Arsenal’s Financially Prudent Ways (or Is Arsenal Just Cheap?)
May 7, 2008
Like most others on this site, I have been frustrated by the frugality of our favorite club and manager. Once when my frustration reached a boil, I posted an article here suggesting that the present board members were cheap and wanted to keep as much money in their pockets as possible so, by contrast, to the other big English teams, Arsenal never bought established and expensive stars.
Now, with the transfer window about to open and with news that Flamini has left Arsenal for Milan for what appears to be purely financial reasons as well as rumors that Hleb would be leaving for Inter for similar reasons (not to mention the club’s stringent 1-year policy with respect to players older than 30), I felt my ire growing again. And this only grew with talk pervading this site as well as others that Gilberto might be kept for another season simply to assist in the transition from Flamini to another “youngster.”
If last summer’s transfers are any guide, we cannot expect any real big name purchases by Arsenal this upcoming transfer window. By contrast, I look at the team likely to win the Premiership and perhaps even the Champions League, ManU. After winning the EPL last year, that team did not stand still and spent a reported 60 million pounds on Hargreaves, Anderson, Nani, and Tevez (players and depth that Arsenal would never have considered purchasing under any circumstances much less after finishing on top of the table.) No wonder then that ManU had the depth to last throughout the year and triumph when it counted most in the Premier League and the Champions League (the only 2 trophies the top teams really care about when push comes to shove).
The frustration only grows when club reps state that Arsene has as much money as he needs to spend on new players only to be followed by a statement by Wenger that he needs to be frugal and not splash the cash. This leads to speculation as to whether Wenger is stubborn and is intent to prove he can win on the cheap with his gameplan or is it that the club tells the world one thing while providing Wenger with a pittance of what it says is available to him. I certainly don’t know. So what is the story here? Is Arsenal cheap? Is Arsenal skint? Is Wenger stubborn as a mule? Is this year his last chance to do it his way as many here and elsewhere advocate? And if we don’t win the EPL next year, do we get a manager who will spend the money on established stars like Torres, Tevez, Mascherano, etc.
The answer is not really clear to me (although I really hope it never comes down to Wenger being forced out because Arsenal did not win silverware in a given year so long as Arsenal is properly competitive). But what I find fascinating is that at this frustrating juncture where one season is over (and we have nothing left for which to play) and the next season is more than 3 months away (without any assurance we will get the big-name striker, midfielder, left winger, leftback, goalkeeper, and/or name any other position that we desparately need), I go on to the Sports Illustrated website and find an article by Gavin Hamilton of World Soccer magazine titled “In The Red” that states the following regarding ManU, the team which right now we all seem to envy at least in terms of results and accomplishments:
As Manchester United prepare to face Chelsea in the first all-English Champions League final in Moscow on May 21, it might appear that everything is fine and dandy with the club’s owners, the Glazer family.
Scratch beneath the surface, though, and a very different story emerges. This week it was revealed that the club suffered a £58 million loss last year and now owe a total of £764 million to their various creditors. The accounts for the year ending in June 2007 also disclosed that United owe £56 million in outstanding transfer fee instalments to other clubs.
Most worrying for the Glazers is the news that they still owe £152 million to hedge funds at a rate of interest of 14.25 percent. With a recession threatening to engulf the world’s financial markets, the Glazers cannot find anyone willing to take on the debt at a more reasonable interest rate. The hedge fund loans were the most controversial element of the financial package used by the Glazers to fund their takeover of United. This “leveraged” buyout loaded liabilities onto a club which had previously been debt-free. Now the Glazers are struggling to re-finance.
The Champions League final will thus be a battle between the free-spending oligarch in Chelsea’s Roman Abramovich and the credit-crunched Glazer. While the English media speculate that the Russian billionaire will use a slice of his £12 billion fortune on a world-record bid for Lionel Messi, United fans must contend with the news that the Glazers only paid off £42 million of the £81 million in interest due on their debts last year. The outstanding interest payments, accrued to the hedge funds, have been rolled over, to be repaid in 2016 — or whenever the Glazers can re-schedule their debts.”
Interesting, I think.
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May 7th, 2008 at 4:34 pm
As I have mentioned previously in my blogs at Arsenal America, Manu and Liverpool have been in a fiscal crisis for the past few years due to their operating losses and inability to infuse new cash to cover these losses.
Chelsea has their benefactor in Abramovich, City now has theirs in Shinawatra, Ashley may infuse some of his millions in Newcastle as with Aston Villa and Maybe Levy with Spurs. However, these clubs are all running at varying degrees of losses and are being subsidized by their benefactors or by the sale of shares.
Apart from Chelsea who can survive as long as Abranovich does not get bored and City, If Shinawatra can get his assets unfrozen, the other clubs are in peril of being bankrupt in the near future. Fortunately or unfortunately, depending on your views, with the EPL being recognized as the most attractive league in the world and the enormous upsurge in share values there will always be some billionaire person or corporation willing to part with their funds for the prestige and notoriety associated with the purchase of an EPL club.
If clubs do not rein in their spending in the not too distant future, the EPL will have few if any British owners.
Arsenal on the other hand should be commended for taking a logical and financially sound stance while still providing great entertainment on the pitch and being contenders year in and year out.
I sometimes get very irate when all the fair weather fans repeatedly lambaste Arsene and the Board, and want us to spend, spend, spend and win now at any cost without looking at the “BIG” picture.
May 7th, 2008 at 4:48 pm
It’s quite simple. Think of it this way.
Your are trying to raise your kids properly, and not spoiling them with gifts and toys. You can afford some nice toys, but only if it’s measured and controlled so that their siblings will learn and appreciate the merit that’s involved in receiving the rewards.
Then a rich neighbor moves in, spoils their kids to the core, and never punishes them for any wrongdoing. Now your kids makes a comparison with how their neighboring kids are treated and they now think you don’t love them as much as your neighbor does for their kids.
You have two choices:
1) Stick to your principles and explain to your kids and hope that one day they will appreciate and thank you for that life lesson. But you will suffer many years of frustrations until the kid matures.
2) Break your own rules and do whatever that makes you kid happy. You get instant gratification but the long term effects can be insurmountable.
Forturnately, you kids can’t just “switch families” nor could they just leave on a Bosman or do a Webber. But you get my point.
I think enough is enough. Wenger needs to splash the cash this summer for a couple experienced players to re-enforce our squad so that we can try to win some silverware while building up the team.
I don’t think Wenger purposely sacrificed silverware in order to implement his youth policy, but his faith in players’ maturity is a bit too naive. Kids can perform but may not have the “nerves” to hang on.
We have seen this season, the ability is all there in the current squad, but we don’t have the “spine” to stand up to challenges or “injustices” that we’ve suffered this season – this is a mental thing that only comes with age and experience.
Now back to my analogy – Wenger must realize by now that Arsenal is a football club, not a family. In fact it’s not even his family – he’s just a temporary custodian. It’s great that he’s trying not to do a “Leeds” on us, but the cash should be splashed when it’s needed.
And this summer, it’s needed because the only other currency to keep players at the club is SILVERWARE.
May 7th, 2008 at 4:53 pm
Its funny that Glazer has NOT spent a SINGLE DIME of his OWN money on Man U…..yet has loaded a great deal of debt (almost 1billion pounds) on a massive club that had absolutely NO debt before he bought it.
Funniest of all, even with all their spending of 60 million dollars, remove Ronaldo from the equation and they WONT win anything.
Man U are pretty much just like Barca who also blasted 60 million – the only difference is that Barca’s “ronaldo” Messi, played very few of the matches – so couldnt save their asses.
May 7th, 2008 at 4:56 pm
That said, I firmly believe Wenger has at least 25 million in the bank. He SHOULD spend that money at the very least.
May 7th, 2008 at 5:41 pm
For me the challenge is to look at the lessons from this season and critically ask yourself what evidence is there that we will improve.
This season we had a slow-leak all season. The absences of RvP & Rosicky and the young set not firing as hoped. It got significantly worse with Eduardo’s injury in Feb.
When the heat came on in Feb who was around to respond? Who could take the responsibility to create and score enough goals under immense pressure? We know the answer, the Walcott’s and the Bendtners wheren’t good enough at that time. So why should we hang our hopes for the season on a guy like Vela?
Every season teams take steps both backwards and forwards. Nothing stays the same, ever.
the backwards…..this seasons star may fail next season (Ronaldiniho), someone’s career goes OTT (Henry), some leave (Flamini, Hleb?),a massive injury (Eduardo)……
the forwards……some youngster blooms (Clichy), an astute signing (Sagna), a breakthrough year (Hleb)…….
Count for yourself the steps backwards and forwards for Arsenal.
I believe the chairman when he says they have never turned down Wenger for a transfer. If Wenger said I want to buy so and so…..I believe he would get him, the Board would back him. That is balanced with Wenger’s ‘good steward’ approach to management. So are Arsenal cheap?……no, I think their wage bill proves that. Are they prudent? Yes, the best managed football club in the EPL, only Bayern Munich seem to have the same ’sense’.
But this off-season I reckon we need some experience coming in. My main concern is quality at wide midfield and 2nd striker. Guys who can take responsibility NOW. Probably Eduardo/Sagna type signings, not big name, but guys with the maturity to mesh into the team reasonably quickly and contribute.
I wholly agree the spine (and defensive unit) is critical – just Wenger doesn’t think that way, George Graham did. That’s why Wenger inherited the best defence in EPL history. So…….I mitigate my expectation in this regard and cross my fingers that ‘collectively’ we defend better.
May 7th, 2008 at 6:40 pm
The problem is Wenger seems to lack a certain amount of foresight in regards to the teams problems or potential problems, and he also appears too quick to sweep these lingering concerns under the carpet if results are favourable.
I had two main concerns with the team this season. One was the inability of the spine of our team to deal with long ball strategy implemented by a teams who play a high tempo game coupled with a pressing game. The other was the Wenger’s reluctance to use squad rotation- partly through not having a deep enough squad- which as we saw in 2006-07 led to our key players looking decidedly leg-weary and mentally fatigued when we needed them at their peak.
The away game to Aston Villa in late November convinced me that our team could not deal with the first concern. Villa may not have got the equaliser that day but Arsenal defended in a similar fashion against their onslaught as they did against Chelsea at Stamford Bridge. We were just darn fortunate Villa didn’t have a great deal of bodies in the box to punish our second half bottle job.
Now, did Wenger notice this obvious discomfort in dealing with high ball pressing game? And did he react to it? Nope, he didn’t. Because we got away with it he ignored the problem. Instead of addressing the issue this summer he could of turned his attentions towards it in January and Arsenal may have hung on in there in the title race or not collapsed in such a dramatic fashion.
The game at Goodison Park illustrated by second fear about this Arsenal squad’s ability to last the course. Fabregas was in a sulky mood, Hleb looked totally incompetant. In short, we looked and played terrible. This may have been due to a combination of things but it looked like fatigue had caught up with us, having just played an intensive game at Portsmouth days before. Eduardo’s brace and a strange set of events therafter meant we scampered away with a 4-1 victory. Again, did Wenger notice the lack of vibrancy and energy from the players and forsee a similar drop in Spring? Did he use the January transfer window to try and replenish our midfield engine room or creative department so to give players like Fabs and Hleb a rest to alleivate fatigue concerns? Nope, he didn’t. He instead focused on Eduardo’s great predatory instincts and turned a blind eye to the dangers lurking beneath.
So lack of foresight in a few departments cost us this year, not including lack of foresight in not catering for the obvious Rosicky extended absence, cost us the chance of following through and giving this season an identity by grabbing some silverware. Will our prudency lead to the same mistakes being made again, or will new ones rear their ugly head. Wenger’s philosophy appears to be a breeding ground for potential hamartia.
