[Two separate questions by GoonerRob & arsenal904]??????
??????If you could ask Arsene a question….. by GoonerRob
Don’t ask me why, but yesterday I found myself daydreaming about last summer’s transfer season. More specifically, Bacary Sagna. I wondered what Arsene saw in him that nobody else happened to see. Pace? Agility? Stamina? Football acumen? Or merely a piece to the puzzle that happened to work out? No doubt we have a wonderful worldwide scouting network and Arsene has pulled off some real gems.
So my question (or questions) for Arsene would be: When you send your scouts out, what instructions do you give them? What are you looking for? When looking at a player, do you just look at him as a player playing a position? Or are you already brainstorming another position for him to play? I have Thierry Henry in mind when asking this question. (While at Monaco, Wenger did play TH as a winger, and his ability to play wide contributed a lot of assists while with Arsenal.)
Anyway, if I could spend some time with Arsene, these are some things I’d like to pick his brain about. How about you?
Who’s to lead our boys??????? by arsenal904
Who should the captain be next season?
96 Responses to “Penny for your thoughts”
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May 17th, 2008 at 1:32 am
did u think arsenal would do so well this season? who was ur fav player in ur time at arsenal? i think the captain next season should be fabregas hes shown that he can lead this season
May 17th, 2008 at 2:25 am
The captaincy is a BIG question. Cesc is an obvious candidate, but is he already overloaded? What will happen to Gallas? He is not like Gilberto to take it lying down and we don’t want to lose a good player. Arsene has a tough choice.
May 17th, 2008 at 2:26 am
My question to Arsene would be - Apart from footballing attributes, do you consider the mental strength of players when signing them? If yes, how do judge it in such young players?
May 17th, 2008 at 3:54 am
nip, i think AW paid a lot of attention on a player’s mental strength. in fact, i think he pay lot of attention on a player’s character - whether he’s mentally tough, or whether he’s a team player, but most importantly, whether he’s a good professional.
of cos, sometimes u can’t get it all. especially when u have to take the players’ actual football ability into consideration. there’s no perfect player who got them all.
watching AW for a decade, i get a deep impression the soft of players he love are the good “professionals”. i believe that’s why he kept giving players like Senderos chances. And Toure, Clichy, Song, Gilberto the likes he either sticks with them, or giving them chances whenever he can.
when AW first took over Arsenal, i think he was trying to get rid of the old back 4. u can tell from the players he brought in during his early days, Petit, Grimandi, Grade, Upson. Then later Vivas, Silvhno… there were many defenders. but i believe the old back 4/5’s tremendous attitude that impressed him, and he eventually stuck with them until their legs were gone.
another early sign was when he got rid of Ian Wright and Paul Merson, yet kept Ray Parlour. Merson in particular, was far more skillful and talented than Parlour, but i think AW perferred Parlour’s attitude far more than Merson, who was troubled by personal problems at that time.
in terms of “attitude”, you can tell from a very young age. cos attitude rarely change over years. If you are a positive mind, you always remains positive. if you are a negative mind, you like to moan about everything. just look at how things going on this site. 4 or 5 years, it’s always the same set of people who love to moan.
take Ashley Cole. off the pitch, he’s a rat. but as a player, he’s a very aggressive player. that i saw from the first game he played in a friendly. it’s the same with Kolo Toure.
there are some young players, you give him 10 minutes late in the game. When they come on, u immediately can tell their “attitude”. Kolo, for instance, he didn’t really care. 10 minutes, or 90, he played like the game was still deadlock, and he had to fight for everyball to make a difference. some other young lads though, u saw them coming on, not seemingly getting too excited, probably though let down by only be given 10 minutes, and wandering around the ground.
it’s not that difficult to tell who got a winner attitude. even by training, by talking to them.
May 17th, 2008 at 7:56 am
There is a big difference between having the right attitude and having the mental strength to be a winner. Kolo gives his all in a game, no doubt. But I wouldn’t categorize him as being mentally strong. A mentally strong defender wouldn’t have panicked in the Babel penalty incident.
It is not easy to give a metric for mental strength. But if I were asked for one, I would say this - FA Cup or CL final penalty shootout, how many in this team do you trust to take a penalty and score? Toure, Clichy, Hleb?
Remember 2005? Lauren, Ljunberg, RvP, Cole, and Vieira. It doesn’t matter if you are a defender or striker. They all stepped up and scored. That is mental strength. I read somewhere that Edu was supposed to take the third one but backed out. I think he chickened out because he wasn’t strong enough. Up stepped RvP, even at young age of 22 and slotted in the penalty.
