Stag (during his more incendiary e-mails/postings), Mazza prefers the style, character, and nerve of ManU and Chelsea to Arsenal’s. Or, at the very least, you could only conclude from his postings that he holds those teams in higher regard than the Gunners.
What true Gooner could say he does not “give a rats ass about the result?” (see Mazza no. 28) For the past three years, Arsenal was lambasted about not knowing how to win ugly. Well, Arsenal certainly won ugly on Saturday in the second half.
It was painful to watch the second half but you can bet your last dollar that Wenger did not fail to see anything that Mazza has noted in his diatribes above. He just doesn’t have to proclaim his brilliance by calling out his players for their performance during that second half, not when they face Big Fat Sam and his usual tactics on Wednesday.
December 3rd, 2007 at 9:15 pm
Gentleman:
Let’s put this argument to rest. It’s gotten tedious. Too much ad hominem. We all like Arsenal and can agree to disagree on some interpretations.
December 3rd, 2007 at 11:33 pm
At last
December 4th, 2007 at 1:09 am
Second that. Lets move on.
December 4th, 2007 at 10:19 am
don’t know about you all… but I really would have loved the banter to go on