May 7th, 2008 at 6:44 pm
Kiwi, if you listened to Wenger’s responses at the shareholders’ meeting, he said we were weak down the spine and needed help in that area. Somehow on an earlier blog someone interpreted that as meaning a DM. The spine means your CB’s and DM’s so Arsene, like most of us, are in agreement.
I am all in agreement we should spend the “AVAILABLE” cash to acquire players which can have an almost immediate impact and shore up our areas of weakness, IF and I repeat IF, they are available. It also does not make sense to splash cash for someone who will not suit our needs just because we have the cash.
We keep hearing about all these available players with whom we are linked, but truth and in fact most of these are just rumors without credence. These players may not be available period or available at a much higher than suggested price.
We are all fans but we have no idea what goes on behind closed doors in the boardrooms at these clubs. In my career I have had many chances to be privy to boardroom conversations regarding acquisitions, mergers and business strategy. The final output to the media almost never embraces the true reasons, what actually occurred and what was discussed.
In our rather limited manner we seem content to make broad based decisions for Arsene and Arsenal without ever knowing the “REAL” facts.
May 7th, 2008 at 6:48 pm
I can understand Wenger’s need to not crack open the wage structure and follow the path of a team like Leeds (Neova mentions this as well above). I think it is tough for him to balance his idea of building a successful team while fighting off the huge salaries that exist out there. Although, like regular jobs different players are motivated by different factors — some by money, some need a real challenge, some need to win trophies or some are just happy to be there. There are some players who are happy to come off the bench but some need to play in the first team every game (Ole Gunnar Solskjaer & Cudicini are two names that come to mind who were/are happy to sit on the bench).
Some players can change their mind depending on which factor is more important for them. Roberto Baggio took a huge pay cut to move to Bologna so as to get playing time to get back in the national team. Di Canio took a huge pay cut so as to move to his beloved Lazio team. But at other times in their career, these guys moved to a bigger club for money or a new challenge.
Wenger’s comments about Flamini’s departure point to how he was hoping that Flamini would stick around and focus on the team as opposed to getting more money. I think the way Flamini went about might have upset Wenger as well. When Edu left the team, he left on a positive note and was given such a nice reception by his fellow team-mates when he scored a goal from the penalty spot. Edu wanted more first team football and he left on good terms. And then there was Diarra’s case. Wenger hardly sells players that fast (has he ever let a player go in under a year?) so Diarra’s attitude probably triggered that quick sale.
Unfortunately, not all players would be happy to be paid less than what teams such as Milan, Juve, Inter, Madrid or Chelsea are willing to play. But then again, not all players can make it into these teams. For those that can make it in these teams but instead choose Arsenal and a slightly less wage, that is great. I just hope the players that are there or those that Wenger will bring in can focus on the team and not just about money.
I rememeber the funny yet relevant comment made by Rummenigge when Pizarro wanted more money at Munich:Pizarro was offered a new contract by the club in Spring, though angered club bosses by rejecting it and demanding more money, prompting chairman Karl-Heinz Rummenigge to remark: “Anyone wishing to earn like Shevchenko must first play like Shevchenko.”
Regarding Man Utd’s debt, I wonder when that will catch up with them? Ferguson keeps talking about how great the new owners are in that they don’t interfere with him. But what about the fact that they took a club with no debt (as you mentioned Fred) and used the club to play their own debts off?
May 7th, 2008 at 6:50 pm
typo..pay their own debts off..
May 7th, 2008 at 6:53 pm
My GAWD Mazza, I actually agree with most of your comments (lol). However, no one but the Trainers, if they are competent, could foresee Rosicky’s injuries and if they are telling Arsene he will be ready in 4 weeks and it turns out to be 14 weeks and still counting we can’t blame Arsene for that one.
I still keep wondering about the competence of our training staff!!!!!!!!
May 7th, 2008 at 7:03 pm
Very well said SACHIN and by the way, we all make typos. A slip of the finger is no fault of the typist (lol).
Unless Manu gets a new investor like DIC they will be heading for bankruptcy within two years. Unfortunately for us, Hicks and Gillette will get wise soon and sell to a high profile foreign investor at a profit which will cover the debt. Many large corporations like DICK, sorry, I meant DIC, will do so because of the prestige, media and international exposure which is important to them.
This type of buy, incur debt and sell scenario can only happen a few times before the natural laws of economics rears it’s ugly head.
May 7th, 2008 at 7:21 pm
in hindsight it’s easy to fault wenger for a lack of foresight.
May 7th, 2008 at 7:24 pm
Not when you say it at the time.
May 7th, 2008 at 7:29 pm
CaribKid…..
I listen to Wenger more with my eyes these days than my ears. I see what he does, and has done for 10+ years, and base my judgement on that.
As for the spine……that’s jargon and means whatever a punter wants. I’ve never seen a definition but have heard people talk of the spine running thru the team and referring to the CF,CM,CB,GK…… Many people like to take that as a sign of the health and strenght of the side. If you prefer thinking of it as CBs and DM – fine.
If you think Wenger is in agreement that he needs to strengthen the CBs and DMs good for you. Time will tell. I’m not inclined to accept what he says at face value in that regard after seeing what he does for 10 years.
Even this ‘availability line’ is wearing thin. I’m not into availability, nor super super quality players, I’m into a squad with suficient resources. Are we saying there isn’t a player available to replace Rosicky? Are we saying there isn’t a player available to backup/compete with RvP? With all the players in the world, all our scouting network…….? No the answer in part is choice – Wenger makes a choice on squad depth. I am a huge admirer of his as you know. But you have to ask, when things are apparent, and repeating, why don’t we address them even if it isn’t with our 1st, 2nd, or 3rd preferred choice option.
This team/squad to me looks close, close to what we need. What a shame if we don’t back it up with sufficient depth.
May 7th, 2008 at 7:45 pm
Excerpt from the Independant:
“It will not help the mood of Arsenal supporters that it has now emerged that Wenger did indeed attempt to sign Jonathan Woodgate from Middlesbrough in the January transfer window – only to find that the England central defender was already in advanced negotiations with Tottenham Hotspur.”
I like Woodgate, but maybe we need more of a vidic type player. Woodgate is more a Rio Ferdinand type player. So I’m not desperately disappointed we didn’t sign him. Though he would have come in handy on a certain night at Anfield in April.
May 7th, 2008 at 7:48 pm
Kiwi, when I talk of spine I mean a commanding centre half and a formidable defensive midfielder. Kolo Toure nor Mathieu Flamini are the answer in my book.
May 7th, 2008 at 7:50 pm
Agree Kiwi about over-emphasis on ’super class’ players. That talk is ridiculous when you have players like Eboue and Senderos in your ranks.
May 7th, 2008 at 7:59 pm
I saw that Mazza, in January we were leading the EPL and sitting pretty well. I would find it hard to believe that Woodgate would turn us down (for Spurs) if we made a serious attempt to sign him at that time. My guess is we ‘explored’ the possibility, but Spurs were more serious.
Wenger doesn’t seem to go for the Vidic hardnut type – I can’t understand why. Successful CB combo’s seem to have the right balance – not 2 of the same.
May 7th, 2008 at 8:08 pm
All great central defence pairings have a player who attacks the ball and another who sweeps from behind. Think John Terry and Gallas/Carvalho.
Both Toure and Gallas instinctively drop off when the high ball is used and that’s why we struggle so much when teams like Chelsea go for throat. We are at the mercy of the second ball.
May 7th, 2008 at 8:09 pm
Kiwi, I thought we had the right blend with Campbell and Toure just a few years ago. Campbell could tough it out with the best until he became emotionally fragile.
Also, Woodgate may have felt he would get limited playing time with Senderos, Toure and Gallas as the first choice with Song and Djourou in the wings. He may have sought more playing time with a club that was sorely in need of someone with his capability at that position. He could also figure if he got more playing time this would enhance his overall value.
May 7th, 2008 at 8:18 pm
Figures from the Times about wages. I can’t believe we only pay out £2m less than ManUre. But if Gallas is top with 60k, it’s a miracle we hang on to certain players.
Manchester United (figures to end of 2007)
Turnover £210m Wages £91.56m Ratio 43.6 per cent
Top earners Cristiano Ronaldo (£120,000 a week), Wayne Rooney and Rio Ferdinand (£100,000) Average earners Wes Brown and Edwin van der Sar (£50,000)
Chelsea (figures to end of 2007)
Turnover £190.5m Wages £135m Ratio 71 per cent (down from 76 a year earlier)
Top earner John Terry (£135,000) Average earner Shaun Wright-Phillips (£60,000)
Arsenal (figures to end of 2007)
Turnover £177m (excluding £23m from property investment) Wages £89.7m Ratio 50.6
Top earner William Gallas (£60,000) Average earner Emmanuel Adebayor £35,000
Liverpool (figures to end 2006)
Turnover £119.5m Wages £68.87m Ratio 57.63
Top earners Steven Gerrard and Fernando Torres (£100,000) Average earners Xabi Alonso and José Manuel Reina (£60,000)
PS If Diarra goes to Sp*ds, he is a total turd.
May 7th, 2008 at 8:23 pm
Probably because we pay average youngsters way too much money and strip them of their hunger.
May explain why you see Denilson and Diaby swanning about the pitch not looking remotely bothered about anything,
May 7th, 2008 at 8:57 pm
Hmm..I am surprized that would be only 2 million less than Man Utd. If the average Man Utd salary is 60,000 and Arsenal’s is 35,000, something is amiss. On top of that, don’t Arsenal have a smaller squad than Man Utd? Wes Brown makes more than Adebayor? No wonder Ade’s agent has been making noise over the last few months.
May 7th, 2008 at 9:10 pm
although Liverpool’s average earners are also at 60,000 yet their wage is much less than Arsenal’s.
May 7th, 2008 at 9:17 pm
Thanks CaribKid @11. Yeah I do wonder if they will go bankrupt in the future. For now, it seems they are looking to splash more money in the summer. Plenty of big names rumoured with Man Utd as well.
macmac, I read that Diarra rumour to Spurs. If that move happens, I think I understand Diarra’s secret agenda. Diarra wants to beat the cumulative transfer record held by Anelka in record time. So if Anelka moved from every club in an average time of a year (there were some exceptions), Diarra thinks if he can switch clubs every 6 months, he will eventually beat Anelka’s total as Diarra can’t get some of the high wage transfers as Anelka.
Curious to see if Benzema, Ben Arfa, and Berbatov (all B’s) move this summer. It will be worrisome if one of them makes it to Man Utd. Also, where will Huntelaar end up? Probably Madrid.
May 7th, 2008 at 10:34 pm
Even AW wants to crack open the wage structure, there’s no guarantee the board would agree.
The wage structure with Arsenal has long been exist even before AW taken over.
We can say now the board should be less stringy, but let’s do not forget one thing – WHAT was the primary factor that allows Arsenal to resist the TAKE OVER at the first place? Wasn’t it because of the steady Arsenal finance being ran by the board that offered us the platform to fight the take over?
i mean, if our finanical status was like Chelsea before Roman A. how are we be able to resist any take over attempt?
one way or other. we can’t have it both way.
May 7th, 2008 at 10:35 pm
Read the stat’s with care. What exactly does average mean? Average earners……how did they calculate that? How many are average?
My gut feel, is that there is a huge remuneration range within clubs and across clubs.
A guy comes from Africa, signs a longish deal for minimal money, then eventually the club upscales his contract when it is clear others may tap his shoulder.
Clubs have to weigh a lot of factors when considering the ‘value’ that a guy brings. Are ANC players worth as much as a non-ANC player given you know ANC players will be off for a couple of months at a key stage of your season every other year? Same goes for South American players albeit in a different way.