I have submitted an article on mental strength. I hope it is published and we can debate more.
May 17th, 2008 at 11:55 am
The majority of our players are mentally WEAK: Toure being up there, Hleb, Senderos, Djorou, Almunia, Gilberto, Eboue, Hoyte, Denilson, Gallas.
Thats a large chunk!
May 17th, 2008 at 12:06 pm
I think AW sees more in a player than all of us on this site put together. That said and even given he looks at mental strength; it is awfully tough to judge a person’s mental strength unless he has been through failure. The younger you are the tougher it is. The only real way you can possibly analyze mental strength is when you are down in what you do , you know what you have to do to be up there and you do it. The people who do it time and time again are the people who are mentally up there - They are the ones who have “bottle” is you like.
So Nip to answer your question I think Arsene does look at mental strength but it is very hard to get it right all the time. Its quite similar to a kid being a star at 16 above everyone he ever plays but then sliding down the path and being a “nobody” relatively speaking at 21. Mental strength is quite the same - only I think it comes later than earlier for most unless you are of course Cesc Fabregas who has played 200 games at 21. I can gurantee you that the lead slipping due to a lack of “bottle” .. while true was probably what we should have expected and what DannyT called before the season started..its just that the overachieving artificially raised the expectations a bit too much and now we want more players in…in multiple positions though I might not be required.
Kolo has bottle,courage and a lot of mental strength. He has carried the defense for so long and hasn’t been much worse than our “outspoken” captain who has had a mediocre season at best, if you look objectively. As for the Babel incident — well it wasn’t a penalty irrespective of whether Kolo panicked or not…just like the Clichy one wasn’t against Birmingham. I think Kolo will be fine , I’m just worried about his in the air defending. For someone who has such a fantastic leap he is quite poor. But then he is also King Kolo.
@Andez: I agree about the winner bit. However its not exactly the same as mental strength IMO. I read a beautiful quote the other day — Most people have the will to win but only few have the will to prepare to win.
Penalties are big lotteries. Gerrard, Scholes and Lampard have missed more for England and chickened on the big stage multiple times, does that make them less winners than they are? Andriy Shevchenko the gladiator fluffed a penalty in the CL ..what does that mean?
Captain?? You know what I’d do? Sell Gallas wherever , buy this dream centre back from wherever and put him in with Kolo. If there’s no dream CB go with Kolo n Sendy and make Kolo captain. I’m not sure he is really as lousy as people make him out to be mentally.
On a side note here’s some nice news:
http://arsenalanalysis.blogspot.com/2008/04/eduardo-on-course-for-earlier-than.html
May 17th, 2008 at 12:33 pm
Gallas ain’t mentally weak. You don’t score- with perfect technique- against Man United in the last minute unless your mentally strong. Or do you stand right behind Peter Cech on a corner and calmy nod home against our nemesis, Chelsea. Even that winner against Wigan was massive.
He was just pissed off with Clichy’s utter stupidity against Birmingham. And he had every right to be. How the other players coped with that was there problem, not his. It didn’t seem to affect Clichy in any way afterwards, because he probably knew the whole thing was of his own doing.
If we had a few more Gallas type players we would be better. He was an integral part of a Chelsea team that won back to back titles. Something our players have zilch experience of achieving.
May 17th, 2008 at 12:40 pm
gallas is a bit crazy u can tell hes not all there senderos is crap we need a center back with prem exp
May 17th, 2008 at 12:45 pm
“it is awfully tough to judge a person’s mental strength unless he has been through failure. The younger you are the tougher it is”
Precisely why I would ask that question to Arsene.
As for Gerrard and Lampard missing penalties for England, everyone misses penalties once in a while. Mental strength is when you get back and score regularly as Gerrard did against us and Lampard did against Liverpool. Henry had that ability. I think RvP has it. I doubt any other do in this current squad.
I remember Bergkamp not taking penalties after that crucial miss in 1999 FA Cup semifinal. Bergkamp is a hero to me, so I kind of attributed it to his age and the fact that there were other mentally strong characters to take penalties in the Arsenal team. But there was a part of me that felt that he was mentally weak and true enough he was always substituted in games which went to the penalty shootout - UEFA Cup final and Holland vs Italy in Euro 2000.
May 17th, 2008 at 12:46 pm
If Hleb really wants to go to Inter, then we should say arivederci. He certainly hasn’t been a warrior for us and may be better suited to a floundering team like Inter. We lost a 5 point lead but Inter have blown an 11 point lead and now lead the scudetto by 1 point. Now comes this little tidbit about Inter: http://www.goal.com/en/Articolo.aspx?ContenutoId=698678#Comm. Let’s see how fast Hleb’s mouthpiece can backtrack on his client’s next big move.