As for the mega earners……they are relatively few and it only lasts for so long. Henry was a mega earner, but he only reached that status later in his career.
Chelsea skew everything……ignore them from a relativity perspective.
Normally mega-earners have a huge profile and play in influencial attacking positions. Henry, Ronaldo, Rooney(?), Ronaldinho…..
Even the Vieira’s don’t make that group despite their ‘value’ to their club.
The whole thing can turn so quickly……take Flamini, this time last season he didn’t exist (let’s be honest) he was offered the chance to go to Birmingham, LOL. Now you would think he was Vieira…….with AC Milan Juventus and Arsenal fighting for him. Take Adebayor, at the start of this season he was a raw player…….how much do you think 30 goals has placed on his ‘value’?
High competition, short time horizons, variable performances, injuries, wealthy owners, media pressure. This is not a science it’s an art.
May 7th, 2008 at 10:38 pm
One of the big layouts in wages for the 06-07 season was for Henry which was reported based on the Arsenal financial report as being over £10 million. Could not understand the exact reason why but that’s what Arsenal reported. The 07-08 amounts should be a lot less with Henry and Lunjberg off the payroll. Reyes was on our payroll although on loan to Real Madrid and Lauren was there for most of 07.
It’s weird and unreal to see the squad turnover between 06-07 and 07-08. Anyone wants to take a look just check out the link below.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arsenal_F.C._season_2006-07
May 7th, 2008 at 10:51 pm
Based on some detailed reports which I was privy to late last year it appears that Arsenal tends to pay their regular players better than most teams. While they may not pay their superstars as much as others they do have a solid wage structure and that’s one of the reasons why most of their players, including the “Exquisite” Eboue have signed long term deals by virtue of extended contracts.
We also tend to pay our young, potential stars a lot more than other clubs and is one of the many reasons we are so attractive to the Mannone’s, Merida’s and Barazite’s. Coupled with the fact we also provide housing for most if not all our young ones and those costs are factored into salary it’s not too much of a reach to see why we are one of the top employers.
May 7th, 2008 at 11:00 pm
Remuneration reality check – paper 101
Arsenal old boy Freddie Ljungberg now at West Ham on 75,000 pounds pw. What does that make West Ham? Prudent, ambitious, cheap, stingy, rich?
Interestingly West Ham, now want to unload him for a 3m pound payout.
A few observations. Why anyone would have paid Ljungberg big money is beyond me. Post-Arsenal he was a very very limited player (without Bergy, Pire, Henry, Vieira), what little pace he had had vanished, his body was showing wear & tear, he was always a cog in the wheel, neither a talented creator or natural finisher. I mean……how jolly thick where West Ham?
But see that signing appeals to the media and the fans and the managers and the boards of the majority of clubs. They honestly don’t look past their nose, the ‘cost’ is irrelevant, you just gotta show your seri-arse man. Buying a ‘name’ like Ljungberg is part of the game.
Now 12 months later they want to flog him….cause it was a rank dumb decision.
May 7th, 2008 at 11:19 pm
Agree kiwi. Frankly, over the years, when i look at many other clubs’ buying policy, I felt very PROUD of our own.
i think everyone knows the golden economic theory is – buy cheap sell high. apart from Arsenal, or perhaps Harry Redknapp, most of other managers went totally opposite way – buy high sell cheap.
and many of other managers’ purchase made me wonder did they actually “think” before they buy?
Darren Bent of course is a classic. virtually everyone knew it at that time it was a waste of money, even though those who rated him, no way he worth that 16 mil.
442 lately conducted an article talking about 100 greatest foreign imports to EPL. with a sidenote the top 10 flops (superstars, big money paid, waste of money), here’s the list:
1. Barthez (Man U)
2. Veron (Man U)
3. Shevchenko (Chelsea)
4. Rebrov (Spurs)
5. Kluvert (Newcastle)
6. Brolin (Leeds)
7. Poborsky (Man U)
8. Kleberson (Man U)
9. Morientes (Liverpool)
10. Viana (Newcastle)
see the pattern?…
May 7th, 2008 at 11:36 pm
Thanks Andez.
Always nice to see a bit of evidence that back’s up our gut feel.
Interesting, to see how many times ManU appear on this list.
May 7th, 2008 at 11:49 pm
Nuff said Kiwi and Andez, even Benitez has splashed more cash than Manu the past 3 years and has very little to show for it.
Time after time some of the best trades are the trades which never happened. Knowing when to keep someone and when to let them go. When and what to buy and when and what not to buy. Arsene is the master of this tactic although he has made a few boo boos himself and I would love to have someone like him working for me.
Minimize my losses and maximise my profit.
Buy low, sell high is the cardinal economic rule but it appears most managers have spent too much time playing football and not enough time in the clasroom.
May 7th, 2008 at 11:53 pm
Hamburg have failed to make it to the CL this year. Time to move for Rafael van der Vaart? Not a classical winger, but one in the Hleb/Rosicky mould. His goal scoring record is amazing – 52 in 117 for Ajax, 27 in 65 for Hamburg and 12 in 50 for Holland.
May 7th, 2008 at 11:56 pm
CaribKid #20……agreed, the Campbell/Toure combo looked good but for a relatively short time.
You may be right about Woodgate…..although again I’d be surprised if he didn’t back himself against Senderos, Djourou & Song. His only real competition would have been Gallas and Toure and for a club of Arsenals standing is 3 quality CB’s, 2 of whom are versatile enough to play other roles really a lot? I think not. George Graham carried 5 at one stage!
I think Arsenal nibbled on the line but never really bit. Now it’s easy to come out with this story as a way of showing fans/owners that we are always on the look out for super super quality players. The suggestion being – this one got away. But the truth is we never seriously tried.
May 8th, 2008 at 12:07 am
A few years ago, I remember reading an article of the players who Ferguson wanted but they turned down Man Utd. Some big names on there but unfortunately, I can’t find the link otherwise I would like to put that list together with the one you posted Andez. The article had been slanted to show that Fergie was losing his touch in attracting some of the big names to Man Utd. I am sure that article would have resurfaced again had Ronaldo not turned things around last year and Man Utd had won the title in 2007 and then captured Tevez.
Wenger has put his economic degree to damn good use at Arsenal indeed. Which is why I am quite curious to know the other players he had wanted over the last few years. But as LDE had replied to my query about that earlier, we won’t ever find out who Wenger had in his eyes.
Off topic: anyone see the Madrid-Barca game? Barca now will finish on 3rd and Villarreal have taken second place. Will there be a mass clearance and import at Barca this summer?
May 8th, 2008 at 12:15 am
Nip, van der Vaart has an amazing goal scoring record. He also seems to be central to the teams he plays in and often captains. One concern is the serious injuries he has had.
But certainly he seems to be the kind of guy that would ‘front up’ when the acid was on. This above all else is the ingredient we need.
He might even be available this summer……although unfortunately Euro2008 puts these guys in the shop window.
May 8th, 2008 at 12:36 am
off topic a bit, kiwi, of that same article, as it was talking about the greatest foreign imports to English game, the top list’s also quite interesting as well.
i dont’ really know the “definition” of the “greatest”. in terms of sheer talent, or achievement, I would definitely have put Thierry Henry as number 1 myself. with Peter Schmeichel as my number 2. but i supposed the article was talking about the overall contribution to the English game, and how the player himself had changed the English game. so they went for Eric Cantona as number 1, Dennis Bergkamp as number 2. since they were the early imports of EPL, and i can’t deny because of them, it helped to attract more foreign talents going to England.
funny now the English media, fans alike been keep blaming foreign players for their national team’s failure. yet merely a decade ago, EPL was rather similar to MSL today – only be able to attract players who’s career already started going downhill and coming to EPL for a last indian summer. the best talents of the world would opt for La Liga or Series A.
today, the English clubs are dominating the Champions League. EPL, as a league itself, has come a long way. Shouldn’t they be grateful to what those johnny foreigners have done to their game?
Anyway, here’s the top 10 of 442’s choice – Greatest Foreign Players in EPL
1. Cantona
2. Bergkamp
3. Henry
4. Larsson (Henrik)
5. Zola
6. Schmeichel
7. Ardiles
8. C.Ronaldo
9. Klinsmann
10. Vieira
other Arsenal players in the list:
19. Pires
33. Ljungberg
37. Anelka
42. Limpar (Anders)
46. Fabregas
51. Overmars
55. Petit
91. Kanu
May 8th, 2008 at 12:42 am
Just thought about this:
The CL qualifiers will have Arsenal, Liverpool, Barca, Juventus, either Milan or Fiorentina, either Werder or Schalke, Celtic or Rangers. And this after quite a few players will be tired after Euro 2008. The Italian season usually starts a bit later as well, so depending on who Juve or the 4th place Italian team get, it might be a bit tricky for them as they might not be match ready.
May 8th, 2008 at 12:59 am
No doubt Andez, the EPL has blossomed with the influx of foreign talent.
Guys like Cantona and Bergkamp paved the way……..Klinsmann, Henry, Zola and Ronaldo………brought pizazz……..Vieira & Schmeichel served their clubs well and where the best in the position. Ardiles….that’s going back a while!
Would anyone really want to be watching a league full of Taylor’s huffing and puffing and breaking legs with gay abandon?
May 8th, 2008 at 1:27 am
True, Kiwi, VDV’s injury record can rival RvP. 19, 26 and 18 league games in the last three seasons (34 in Germany).
May 8th, 2008 at 1:41 am
That said, perhaps we’ll pick him up within our price-range because of the injury record. And if we had RvP, Roicky and van der Vaart SURELY all 3 can’t be out at the same time.
I feel we need an injection of high octane fuel……like an Overmars. Something to add spice and goals to the mass of pitter pat players we have.
May 8th, 2008 at 1:50 am
Hmm, I would prefer to avoid people with proven injury records. That’s why, I wasn’t disappointed when we didn’t sign Woodgate. You never know when he will crock. Same applies to those rumors linking us with Kirkland as GK.
May 8th, 2008 at 2:05 am
Agreed Nipuna, I’ve been a critic of crocks!!
May 8th, 2008 at 2:27 am
agree with nipuna as well. since we been complaining so much of Rosicky and van Persie’s injury problem, Woodgate had a track record throughout his career, regardless of where he went – leeds, newcastle, real madrid. not exactly been playing every game for Boro neither. so i m glad to let Spurs taking that risk.
i like Woodgate as a defender as well, but i m pretty sure ppl would jump on his injury problem just as much as they did with van Persie and Rosicky, as if the players wanna get injuried themselves (football is fun, who wanna undergo treatment instead of playing the game?), and complain that what a bad piece of business AW had made.
May 8th, 2008 at 2:34 am
We could write a book titled — How to read the Arsene language. And get it all wrong
May 8th, 2008 at 3:03 am
‘We were close this year, but we did not win and what I expect from my team is that, if you are a winner, you say ‘let’s come back next year and win’,’ the Arsenal manager said.
‘If our players are not capable of doing that and just want to walk out for bigger contracts, for me that would be the biggest disappointment.
‘If you are a winner you say ‘you beat me now in a game but give me a chance to come back and beat you’. That’s what I expect of a team.
‘If they cannot do that then it means I was wrong completely in my whole judgement of this team.
‘That would be the biggest disappointment for the club – not only to not win this year but to not be capable of coming back together.’
Wenger makes a passionate plea to keep his team together. To the outsiders, it might look like a desperate measure. In some sense, this message can be turned around and made like a passionate plea from the fans to Wenger himself. Here goes -
‘We were close this year, but we did not win and what I expect from my manager is that, if you are a winner, you say ‘let’s come back next year and win’,’ the fans said.
‘If my manager is not capable of doing that and wants to continue buying teenage potential players, for me that would be the biggest disappointment.
‘If you are a winner you say ‘you beat me now in a game but give me a chance to come back and beat you’. That’s what I expect of a manager.
‘If he cannot do that then it means I was wrong completely in my whole judgement of this manager.
‘That would be the biggest disappointment for the fans – not only to not win this year but to not be capable of coming back together.’
May 8th, 2008 at 3:44 am
I have a different definition of being fans – you support your team, no matter what players u got in ur team. And support your manager, no matter how he buy or sell.
Too passionated to blind your sense? basically supporting a football team is the most senseless thing in the world. What for?
to me it’s just like a kind of faith, for the love of the shirt. and anyone wears the red and white shirt we should back then up. There are plenty teams to choose supporting for. Nobody got pointed a gun to support Arsenal.
Those who believes in buying, spending can feel free supporting Man Utd, Chelsea.
Those think Wenger’s youth policy is wrong and don’t wanna wait a few years to see them grow can feel free supporting other clubs as well.
but if one decides to stick around, u better stand firmly behind the manager, the team, the club. As that’s the way Arsenal been running the team under Wenger.
one thing i firmly believe, if a fan starts developing a habbit of questioning every manager’s decision, every single thing a manager said, then it doesn’t really matter who’s the manager. Cos u won’t be changing the habbit even when AW is gone, and someone else takes over. You will be just keep doing the same thing.
May 8th, 2008 at 4:45 am
At the start of this year we entered unchartered waters.
Henry was gone……almost all the remnants of Arsenal Mk II had gone.
It was truely a new period.
After the year what lessons can we learn? I reckon Wenger will be asking that question himself.
For me there is nothing unfanlike about asking this question too. It’s what makes being a fan fun.
The other thing is……you just can’t wait around in football until your team matures. A club with Arsenals stature and aspirations HAS to win. I’m not being impatient, just calmly asserting a fact.
What if we don’t win soon?
1. Players will go. The ‘loyal’ fanbase remains Andez its the players who go!! Players are less likely to leave a winning team – but the opposite is also true. After all, the ultimate for a player is to win trophies. Look even at Gerrard – you can see he is making moving noises even though he is red thru and thru. Henry left us after the CL disappointment. Fabregas will leave us if we don’t win. So whilst we’re waiting for the greenies to rippen the rippened ones will be leaving – a vicious cycle would occur.
2. Crowds will drop. Fans love winners. Fair weather fans especially love winners. We have 60,000 fans paying expensive prices for tickets. A proportion are fairweather and they support Arsenal because it is ‘in’. Will they pay if we keep failing? No.
3. Financial constraint. Reduced revenue has a flow on effect in everything….I won’t even go there.
4. Pressure on Wenger. Each season that goes by with no trophy, cranks the pressure up. Currently Wenger runs the show with a rare degree of Board confidence based on his very good record and the stylish football we continue to play and a stable mature Board. But each season without a trophy increases the pressure from the media and fans. There will come a time when the worm turns.
5. As points 1-4 happen the objective of being successful becomes even harder.
This isn’t a prophecy of doom – far from it. I’m just reiterating that Wenger doesn’t have an infinite amount of time to ‘build’ this side. From every corner he will be pressured for trophies…..the players, the fans, the media, the industry, and eventually the Board themselves.
May 8th, 2008 at 4:48 am
If you consider how close we were to winning the Championship and the Champions League this year when we weren’t even supposed to compete then I think we’ve done well. Add to that the fact that the only money we spent was the Henry sale money to buy Sagna and Eduardo then we’ve done exceptionally well. We didn’t overpay and got two very good players. I don’t know how anyone could possibly suggest what we’ve done as being cheap. It’s definitely prudent.
The only problem I had with Wenger going into this season is not having adequate cover for Rosicky. It proved significant as Tomas was injured for half the season and not having a productive player in that position clearly weakened us.
Adebayor has been fantastic this season. Thirty goals is an incredible return. Add to that, I guarantee he’s every CB’s least favorite striker to play against. Who wants to play against a striker that big, that strong, that fast, that good in the air, and that works that hard? What other striker has that package? Sure, his goal form had a valley at a bad time but what striker doesn’t have a dip in form? You can’t choose when these things happen.
What Ade needed was a fit striker to help him carry the load. Eduardo was helping until he got broke down. van Persie even came back from injury too early to try and help us preserve what had become a fabulous season and unfortunately broke himself down some more. Who plans to have two of their four strikers unavailable for most of the season? All of that and we were still so close.
We don’t need to splash cash on big names. Wenger wants a new CB as he’s given Senderos plenty of chances, and a creative mid to cover/compete with Fabregas and a questionable Rosicky. I think we need another striker too. Like I said boys, we were damn close and didn’t spend but a small fraction of what the others spent. We’ve got Bendtner, Walcott, Denilson, and Song a little more experience. We’ll have Vela, Traore, Barazite, Gibbs, and mabye one or 2 others helping even more. We’ve got a good thing going here.
Flamini was a fool to leave as there’s no telling what’s going to happen at Milan.
May 8th, 2008 at 5:41 am
I used to be a big fan of Football Manager a few years ago…still play the game whenever I get some time on my hands. What I notice about the people that play the game..is you can separate them into 2 distinct groups. One group like to start straight at the top with big clubs like Man Utd or Arsenal…and then spend big money..make big money transfers..and end up winning titles.
And then there is the other group who like to start at the very bottom……the conference north/south to be exact……start with debt ridden clubs…..small squad of part time players and then try and become a success. I loved this style….no transfer money…trying to scout and unearth gems….sign up out of contract players and so on. A proper managerial challenge….invariably would take 2-3 years just avoiding getting relegated before things started to improve..and then comes the bigger crowds…some transfer money….money coming in from ticket sales and so on. Was a slow and steady process….but satisfying at the end of the day.
f Wenger was ever a Football Manager fan..i know which style he’d pick
That is probably the difference..why some fans elect to support Wenger through thick or thin ….and others who are constantly questioning whenever a bad patch happens.
That is also why I don’t care if Arsenal went trophyless for 3 years…..the fact of the matter is they are improving every year..the people who take trophies to be benchmarks of success…don’t see improvement ..since it’s either a Yes or No for them. To the others it is a constant process of improvement based on a philosophy which should eventually bring success.
And to tell you the truth….when Arsenal win the title or the UCL with this team and pholosophy..i’m going to rate team much much more than if Wenger had spent 100-150million and revamped the whole squad to see Arsenal winning 5 years in a row. Of course, you would also have some folks who would prefer the 5 titles back to back ..and that is the reason why we continue to have debates on this site everyday
May 8th, 2008 at 5:48 am
Kiwi, can’t say ur points are wrong, i just don’t see the necessary for nipuna once again made the meal out of AW’s recent interview.
as far as i m concerned, Wenger’s statement was responding to the report that Hleb’s leaving because the club lack of trophy.
and i totally agree with what AW said, if you are a winner, you try to come back and win it the next season, not by running away and jump ship.
example, 2001, we finished runner up in the league. beaten in the FA Cup by Liverpool with some questionable referee decisions. How Henry and co. responsed? note here – they too found themselves in a similiar cirumstances – the club went 3 years in a row finished as runner up in the league. get beaten in FA Cup final, and UEFA Cup final. in short, they too had won NOTHING in 3 seasons.
but Henry, Paddy and co made it as a personal mission to try and come back winning the FA Cup next season. in the end, they won the double. that made them the winners.
if hleb really leaves because he feels Arsenal lack of trophy, he to me is a loser.
May 8th, 2008 at 6:00 am
I see where your coming from Andez.
I think the majority of us are Arsenal thru and thru and have followed the highs and lows.
You raise an interesting point though. I do wonder how long Wenger has to ‘deliver’. I’m not getting silly about it, but there is a point at which the pressure will get too much. Wholly hypothetical, but if we don’t win anything over the next 2 seasons what hapens?
This is why I was really annoyed that we didn’t ‘go for’ the Carling Cup…..say what you like about the comp, it’s a trophy. And players love the taste and it just takes the edge off the lack of trophies.
May 8th, 2008 at 6:01 am
…..agree with you on Hleb. As an aside, I was annoyed that he hasn’t even apologised for getting sent off in such a retarded manner.
May 8th, 2008 at 6:17 am
“but Henry, Paddy and co made it as a personal mission to try and come back winning the FA Cup next season. in the end, they won the double. that made them the winners.”
Arsene Wenger signed 4 players in the summer of 2001 – Campbell, Wright, Gio and Jeffers.
Campbell played a huge part in the 02 double, Wright was our GK for all FA cup games (except the final) and Gio played in some key games during the run-in (including the one at Anfield where he was unfortunately sent off).
Is it unreasonable to ask Wenger to be signing players who are not teenage youthful potential?
I am not making a meal of his interview. It was part fun, part serious. Some of us follow Wenger blindly, others believe in him but also ask questions. Can’t see why either way is right or wrong.
May 8th, 2008 at 6:19 am
As for Hleb, I can’t see how he is asking for tophies. What did he win before coming to Arsenal? I think that was nothing. Arsenal made him the big player that he is now, not the other way around. I have always maintained that Hleb has a big loser mentality.
May 8th, 2008 at 9:29 am
I made the point on the previous thread that when Wenger spent big money, he got big money in first. When he bought Henry, he’d just made twice as much selling Anelka. When he bought Wiltord and Pires, he’d just sold Overmars and Petit. The point is the money to buy big was only made available by selling big. To even afford Sagna and Eduardo, we needed the sixteen million from the Henry to Barcelona deal, which has proven to be good business. The financial constraints have always been there. Also consider that those strings have been tightened even more in recent years to facilitate our move into a new stadium.
May 8th, 2008 at 1:23 pm
More Wenger hints at his summer shopping list:
“I will try to buy, maybe in the defensive area and one on the creative side of the game as well because we had some players, important players, who were out this year,” he said.
“When there is a problem in England, people say ‘you have to buy’ – but you have to consider as well the development of your players internally.
“It isn’t just down to money because we have bought players for nothing and they became world stars. It is as well down to the quality of the scouting, the quality of the work in training and the quality of the development in the players. I believe much more in that, working in an intelligent way to make a player improve.
“If we lose, people leave the game and say ‘Wenger you must buy a centre forward’ if we haven’t scored, or they want a central defender if someone has made a mistake. But you have to accept that the team can be developed.
“This team made 68 points last year and this year 83. That is 15 points difference and in between we lost Thierry Henry and we lost many, many important players during the season. So you cannot say the team has not developed. Now the target for next season must be to make 90 or 92 points.”
So a CB and an attacking midfielder!
May 8th, 2008 at 5:26 pm
So according to agents Hleb is going and Adebayor wants a substantial pay rise.
Oh to be a manager!
May 8th, 2008 at 5:35 pm
Andez,
I see your point and the passion…
I think there’s a difference in just plain criticizing a team and those who’ve made constructive criticism. I know it’s not like Wenger would be reading this board and taking recommendations from us, but it gives us supports something to talk about besides the usual “tip of the ice berg” stuff.
I’ve enjoyed reading some of the insights provided here and I think that’s what this forum is really for.
It’s easy to support a team that wins every game, every trophy. It’s harder to understand WHY.
I think with Arsenal, we have a different situation. We seem to have the ingredients and potential to be champions, but still missing something here and there. Some would debate it’s down to luck, while others’ point out we didn’t prepare for the rainy day (plan B) when circumstances turns against us (injuries, suspensions, player fatigue).