Diarra gets an FA Cup medal with an excellent performance. Nice job. Diarra becomes one of that rare breed of ex-Arsenal players to experience success after departing Arsenal (Cole and Pires being the others at this point).
May 17th, 2008 at 12:50 pm
thuram is linked with a move to arsenal hes kinda old 4 a arsene wenger signing
May 17th, 2008 at 12:51 pm
says hes to join as a player coach
May 17th, 2008 at 1:20 pm
@ 8:
Its easy to do all those things when the going is GOOD - and team is in a good spot. Mental strength is your primal attitude at a very bad moment.
A 29 year old throwing a childish, hysterical, kicking and crying (with TEARS) tantrum DURING a game is NOT mental strength.
Someone like say Roy Keane would have harangued the referee endlessly - get carded, whatever. Delayed the pen. as much as possible. Making the most of a terrible “valley” situation is what “leaders” are meant to do.
Dont worry, I dont expect you to understand that concept.
Gallas IS mentally weak and so is the majority of our team. We need to get in players that are strong up in their heads.
May 17th, 2008 at 2:04 pm
B_S Fred@14
Who or what qualifies you as an expert on determining mental weakness. To make a statement that the majority of the team is weak without supplying any supporting information is totally invalid.
We are all free to discuss and criticize, but please lend some credence to your statement by providing us with the points about each player named which in your mind means they are mentally weak.
Nipuna@5
To say that Toure is weak because he panicked against Babel is incorrect. For one, it was not a penalty and secondly, a desperate run to avoid a player getting free passage to the goal is what every back does if they are out of position or someone else has left their marker. I have seen Ferdinand, Campbell, Adams, Stamm, Vidic, Terry, and a host of other great backs make multiple errors over their career without being called mentally weak.
Factor in Toure’s fantastic performances while being at Arsenal for so many years at varying positions and I find it hard to encapsulate his career by a few down moments this season. Pre ANC he was a stalwart with everyone praising him and he will be a “tough” stalwart for us next year.
May 17th, 2008 at 2:13 pm
CaribKid, there is a difference between being a good/solid player and being mentally strong. Toure has been a rock at the back. Agreed, he is a solid player and a wonderful servant to the club. But he has shown several moments of weakness in the past. Most notable being his performance in the loss at Munich in the CL. Remember that? What about his wonderful pirouette turn in the ANC semis? Which experienced CB does that in such a big game?
May 17th, 2008 at 2:31 pm
Only in today’s bullshit PC society would people try and attach some significance to the actions of Gallas. Fred is a great purveyor of this, so are a few other fans, who jump on media bandwagons and take their opinions as they’re own.
As Fabregas said, what players do while the game is being played is more important than reactions and expressions of emotion which can manifest in several different manners depending on the character of a player. Keane and Gallas are different people.
As for going was good, 2-1 to Man United in injury time. How was the going good? Alot was riding on that game and an Arsenal defeat would have popped the bloon in a most deflating fashion.
What about his great finish against Bolton when 2-0 down with ten men? Arsenal were hardly basking in glory at that stage.
Not the actions of a person with a weak mentality.
May 17th, 2008 at 2:38 pm
By the way, how crap was Kranjcar today. He reminds me of those retired footballers who play in those masters tournaments 2 stone heavier than in their playing days. All he can do is back heels and stationary flicks. He will be lucky to keep his place in the Portsmouth team over the summer.
I think Bilic was winding everyone up with that recommendation to Wenger.
May 17th, 2008 at 3:26 pm
Mazza, you dont seem to know what PC stands for or means. Go look it up, son.
A defender scoring off a corner has nothing to do with mental strength. Toure scored off a corner in the CL semis … does that make him some zen character?
Jumping on media bandwagon? I think the vast majority of the British media are xenophobic retards - so I dont give a hoot about their opinion.
May 17th, 2008 at 4:13 pm
@ 15: Calm down, Caribkid. My college minor in Psychology from all those years ago … maybe
Mental strength has nothing to do with technical ability or hardwork. It is pretty much an immutable part of one’s personality the way. Its a really expansive subject. Anyway, a couple of years back I posted on this site that people in general - not just footballers - can be classified into “leaders”, “flair”, “consistents”, “mediocre or non-winning” personalities. Or you can just classify as leaders and followers as is used in general language.