I think even loyal supporters can inquire as to the logic behind decisions of the club / manager / players. Supporting a club doesn’t have to be blind faith unless you want to treat it as such.
Of course, had we hung on to the league title race we wouldn’t be talking about this now. But that doesn’t mean there weren’t deficiencies in our team this year.
May 8th, 2008 at 5:50 pm
If only Harry Redknapp read this (in response to his accusation that it would take any club 150 million wuid to keep up with the so-called ‘Big 4′.
In a nutshell, look at how many of Arsenal’s players are in the top 100 paid footballers in the world… then look at how many players from LFC, Chelsea and MUFC are, and look at where Asrsenal finished this season.
Spending money doesn’t guarantee squat. Good management and spending smartly do.
May 8th, 2008 at 5:57 pm
Well, as we have seen, Arsenal spend only two million less than United on wages a year so that the wages argument doesn’t really wash.
May 8th, 2008 at 6:08 pm
Based on Arsene’s comment quoted @ 58 (i.e., “this year 83 [points]“, Arsenal has apparently won the Sunderland game before it has been played. Now, I have always known Arsene Wenger was a genius but I did not know he was a prophet as well.
May 8th, 2008 at 6:12 pm
With respect to Arsenal v. ManU’s spending (see Mazza @ 62), even if you take the Times’ wage figures as the gospel, the point I draw from the published numbers in the Gavin Hamilton piece is that ManU is clearly living on the edge financially in a manner that Arsenal is not.
May 8th, 2008 at 6:25 pm
The thing is though, you know nothing is ever going to happen to United regardless of how much they spend. Ferguson and Gill are not as stupid as Peter Risdale. United have probably got it all worked out and realise that even if they are in the red, the debt is easily sustainable for a club of their financial magnitude.
Wenger’s insistence on doing everything by the book is admirable although I still think he uses the black and white argument too much. He knows there was more scope to do more than he has in regards to players coming in and out and that’s why he likes to use doomsday scenarios to keep the sceptics away.
May 8th, 2008 at 6:29 pm
Villagegunner, Wenger said in that interview that he hoped for 83 points this season.
May 8th, 2008 at 6:43 pm
What Wenger/this Board has done is incredible…..for five reasons.
1. They’ve fashioned Arsenal into a club with a playing style that exudes real panache & romance. When people (fans, media, players) talk about good football they often refer to Arsenal. It’s like the two go together. For those who have followed football longer than the Wenger era that is quite some feet of achievement.
2. At the same time they’ve developed the clubs infrastratucture into that of a mega-club. I’m talking primarily the stadium and training facilities. Without these the club would always have the look of a typical biggish EPL club….like the Evertons and Aston Villa’s. But by developing these to world-class standard it places Arsenal on a footing with the Real Madrids, Barcelona’s, Milan’s, Juventus, even ManU’s.
After all, to a fan its the stadium that gives the whow factor and to a player it’s both the stadium and training facilities.
3. Superstars. Pre-Wenger, ‘modern’ Arsenal didn’t have a great swag of superstars. Sure we bought a few here and there (Charlie Nicolas) but they didn’t come in clumps (except the Brady/Stapleton era that we couldn’t hold on to) and they often looked failures because the team overall didn’t match their potential.
But with the Wenger era, we now ‘make’ superstars! We make players that the mega-clubs covet. The poxy advances of RM and Barca are backhanded compliments to our production facility. Whilst having the superstars is great, what is equally important is the ‘culture’ this is producing. Arsenal is now known as a club full of superstars, and even better, one where young players become superstars.
4. We’re financially balanced. You know what I mean.
5. Finally there is the small matter of winning. Wenger has mixed all this around with winning with great style (albeit the last 3 years has been a bit thin!).
Strategically we are on a level that very few other clubs are. In England only ManU compare. In Spain only RM and Barca, In Germay BM. In Italy AC Milan & Juventus.
We just need a little extra quality/experience to bring the best out of this squad’s potential, and take a bit of the weight off their shoulders during ‘the clutch’……what the heck is ‘the clutch’…..is it an American term?
May 8th, 2008 at 8:29 pm
@ Mazza: “”The thing is though, you know nothing is ever going to happen to United regardless of how much they spend. Ferguson and Gill are not as stupid as Peter Risdale. United have probably got it all worked out and realise that even if they are in the red, the debt is easily sustainable for a club of their financial magnitude.”"
————————————————————
Gill is just trying to make the best of an already bad situation. Glazer failed to pay about half of last year’s interest – there is NO way that is a good thing. So the debt is actually increasing and increasing and there are penalties.
The thinking they are going on is that Man U is a massive brand, and if it is about to go bankrupt, some rich guy would come in and buy. And to be fair, that is what is most likely going to happen.
The only problem. If our (the American) economy tanks as it is consistently threatening to do – yours (the British) would go under as well. And that would ripple across the whole world. TV rights money will go down seriously, people generally would spend less on luxury items – like football. And the millionaires out there wont want to blast over 2 billion of their money in such a climate.
And even when the economy goes under the banks never forgive debt!
May 8th, 2008 at 8:33 pm
Mazza@65
Fergie does not give a F@@@k what happens to Manu in the future. He is all about winning and will take any money given to him in order to acquire players and compete with Chelsea. If 2 years down the road they go bankrupt he will retire in the secure knowledge he has placed himself as one of the best ever managers with numerous titles to prove it.
If they go bankrupt and a Consortium buys them out he knows he will retain the job until he chooses not to. Manu does have one more buyout left in them and they will continue to march forward under different (probably more foreign ownership) until the economic bubble bursts.
Most teams do not have that chance and the stark reality is operating loss = debt, more debt= higher debt service, higher debt service= higher operating losses, higher operating losses = higher interest rates, etc, etc. In the end, those who are not financially prudent will go down the tubes.
May 8th, 2008 at 8:53 pm
Will, if Arsenal go down the tube we’ve always got Usmanov and kroenke to come to the rescue. As undesirable as that may be. However, kroenke seems like a decent sort. Just a hunch.
May 8th, 2008 at 9:03 pm
Now is the time for Arsenal supporters to “stand by their man” and hope that Arsenal come through this period of destabilization. Arsenal are not carrion yet. Our only real problem are pea brained players who can’t see the big picture which is to have a cohesive stable team evolving toward winning. I cannot recall one player leaving Arsenal (Ljungberg, Pires, Reyes, Diarra, Henry, Flamini, Hleb) claiming they have to go elsewhere to win trophies because Arsenal lacked ambition. The latest two in fact have been strangely silent when players usually rush to squeal to the tabloids about the ‘nobility’ of their departure. I for one will not miss any player who chooses to leave. Don’t let the door hit you in your ass.
I believe there is money to spend but how much and for who are the questions. Edelman’s departure may be a good thing on that front. Apparently Birmingham’s Karren Brady was being lined up as the replacement until her arrest. So it goes.
Can we sell Stoke a slightly used Swiss international CB who is slow enough to fit right in with their long ball game. I’ve also got a nicely aged World Cup winning Brazilian DM who can score the odd goal that I can let you have for 3mil.
We were poor last year and finished with 63 points. This year, we were suppose to be supplanted by Sp**s and we’ll finish with 83 points (Sunderland, please don’t make me laugh). Now we have money grubbing rats abandoning the good ship Arsenal and hell-hounds baying at our heels looking to pick off more of our tasty morsels. We should be winning the league next season if the progression holds up.
I am amazed that clubs like ManU and Liverpool can continually spend big money with the debt that they have. I hope they are now ‘trapped’ into spending in order to keep up ‘big-club’ appearances. I just hope that running their clubs are like taking out a sub-prime mortgage and one day their creditors will want cash and not collateral. Did someone say Leeds United?
May 8th, 2008 at 9:09 pm
CTPA@71 your words are prophetic.
“I am amazed that clubs like ManU and Liverpool can continually spend big money with the debt that they have. I hope they are now ‘trapped’ into spending in order to keep up ‘big-club’ appearances. I just hope that running their clubs are like taking out a sub-prime mortgage and one day their creditors will want cash and not collateral. Did someone say Leeds United?”
This will happen sooner than later unless they are bailed out by one of the philanthropic businessmen who need a new toy to play with.
May 8th, 2008 at 9:32 pm
Villa’s Barry wouldn’t be a bad signing. 27 is a bit old for Wenger but he does buy in that age with wide-midfielders and I think given the teams inexperience he is worth a real shot.
He seems a steady stable sort, captain material, and we need a bit of that given that some of our seniors are a bit emotional….like Gallas.
He seems reasonably robust & fit.
He is comfortable in the EPL so we don’t need to worry as much about the time to adapt.
I like his versatility (LB,CB, LM), so he can cover other roles if needed.
He’s English, which in his case is a good thing.
He will cost a fee, but I like the ’statement’ it would make to Fab, that we want to assist him with a serious replacement.
Remuneration……well, Diarra and Flam have gone saving us maybe 75,000+ pw, Bert can go, maybe another 40,000pw so we save say, 120,000pw and pay maybe 60,000pw, so still end up 60,000pw better off!
Song could do a role there, but on balance, Barry is worth a real go.
May 8th, 2008 at 10:34 pm
Hleb is definitely going.
“Alexander is preparing to make one of the most important moves of his life,” Shpilevski [his agent] told the Belarus paper Pressball. “He is leaving Arsenal even though they want to offer him a new long-term contract and better conditions. Only time will tell if leaving is the right decision, but there’s no way back now. Everything will be cleared up in the next two weeks.”
May 8th, 2008 at 10:42 pm
Meanwhile
“Arsenal are preparing to enter the race to sign Gareth Barry and are also “considering a bid for £12 million rated Roma midfielder Alberto Aquilani.
May 8th, 2008 at 11:09 pm
If Hleb does go… it will be a loss, because he is an integral part of what we try to do offensively. He is excellent on the ball, and we all know he loves to pass the ball, and is very unselfish. He clicks well with Cesc… and he draws attention from defenders. Does he score? No. He doesn’t much. But he’s a very good player.
I am sure the HLEB sucked brigade will be out in force, and you folks can wax poetically about how he was greedy, and wasn’t that good, and we can easily replace him… and if he leaves he’s satan or judas or somewhere in between.
But, if we have to replace both Hleb and Flamini, it will just mean a longer adjustment period if we bring players in… cohesiveness in the squad is important, thats why Wenger wants to keep the team together for the most part.
I hope he stays, but it looks like he’s outta here as well. Gotta get paid… and he’ll probably get a very good deal elsewhere.
He wants to win trophies. OK. Who doesn’t? But depending on where he’s going, he might have a better chance elsewhere.
Barry to Arsenal. I just don’t see that one happening. Liverpool will out bid us, and/or throw in players… thats a more likely spot for him. I think he’s a good player, and a good age… some experience would certainly help. I just can’t see Wenger doing it.
May 9th, 2008 at 12:00 am
CaribKid@69 is spot on. Fergie doesn’t give a damn what happens to ManU. All he cares about is that his legacy should be bigger than Matt Busby. That’s one BIG difference between him and Wenger. Wenger actually cares for the club. Got to respect that.
Kiwi, I doubt Wenger will go for Barry. He has seen him so many years and did nothing. Wenger is not the types who goes for a player who suddenly became good. You know what I mean.
Of course, we should keep try to Hleb as much as possible. If not, we have to move on. The one thing I want Wenger to do if these players leave is get players who are better, not necessarily the same. What I mean is not look for another Hleb, but a better player in terms of all round ability.
The downside of this is that Arsenal will have to alter their style of play a little. But that always happens when players leave (Henry, Vieira, etc.). It may also result in an adjustment period, but that would happen irrespective of who is signed.
May 9th, 2008 at 12:01 am
Ramos is preparing for life without Berbatov. Where will he move? I can see only one destination in England – ManU.
May 9th, 2008 at 12:18 am
With the exception of Man U, I can’t remember reading any other club associated with Berbatov? Madrid don’t want him? not suited to their style? For a change, it is different to read rumours that a Madrid player (Ramos) might be courted by someone else (Chelsea). Considering how much grief Madrid have given to Arsenal over the years, nice to see some club other playing their game, although Chelsea is the only other club to play the money bidding game. The figures reported around Ramos are staggering. I would be surprized if he goes for that much.
May 9th, 2008 at 12:22 am
If Hleb is desperate for a move, it might be wise to invite Inter to make a bid. Considering that they are the only big club in Italy who weren’t cheating, you can expect them to play fair. Of course, it won’t be what Wenger values Hleb, but it will more than the Webster clause. We can then reinvest that money into our transfer plans.
May 9th, 2008 at 1:04 am
What are the odds on Riijkaard being Chelsea coach next season?
May 9th, 2008 at 2:22 am
Stag, the only fault of ur “players have right to go for big salary elsewhere” theory is – u have significantly undermined the “professionalism” of the likes Dennis Bergkamp, Patrick Vieira, Theirry Henry.
all those players had chances to move long before their eventual departure. Vieira in particular had clubs interested in him throughout his entire Arsenal career. And before year 2002, we finished three years in a row trophyless. Vieira was already there. Sure he could think the same way as Hleb and off to somewhere else so that he could earn big money and win trophy easier right?
And had he done so, would you still admire him that much? And had him done so, he would not have been part of our legendary 2004 invincible side. Looking back, his decision to stay didn’t really backfire on him did it?
May 9th, 2008 at 2:31 am
@neova #60. yes, i think it’s definitely easier to support a winning team.
i can’t say i been enjoying how things going the past 3 seasons, but it did bring me back “something” i think i had lost for a while during the year 2002-04.
i can’t explain what this “something” really is. but i can tell the difference of watching Arsenal today from watching Arsenal 2002-04.
i had a humble beginning as a Gooner, or i should say Arsenal had a humble beginning when i just started supporting them. so i treasured every goal, every victory instead of every trophy (trophy was more like a dream to me those days). and i did record all the goals/matches i could get on TV those days, even some boring 0-0 draws. as long as it’s an Arsenal match, it’d do for me.
enter 2002-2004, all a sudden,i couldn’t believe what i had seen with my eyes of what been happening at Highbury. Not only Arsenal was winning, but winning with such a style. Just like watching brazil. In fact, it’s BETTER
May 9th, 2008 at 2:36 am
@neova #60. yes, i think it’s definitely easier to support a winning team.
i can’t say i been enjoying how things going the past 3 seasons, but it did bring me back “something” i think i had lost for a while during the year 2002-04.
i can’t explain what this “something” really is. but i can tell the difference of watching Arsenal today from watching Arsenal 2002-04.
i had a humble beginning as a Gooner, or i should say Arsenal had a humble beginning when i just started supporting them. so i treasured every goal, every victory instead of every trophy (trophy was more like a dream to me those days). and i did record all the goals/matches i could get on TV those days, even some boring 0-0 draws. as long as it’s an Arsenal match, it’d do for me.
enter 2002-2004, all a sudden,i couldn’t believe what i had seen with my eyes of what been happening at Highbury. Not only Arsenal was winning, but winning with such a style. Just like watching brazil. In fact, it’s BETTER than watching Brazil.
so i started to take things for granted. feeling like even if it’s a 2-0 win it wasn’t really a big deal. we should have blown away oppositions week in week out 3-0, 4-0. Games often were over by half time. and i rarely felt nervous prior to any match.
in a way, the Gooners during those days were not REAL. what we been experiencing those days was not real. how many fans had a similar mentality like that?
now the hunger, desire to see our team lifting trophy once again is back. and stronger than ever, especially after what happened this season, with some doggy referees decisions, and some horrible defensive mistakes.
we want REVENGE. if our current set of players have any PRIDE at all, they should try come back next season stronger than ever mentally. to win back something they should have won a year before.
those who wanna run away, jumping ship, let them to. cos they are not the winners. cos quitters are NEVER winners. no matter what excuses they would give you. and we don’t need players of these soft in our side.
May 9th, 2008 at 2:37 am
http://www.teamtalk.com/football/story/0,16368,1766_3540811,00.html
#2 Out the Door.
If this turns out to be true, I will be quite disappointed. One of my favorite players in the team who I thought was a lot more committed to the cause. I’m not as disappointed by the loss of the player as I am by the fact that it is a player who I thought is integral in the shaping and growth of this team. I felt he realized his importance and was up for the fight, committed to the cause, willing to win trophies with a team that has class and incredibly ability.
I hope that this is just a rumor…
May 9th, 2008 at 3:13 am
What Arsenal need at the moment is a signing. Right now, the press are having a ball. Flamini gone, Hleb all set to go, Ade demanding a huge pay hike, Cesc not sure, etc. What would lift the spirits at the club is a signing. Doesn’t have to be a super star, but a good player would do just fine. Make a statement. I am pretty sure Wenger is working on it. With Euros, he would prefer to do business before rather than after.
May 9th, 2008 at 3:18 am
If you think of it, Henry coming back may not be a bad idea.
At first, it seemed like we needed a CB, a winger and possibly even a striker (with Eduardo out and RvP always injured). Now Flamini is gone and Hleb could also leave. That puts a lot of pressure on Wenger to find replacements. Suddenly, a striker is not a priority anymore, although it may still be a necessity. Henry could fit in perfectly.
The only problem is EGO. Henry will have to take a big pay cut, will no longer be the primma donna and will get a shorter contract. Don’t see it happening but you never know.
May 9th, 2008 at 4:02 am
agree nipuna. Henry often strikes me as an emotional character. He can only perform to his best when he loves the place, and feel being loved by fans. when he said he has become an Arsenal fan, maybe it’s only one for the press, but i do believe there are some truth in it.
if he’s willing to play a Bergkamp role, doesn’t mind the rotation, not being the main man anymore, and would come out the bench when called upon, there would be perfect.
but i understand it’s more a wishful thought. problem not just with Henry, but how Cesc, Ade the likes are going to react, after publicly saying Arsenal had improved because of the departure of Henry early of the season. hard to mend the bridge right now.
as for the Hleb saga, i just hope he makes up his mind early. the Flamini thing at least got soft out very early, so AW could plan for an alternative. if Hleb wants to leave, he better f*ck his sorry ass out of here as early as possible.
May 9th, 2008 at 5:57 am
If Hleb moves to Inter and Mourinho takes over from Mancini, what are Hleb’s chances of regular football? I guess the increased money will be quite useful then.
May 9th, 2008 at 10:05 am
Stag@76: Yes, Hleb leaving would be a loss without question. But there is a middle ground between viewing it as another sign of the apocalypse and an act of utter betrayal. Which is that Alexander Hleb had wonderful qualities but was not a figure of talismanic ability and stature for Arsenal. In other words, like every football player, he had limitations, serious limitations which have been cited by many before and I need not recite here. This is not Christiano Ronaldo leaving ManU, Figo leaving Barcelona at the height of his career. This is the departure of an extraordinarily creative and adept midfielder that many have stated plays out of position on the wing, that does not shoot anywhere near enough even by his own admission, that is not a potent defensive player, and that has not won a trophy anywhere else. That said, it is still a big loss if he leaves. But let’s not go to extremes on either side of the argument when analyzing his departure. He is not Cesc Fabregas.
May 9th, 2008 at 10:46 am
In the context of the style of football this team plays, and how important Hleb is to it, I would not put Hleb far off Fabregas in terms of importance.
As Wenger said in is Arse TV question time last night, this is the only arsenal team he has had that can go to Anfield and Old Trafford and really play the beautiful game. The 2002/2004 teams used to shut up shop when they played the big boys and were frequently incapable of playing their best technical game agains them. Hleb and Fabs and when he plays, Rosicky, are the only reason for this added feature to our game.
That Villa away game, without Fabregas, just illustrated how vital Hleb is. In that first half Arsenal’s level did not drop offensively at all without Fabregas because Diarra was adept at feeding balls through to Hleb and that’s all Hleb needs- someone to find him in his little pockets of space. He does the rest.
When Hleb doesn’t play, and Fabregas is present, Wengerball goes down a notch in every department bar the odd extra shot from a Walcott or Diaby.
Wenger wasn’t really bothered by Flamini. He quite rightly feels differently about Hleb.
May 9th, 2008 at 10:51 am
Village…
all players have their limitations… and we’ll be fine without Hleb. He’s not Vieira or Henry… but he’s another piece to our puzzle. We lose Flamini & Hleb… and now Adebayor wants a BIG pay increase.
Hleb is not Cesc… no shite… who is…
but if he wants a massive pay increase in a year or so… do we let Cesc go too?
What do you do now with Ade? Sign him to a big pay increase… or let him go… because we don’t play with the pay scale?
Good and Great players expect to be PAID like it.
They don’t care about the clubs wage policies, when other teams are willing to pay them what the market will bear.
Andez, its within the players RIGHTS to go for big money. Their career can end in an instant. Thats why we LOVE and RESPECT those special players that sometimes take less to stay with their clubs… it doesn’t happen often in sport today…
I bear no ill will towards a player going for the money… or going in general if they want… its a free market… and it works for the teams as well. They make big money on selling players… its not a one way street.
May 9th, 2008 at 10:52 am
Hleb is nowhere near Fabregas in terms of end product.
Yes, with only Fabregas in there we probably wont play “top-class”, “judges-lining-up-to-give-us-ten-out-of-ten” football, but he can look up, make one pass and BOOM a goal is scored. He has the HIGHEST assist in ALL of Europe!
Hleb helps with the pretty football, PRETTY FOOTBALL WINS SHIT!
You continue to mention pretty football – but did Man U play pretty football in ANY of their major matches? If you dont score on several “beautiful” moves it is a fucking waste of energy.
And stop mentioning that Villa game. Fabregas didnt play and Hleb played. And we played glorious football right? But how many shots on goal did Hleb have in that game?
Am sure with Fabregas in there, we would have played a bit poorer BUT won.
So enough with the Hleb fellating.
May 9th, 2008 at 11:03 am
Wenger should stop begging Hleb – and stop leaving in the delusionary world that today”s footballers give a fuck about loyalty. He wants to go, demand a transfer fee from Inter of about 10 million. If they dont agree, report to FIFA.
After selling off Hleb, out with Rosicky. No point being loyal to him either. Not only is he injury prone, the moment he becomes fit he would be doing the same as Hleb.
If Hleb goes, so should Rosicky.
The key, Wenger MUST, MUST, MUST buy at least THREE attacking midfielders/wingers or two wingers and one striker as replacement for both of them. No two ways about that.
Random reports say Kranjcar may be available for 4 million. If so, get him!
Get Arshavin for about 8 million.
Then get one more, maybe Diego or Queresma or some other speedy Gonzalez type for 10 million.
Overall that is 22 million.
Look for an underated Vidic/Sagna type CB from Germany or Serbia or wherever for about 5 or 6 million.
Then tell Hleb to go fuck himself, while paying Rosicky off his contract. No hard feelings.
If Adebayor wants to be a dumbass, then tell him to score 30 again next season then we give him 80k. If he doesnt agree, sell him to Inter for 15 mill and get Eto’o.
Wenger should stop expecting loyalty. He should be RUTHLESS and fast in getting in replacements. Cole, Hleb, most players are just all the same, this aint the 80s.