“leaders”: are usually a very small fraction of the population naturally. They usually combine theirs with flair or with consistency as well. And are very cynical, organizational and self possessive of a team or project. And the basic feature here is mental strength. Its all very primal, you are a pack of cavemen being chased by a large bear…you look at the leaders face - if it is calm, you relax.
Going back to football. This sport is a very thin margin game, so I believe personality type matters. You need the core of your team to have a very cynical, obsessive desire to win and not lie down in victimhood, hysteria and self pity.
Arsenal players and even Wenger are guilty of that too often. Victimhood, self-pity, crying, petulance - a losing combination. I used to think Gallas was a real stand out “winner” type….then he went and displayed that combination of weak emotions that a captain and leader shouldnt.
May 17th, 2008 at 4:20 pm
I know full well what politically correct means and the general reaction to the Gallas incident sums it up quite nicely. Lemmings who follow the ‘party’ line of how a captain should act react based on tradition and decide to neglect an objective view derived from a particular set of circumstances. Circumstances in this case being the giving up of two vital points due to an idiotic play from Clichy in the last minute of injury time, in a closely fought title race.
It showed he cared. Whereas somone like Adams back in the day was more concerned with having a nice booze up after the match and wouldn’t have been particularly bothered by such a mistake. Of course, that apathy is passed off as good captaincy by the all and sundry.
I’m undecided on Toure. He has stepped and scored vital goals but he has alot less defensive composure than Gallas in my view. Problem with Toure is that it seems to be getting worse with age.
May 17th, 2008 at 4:28 pm
Now, Eboue is the very definition of: mentally weak.
Victimhood when he is tackled. Lying down shaking his head in either pity or petulance. Fake crying at the referee amongst other silly and petulant conning activities.
All this from a player who has all the attributes to actually be a very effective player. It all boils down to his fear of actually being useful. So instead he reverts to his basic, primal emotions in a “losing” vicious cycle.
Hleb: All the skills of Kaka. He can dribble better than Kaka, he has the turns of Cruyff …and to be honest what could Zidane do that Hleb cant? I cant think of any. The main difference though is that Hleb is completely and utterly scared of becoming a great player - so he curtails himself severely.
It all boils down to basic fear and an inability not to panic when the fear hits you. - mental strength. Its all in degrees ofcourse - not in black and white.
May 17th, 2008 at 4:41 pm
Adams didnt care much about the team? OK then!
You still dont know what PC means.
Twist it all you may - PETULANCE, crying, self-pity - when the game is NOT yet over is not a show of strength. Not in any football, not in any other field whatsoever.
Anger, cynicism - directed at the ref or linesman during the game and at your teammates (AFTER) the game. Refs have been known to change their mind on penalties in Chelsea and Man U games after a good haranguing … that is not exactly right, that is cynical and selfish … but that is STRENGTH.
Petulance and weeping and self pity about how your teammates have f-cked you up is NOT mental strength in any context whatsoever.
May 17th, 2008 at 5:07 pm
The reaction to the Gallas incident was a very ‘pc’ reaction. It may not fall under the political and religious lines that define political correctness as we know it but the method of thinking that political correctness encourages leads to this generalising and less emphasis on clinical thinking. I don’t expect you to understand that concept.
Your basing your entire opinion on Gallas on pure conjecture. The conjecture that his emotional response to the penalty incident greatly affected the team’s performance in the seasons end. There is ZERO evidence of that. Especially when you consider that the catalyst for the show of frustration has been a constant theme in Wenger’s reign; lack of concentration. Symptoms and causes, remember that one?
Again, you show your rigid and inflexible train of thought when you say the game was not over yet. The game was in fact over the second we kicked off. Did it ever cross your mind that Gallas realised this the moment the penality was given and that’s why he was so pissed off? No, probably not. It’s too specific and doesn’t fall in line with your speculative bullshit way of thinking. The prime example of this speculative nonsense being your assertion that Gallas haranguing the referee would have made a toss of difference. A tactic that probably works on average once every blue moon. Oh yeah, another one. Gallas could have possibly cleared the rebound. Another load of one in a million nonsense.
May 17th, 2008 at 5:50 pm
I am calm Fred, but one of my pet peeves in this world is that we tend to be very judgmental of people without having all the facts at hand.
I completely understand the psychology jargon as being a successful PM for some of the top 10 Corporations in the world, not only did I have to take numerous courses in the subject but have had to deal with people of all levels, color and creed on a daily basis and resolve their personal crises as a means of getting the job done.