May 9th, 2008 at 11:04 am
Stag, your theory to me is like – say, a girlfriend of ours met a guy who’s richer, who could offer her a better living, so the girl left us for him.
if u think of it from the girl’s point of view, she did nothing wrong, she got every RIGHT to look after her best interest. Afterall, every girl also has a short span of life while she can attract guys as well.
but from our point of view, how do you see this girl being? Would you be telling yourselves yes she got every “right” to leave you for a richer guy? To me, she’s a bitch.
So if Ade wants to leave too? he can also f*ck his sorry ass alongside Hleb outta here.
the funny thing is – if they both leave, all the debate the past year about Hleb Vs Adebayor became quite pointless!
anyway, though Arsenal has a salary cap of our own, i m pretty sure there are sitll plenty of players who would love to join Arsenal.
May 9th, 2008 at 11:12 am
You are bit obsessed with shots aren’t you Fred. I’m glad that Wenger doesn’t see the game the same way, we would have eleven Frank Lampards on the pitch trying to score goals off people’s backsides.
This team, with Fabs and Hleb running the show, came pretty darn close to winning the league. If we had your beloved end product player playing in Eboue’s position or a spastic defence, we would have gone even closer. So that ‘pretty football’, as you like to dismiss it as, came very close to coming through for us and were far more impressive against teams like United than Lyon were or Roma were. And yet people fawn over Ben Arfa and Mancini and all these direct players.
If your team balance is wrong, and you can’t hold the ball for sufficient periods, unless you have a great defence you aint winning shit and having direct player on the wings mean sweet f.a.
May 9th, 2008 at 11:22 am
I agree: Hleb gives us that extra disruptive element–his dribbling can scramble defenses when our passing game is proving too timid.
Doesn’t sound like Wenger’s giving in on him yet. But how’s he going to make him stay if he doesn’t want to?
Come on, Alex, don’t be such a douche!
May 9th, 2008 at 11:26 am
Where are those tranny hookers when you need them? Wenger shouldn’t blanch at resorting to blackmail.
May 9th, 2008 at 11:36 am
Another point of paying the players what they asked – Guess where the money actually is COMING FROM?
Guess why big clubs like Chelsea, Man U are reknown for high ticket price? Man U forked out big money for Tevez, Owen H., WHO’s the one ACTUALLY PAYING for them?
And why everything related to the club you’d have to PAY for it these days? Merchandising, team shirt, Arsenal books etc…. and logging onto Arsenal.com., if you don’t wanna pay for anything, you got virtually NOTHING out of there.
International fans do not need to pay the ticket watching a match. but you’d still need to pay for the TV surcribtion. The higher running cost a club have, you can be sure the next time they would ask for bigger money when comes to TV right negotation. So be ready to pay more, wherever you are in the world.
Arsenal could have easily broken their wage cap. Why not? just charging the fans more, not as if the board members have to come up with the money themselves.
that’s why i also feel funny when Chelsea fans welcomed their big name signings with open arms, yet at the same time complained about their ticket cost! Get real.
May 9th, 2008 at 11:44 am
Andez, a ticket to see Arsenal is the most expensive in England, if not the world.
As Myles Palmer said, Arsenal fans are paying the most money in the world to watch the world’s cheapest team. Okay, slight hyperbole from Myles as per usual, but you get the point.
May 9th, 2008 at 12:01 pm
because of the stadium. again, WHERE’s the money coming from to build the stadium?
the club is carrying a loan. and WHO’s the one paying out the loan in fact?
now imagine a few big money signing, to go alongside big salary for our players, it would take a millionare to go watch Arsenal live.
May 9th, 2008 at 12:02 pm
Myles Palmer is an idoit. He must have thought the stadium basically built by itself, or the board paying for it.
May 9th, 2008 at 12:07 pm
i forgot the point out another thing – u guys saw those mascot, the little kids players holding players’ hand marching out before the kick off? Some clubs actually CHARGE for them. with Everton charged them 1.5k GBP per person. Chelsea as well, Roman A. saw the need to recop some fund for his big signings. what better than to charge the kids.
May 9th, 2008 at 12:12 pm
No, am not obsessed with shots, Hleb is obsessed with NOT shooting.
Not scoring is understandable. Not trying is criminal.
I agree more with Wenger on most points than you ever do…so no point trying to pull that.
Wenger should just get over this whole hippie idea that if you give a player creative freedom and give him lots of playing time in a nice atmosphere, then that player will automatically be loyal to him. That is an idea of the 90s.
If Hleb wants to leave, then he should be gone already – rather than wait 2 weeks. I couldnt care less. When Diarra wanted to leave, I felt he was impatient and maybe shortsighted, but I knew the guy was a no-nonsense, cynical, “winner” type player that doesnt have time to play games – so I could understand where he was coming from. With Hleb, its like whatever get lost.
This is the same loser Hleb that Wenger showed faith in/massively blundered by leaving him on the pitch in the CL final while taking off Pires – the only player who could have saved us in that match.
He should go now – and Wenger MUST make a few moves before the end of the month – before the dailies blow this all out of proportion.
May 9th, 2008 at 12:17 pm
Andez@60
I like the revenge bit. But seeing how the same squad said “we’ll win it for Eduardo” and seeing what actually happened is quite hard to imagine if there is, if any, “revenge” mentality in them.
Flamini and Hleb may have left for money, but they also don’t seem to be a “fighter” than wants to go one step further for the club for next season.
Watching how the squad handled adversity doesn’t give me much confidence. Instead of using adversity to build a “siege” mentality, we looked like a bunch of whiners pointing out all the decisions that went against us. While i agree we’ve been short changed on several major decision, i think the player let it get to their heads too much.
I’m curious to know what’s the difference between the ManU squad and ours. Technically we’re no different, but mentally it appears we’re lagging behind.
Is this purely due to inexperience or the type of characters that each respective manager has bought into the team? I’ve always classified ManU players as mentally proud/strong/calm and with great determination, and Arsenal players as technically gifted and stylish (at least during the Wenger era). Maybe we need some character injection into the team like a good old Viera/Adams type just to lead the charge.
Wenger has pointed out that we are “mentally” tough and have come from behind on several occassions for a result is a bit misleading in my mind. I think it was purely down to our squad who kept doing the same thing over and over until the opposition either made a mistake or lost concentration and we punished them. Against tougher opposition like ManU or Chelsea, we weren’t able to come back.
To me, a real sign of mental toughness is to be able to put a bad result behind you and start fresh. United has lost more games than us, but they never went winless in more than 2-3 games while we are susceptible to long winless streaks… happened this year, in 2004/5, and 2002/3 when we lead the league and eventually lost it.
I think it’s time for Wenger to buy a “character” player, preferably English. I have a feeling too much “group think” (french mentality) needs a shake up.
I miss the good old days of the famous English back 4. We might have been boring then, but there was always a belief and players always got stuck in.
May 9th, 2008 at 12:34 pm
Basically, Wenger is too much of a dreamer. He behaves in an utopian way, but unfortunately the world does not. Look at this statement -
“Every club should have to deal with its own resources and should be forbidden to have any other income than natural resources,” he insisted. “It is realistic because all the rest is false competition.”
Quite right, one might say. But in the real world (not just football), there are lots of companies, firms, industries, etc. which run purely on their benefactors money. Of course, they could go bust sooner or later. But there is no rule saying that everything should run with their own income and natural resources. Football is no different.
So morally and ethically, we might be doing the right thing and I can definitely understand why Wenger stresses it every time, but I don’t see how he can point to others as being wrong. That is not correct, in my opinion.
Same thing applies to contracts. Wenger is too much of a idealist. He expected Flamini to sign, but hey in a real world, people don’t. He expects Hleb to stay because he showed loyalty in him. Quite right, I hear you say. But unfortunately, that’s not how it works.
As I said, if Mourinho takes over at Inter, do you think he will play Hleb regularly? Do you think he will be patient? Do you think he will understand Hleb not shooting and running into blind alleys? No way, Hleb will soon find himself warming the bench. Maybe the extra Euros will be useful then. Hleb should think properly. At the end of the day, it’s his decision.
May 9th, 2008 at 12:35 pm
understand ur point neova, i miss the old back 4 as well. but i think they are the dying breed these days.
the old back 4 were top notch professionals. Adams wrote in his book one of his regrets during his playing days was he settled too easily with the contract GG offered him. and didn’t make a fuss out of it.
and because he’s the captain, the higher earner at the club. so when it’s his teammates’ turn went negotiating a contract, GG often pointed out Adams saying Tony only earns that much, u lot shouldn’t have asked for more.
weird enough, none of the back 4 asked to leave.
i don’t think just because of it’s an English player it necessary means fighting spirit. It used to be. Not sure about now. Gerrard, Rooney, Terry aside, i don’t see too much of a fighting spirit with too many English players these days. Or else England wouldn’t have failed so miserably in Euro 2008.
The fact that we failed to cope with Liverpool, Man U’s come back in CL and League was more like some comical mistakes at the back then lack of character ourselves.
remember Arsenal had fought hard at Anfield to actually took the lead in dying minutes (in agg.) against Liverpool. blowing away within the next 30 seconds had more to do with lack of concentration than lack of fighting spirit.
same with the match Vs Man U (away), when ur captain decided to give away a silly, totally unnecessary handball few minutes after u scored also had little to do with fighting spirit. those were the stupid mistakes.
consider how thin our squad being came the end of the season, i think Arsenal had shown enough strength in mind. to me, they just simply ran out of steam.
remember this is virtually the same side that did very well against Liverpool and Man U last season. in fact, grabbed a double Vs Man U, with two crucial goals scored late in the game home and away.
A mentally weak side could not have possible coming from 2 goals down with 10 men to beat Bolton away. Against Blackburn in Carling Cup as well, again won it by 10 men.
but mental strength could only carry u that far, when u got so many players out injuried. i m sure other teams would find it equally difficult had the same circumstance happened to them late in the season.
May 9th, 2008 at 12:38 pm
http://www.arsenal.com/article.asp?thisNav=News&article=491279&lid=NewsHeadline&Title=Wenger+confirms+Rosicky+to+miss+Euro+2008
Rosicky’s super strange injury continues. Might as well give up on him.
May 9th, 2008 at 1:46 pm
I am in a state of shock that the final game of the season is not being shown here AT ALL. I am sitting in my office and guessed that due to all the matches being simultaneous Arsenal’s game would not be one of those shown live. The fact it is not being shown at all by either FSC or Setanta is shocking. I can’t remember a week when between them they haven’t shown all the matches. I guess everyone else had figured this out some time ago but I haven’t been on this site for a couple of weeks. Wow. This really sucks…..
May 9th, 2008 at 1:59 pm
Has the wage disparity between Arsenal and other clubs always been like this or is this just something that has happend post Abrahmovic and his money splashing ways ? If the wage disparity is a recent thing (past 3-5 yrs), then expect Arsenal to be a breeding ground for other rich clubs to poach from. I think it is real hard to be loyal with the amount of money being thrown in players faces these days, plus most of the agents would be twisting their players arm to take the big pay checks so that they get bigger cuts. Players only have X number of years to earn as much as the possibly can, so its quite easy to see why they will go for money (for future financial security) and give feck all of a thought to loyalty.
Also, does anyone have any idea of the financial fallout of winning the EPL vs finishing 2nd, 3rd, etc. Similarly is there any monetary gain from winning the CL ? I am wondering how much transfer cost ManU and Chelsea have covered with their EPL titles.
May 9th, 2008 at 2:35 pm
When since do we believe all the rumors coming out of the Press. Yes, I am sure Ade is asking for a raise based on this season’s performance. I am also certain that Arsene would be looking to raise his wages and extend his contract without being asked. Arsene has done this with Clichy, Eboue, Fab and a host of other players and that’s why only Flamini was unsigned.
Take note that contrary to what I have heard in the news, Flamini was offered a new contract the previous season which he turned down because he did not want to commit due to lack of playing time.
It was also widely reported in the news that Flamini had counter offered Arsenal at £144,000 weekly. FICTION. Ends up he is being paid under £65,000 at Milan and he was offered £55,000 by Arsenal.
Ade asking for £140,000 is pure speculation and should be treated as such before we try to condemn and castigate him. In my world, you are presumed innocent until proven guilty.
Hleib now seems like a lost cause. I gave him the benefit of the doubt when it was said he had a secret meeting with Juventus or Inter Milan (forget which one) earlier in the season. Started to suspect all was not right when he slapped a player in the face for no reason to be carded and be out for the season. Suspicions became more evident when instead of staying to support his teammates he flew to Germany to watch his old team. Final straw was watching him laughing with Flamini during the game last week, minutes before the Flamster sneaked out of town for his medical with Milan.
Again, contrary to popular belief, Hleib does not hold all the exit cards with his buyout option. Because he has two more years running on his contract his buyout would be subject to arbitration to determine amount, which is typically market value. His buyout clause is also dependent on percentage of games he played for team and a host of other factors which do not make it easy or clear cut for player to leave without proper renumeration to the club. Arsene can let him go on Arsene’s terms if he wants or play hard ball and keep him for next season or trade him to another club of Arsene’s choice.
However, I am of the opinion that if he wants to leave we should trade him immediately so we have time to get another player in time to be acclimatized as much as possible before the start of next season.
Flamini leaves, no problem.
Hleib leaves, no problem
Flamini and Hleib leaves togethet, BIG problem.
You just can’t lose 1/2 of your starting MF and believe that new players, regardless of there talent level, will slot in without the team missing a beat. One of the main factors for the excellent start to this season was that we had a cohesive unit with only Sagna being new to the starting squad and few if any injuries. Although we lost Henry, Adebayor had a full season under him and all the other players were accustomed to each other. Eduardo was slowly worked into the lineup during the course of the season and was not really effective until the latter stages.
Most of the other teams had numerous off season changes or early injuries and it took a while for them to be at their best.
May 9th, 2008 at 2:42 pm
Ade speaks out in a BBC report.
“I am very happy here,” said striker Adebayor. “Reports which suggest I have threatened to quit are rubbish.”
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/teams/a/arsenal/7392283.stm
May 9th, 2008 at 2:58 pm
The article about Ade wanting a pay raise in the daily mail http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/sport/football.html?in_article_id=564936&in_page_id=1779&ito=1490 has the following quote: Despite claims from former chief executive Keith Edelman that the manager has a pot of gold at his disposal, it is thought Wenger’s hands are tied in the transfer market, largely due to the crippling cost of their two-yearold Emirates Stadium.
All that could be solved if the club were to accept the help of Russian billionaire Alisher Usmanov, but chairman Peter Hill-Wood and director Danny Fiszman say no.
Doesn’t that sound like a bit of muck raking on the part of Usmanov?
May 9th, 2008 at 3:01 pm
A few telling excerpts from Arsene’s interview with the press corp at the Emirates. You can read the whole conversation at http://www.arsenal.com
“The rest are all under contract. If anybody wants to buy a player he has to call me. I can give you my number if you want because maybe some ignore that I have a phone.
“What is unbelievable is I’m sitting here [at the press conference and it is] like we have killed all the players. Yet when I go to my office I have 220 calls from players who want to come in.”
It has been suggested that Hleb may employ the new Webster clause and buy out his own contract.
“That is not as simple as it looks,” retorted Wenger. “And you should not forget that what players can do to us we can do to them.
“The Webster clause is not easy, you can’t come in next day and buy out. There is no rule that says what it is all about.
“You have to go to a tribunal and then to FIFA and if you don’t agree with FIFA [you] have to go to ACAS. It takes a lot of months. And you can be banned for the whole period if it is not done in a proper way.”
May 9th, 2008 at 3:48 pm
Someone said “The personal defeat by human beings is constituted by the difference between what one was capable of becoming and what one has in fact become”. This is what Hleb exemplifies. Such a waste of talent, if he wants to leave, let his ass leave.
May 9th, 2008 at 4:25 pm
Agree groovehouse. Slap a 5, 6 or 7million pound price tag on him, let an Italian club or Stuttgart buy him back & be done with it.
May 9th, 2008 at 11:00 pm
Look on Manu’s financial plight in part of article below:
“LONDON (AP)—Manchester United had a $113.4 million net loss in the fiscal year ending last June 30, despite winning the English Premier League title.
Revenue rose 21 percent to $409 million but the team owes $1.5 billion to creditors, including $109 million in transfer fee installments on players signed by Alex Ferguson, according to accounts released this week by Red Football Joint Venture Ltd.”
May 10th, 2008 at 4:43 am
The weirdest thing to me is – among all the Premiership side, Arsenal gotta be the best run club, in terms of careful budget planning, sensible purchasing policy. Ensured the club being the only big club realistically be able to fight off a take over bid.
yet we are always the one under criticism. the media, fans alike keep knocking on our spending policy.
the most ironic thing is – if a club spent big money and bought themselves a flop, the media love occassions like that and couldn’t wait to jump on the player and the club, and made the meal out of it. Schva, Darren Bent etc.
that’s why being critics are so easy – just sit there and talking about nonsense. they can never be wrong. they are always right. because they are the only one who can have it BOTH WAYS.
May 10th, 2008 at 6:52 am
What is the difference between Ashley Cole and Hleb? That Hleb didn’t meet Mancini and Moratti but just a few Inter officials?
Why doesn’t Wenger ever talk to the players after such incident? If he has enough evidence to report Inter to FIFA, he surely can fine and penalise Hleb. On one hand Wenger has in the past admitted that contracts don’t mean much. At the same time, he claims Hleb is going nowhere.
I mean, what is the point of keeping a player who is clearly plotting a move behind Wenger’s back? Call him into your room and ask him to issue a statement like Ade. Otherwise, fine him for eating ice-cream in Milan. Do something.
May 10th, 2008 at 7:04 am
how u know he didn’t DO anything to Hleb? would he tell the press i have fined Hleb? would Hleb tell the press the boss just fined me?
i dont recall AW ever said contract doesn’t mean much. i recall Wenger said it’s in a player’s responsibility to HONOR the contract. cos nobody pointed a gun on u when u signed.
anyway Hleb’s not a kid, and Wenger’s not a school principal. he treats his players like adult. and an adult who has any dignity should know he should honor his own contract. AW himself has always honored his contract throughout his career, i guess he expects the same thing from his players.
but if his players wanna act like spoilt kid, just give them the rope and let them hang themselves.
May 10th, 2008 at 10:13 am
Anything to these Ben Arfa rumors? If so, does anyone know anything about the guy?
May 10th, 2008 at 10:59 am
Nicosian, I wouldn’t pay too much attention to rumors at this point. I mean, how often has there been a rumor and then Wenger goes and signs someone no one has ever heard of? I haven’t seen Ben Arfa play, but lots of people on this site talk him up.
May 10th, 2008 at 11:27 am
I realize that, but this one seems to have more credence than the usual tripe. I mean, I figure if a dyed-in-the-wool skeptic like Arseblogger seemed to be vouching for it, there might be something to it.
May 10th, 2008 at 11:27 am
I watched him the other day versus against Sedan. He is very talented player, who is direct, but alot of his moves break down due to him lacking a certain amount of composure. That’s why I played him down a bit the other day. Arsenal seem to have alot of those players and he has that same raw look about him.
He probably hasn’t got as good a left foot as Reyes but he is better in every other department such as balance, dribbling, and a general understanding of the game.
Him on the left wing and Hleb in the hole would be very interesting.
May 10th, 2008 at 11:33 am
Lyon look set to replace him with Pjanic of Metz. I would personally prefer him. He is great talent and is comfortable playing the Hleb role so our style could remain the same. He is looks destined for greatness and looks more polished at 18/19 than Ben Arfa does now.
May 10th, 2008 at 12:19 pm
Ben Arfa is a Vela type, left footed, blessed with pace, skillful, young, but is more defensive and is able to play attacking midfield, wing, set up role behind striker and striker. Both have one thing in common, they are still the unfinished product and have not really been prolific scorers at the highest level. As with Vela, Ben would need time to settle into the pace and physicality of the EPL.
Nice to have, but do we need another maturing youngster at this time or someone more tried and tested at this level. Looking at our squad next year the only experienced veterans we have are Gallas, Toure, Gilberto and maybe Hleib. Really think we need some more “spine” in the team and would welcome the addition of a few seasoned players.
May 10th, 2008 at 12:35 pm
and that exactly is arsenal’s problem….with “experienced” veterans like gallas, toure, gilberto and hleb, its clear why the entire team is led into a chicken-hearted path.
wenger should make sure any player coming is not some stroppy, cowardly type.
May 10th, 2008 at 3:54 pm
Bad news (at least from this fan’s viewpoint), FansFC.com reports the following:
“I want to stay at the club,” said Gilberto. “I enjoy being at Arsenal – the people, the atmosphere, the football, everything about it here. I don’t know if the club have received any offers.”
Talk about going backwards. Arsenal would be taking 3 steps backward if Gilberto is the starter at midfield along Cesc next season.
May 10th, 2008 at 4:50 pm
i agree….it would be back to the days of 68 points per season if gilberto starts with fabregas again.
May 10th, 2008 at 8:03 pm
ARSENAL NEED TO SUCK IT UP AND BY SOME BIG PLAYERS THAT CAN STEP IN RIGHT AWAY AND PLAY NOT ONES WE HAVE TO MAKE IN TO GREAT PLAYERS! I DONT LIKE SEEING MY TEAM IN 3RD AND 4TH
May 10th, 2008 at 9:27 pm
Gilberto for Captain!!!!!!
haaaaaaaaaa.
I hope he stays.
Andez!!
A player can have his career ENDED in one tackle.
What about the girlfriend??! She isn’t going to die is she?
So girlfriends don’t leave guys for better guys??? Are you serious. Of course they do.
If you work at a job, and a great offer comes in… from another company, and your company says… well, we can’t match that… or give you any more benefits, but we’d like you to stay… believe in us??!!
what would you do?? They could still fire you next year.
You take the better job, with better benefits… you owe it to your FAMILY… and your SECURITY.
If you have made a lot of money already in your career, then YES, you can stay for less because you like it… but I don’t think HLEB or FLAMINI are filthy rich quite yet.
May 11th, 2008 at 5:53 pm
you talk like an utter retard all the time.
so a 10% increase in salary in another company is more important than how much you enjoy your job?
in your opinion, vieira, henry, pires and bergkamp are all incredibly stupid or naive for sticking it out with arsenal and creating something beautiful.
to stag, flamini earning 65k at milan, possibly playing in the uefa cup and possibly sitting on the bench is better than earning 55k at arsenal, in the champions, starting and playing expressive football. just for an additional 10k. its not that they offered him 100k or something.
stag, you are just an idiot.
July 1st, 2008 at 9:44 am
well i sometimes get fustrated when i players like senderous make basic errors and think if only we had better defender and as for strikers we seriously need a couple of decent strikers walcot seems to be playing as a midfielder an is developing late de silva looks good but i didnt get to see enough of him make my mind up and the rest of the strikers i dont rate that highly . so i lay awake at night worrying ,we need a goalkeeper, 2 defenders 2 or 3 midfielders 3 strikers and that was last season its so fustrating when you see what a small squad we get but then i think prudence is the way forward theres a lot of clubs that have got financial problems look at the manu`s an liverpools with their american owners (nothing against american owners ) at least we are still in a stable position .