However, we can’t take an individual act and make a judgment based on that. We have to look at the big picture over time before we make an assessment. Also, being emotional or caring has nothing whatsoever to do with mental toughness. Everyone has a breaking point and the toughest of people will have a few incidents in their career which is not indicative of their psychological makeup.
To draw conclusions without having met people, not been able to assess their body language and not being able to see them in their more relaxed moments is plain unfair. Yes, we can judge Eboue to some extent because it is very evident by his daily reactions and repeated pattern of behavior that he is somewhat insecure and probably is mentally weak to a certain extent.
In summation I bring up a very old saying, ” Judge ye not, lest ye be judged”.
May 17th, 2008 at 6:51 pm
Countering my “bullshit conjecture” with a load of conjecture….LOOL. Typical incoherence!
And you STILL dont know what PC means.
May 17th, 2008 at 6:55 pm
“”Your basing your entire opinion on Gallas on pure conjecture. The conjecture that his emotional response to the penalty incident greatly affected the team’s performance in the seasons end.”"
Oh my. Rereading my comments, I see no where that I directly or indirectly imply this. Considering the whole “argument” was about individual player “mental strength” I see why you would go off in a tangent like that.
Arent kids in the UK taught to read and analyze text properly?
May 17th, 2008 at 7:18 pm
@ caribkid: you dont need to actually meet the players.
I have watched about 90% of arsenal matches of the last 11 years. And that is counting even friendlies. With the advent of “illegal” streaming from Asia - that number has climbed to almost 100%. And I have the season dvds of the last 8 years!
Either way one can make reasonably fair assessments of players after watching them on live TV for 50 games a season for a couple of seasons.
Toure has ALWAYS been shady in the air. And it has progressively got worse. When the ball is in the air, LOOK at his face. You will notice that 50% of the time, the guy loses his spatial orientation such that he is nowhere near his man. And forget about after the ANC … look at the 2006 season dvd and last season videos.
He is terrific in normal ground play. He is very fast and can recover any errors made by the defense. But when the ball is in the air - fear sets in for some reason.
Gallas is not great in the air, but he competes at least. Senderos is good sometimes but falls for dummy here a shimmy there. Toure on the other hand is the only player I know who loses his man without the striker having to shimmy or dummy at all.
You dont believe me? Pick up last seasons DVD and have a look.
May 17th, 2008 at 7:19 pm
Your the one spewing bullshit conjecture. I don’t believe the Gallas incident had any effect whatsoever. How can I conjecture on something that I believe has zero significance and may as well not happened? It’s only because of idiots like you we’re still talking about it.
You’ve been blathering on for months how a captain should or should not act. By inference you mean the team otherwise why would you care about his actions?
You seem to have trouble distinguishing the difference between defination of political correctness and the effects of political correctness on society.
Weren’t you taught anything at all? Apart of course from your ‘insightful’ cave man pyschology which Caribkid has just made a mockery of.
May 17th, 2008 at 7:30 pm
Yeah Mazza let it all out -
At every turn you mention PC - yet still have no clue what it means.
Swallow your pride and check it up. Google it, boy.
Get back at me when you FINALLY read and understand the comments you argue with.
May 17th, 2008 at 7:34 pm
take a chill pill ladys lol
May 17th, 2008 at 7:46 pm
Do you know what it means is probably a more pertinent question? I’m starting to wonder…
May 17th, 2008 at 7:51 pm
Anyway, been down this road before. The more your arguments gets exposed the more non-specific and dismissive you get. Your not fooling anyone mate.
May 17th, 2008 at 8:04 pm
Calm down Mazza, dont get testy. Its hard to treat this as an argument when you have never actually responded to any point I have made. Off a tangent as always!
May 17th, 2008 at 8:05 pm
Fred, you can’t possibly tell one’s mental strength based upon one reaction to one very stressful situation. Stressful reactions are very non-specific, meaning that there is no set way to respond. Everyone responds differently. Anger or cynacism directed towards referees, to me is more gamesmanship than mental strength.
While I was embarassed by Gallas’ response in the Birmingham game, I also understand what it means to be human. In retrospect, I’m sure Gallas was even more embarassed but we were in a very tight title race and could hardly afford to drop points the way we did to a team like Birmingham. He simply failed to master his emotions and publicly embarassed himself.
Lastly, I thought you had to be atleast thirteen to post on this site. Seriously, the way Fred and Mazza go at it takes me back to 2nd grade. You two have me looking forward to the fight after school in the playground.
May 17th, 2008 at 8:12 pm
Your still hung up over a point already answered emphatically by Caribkid and you don’t like the way the argument is evolving because you have no response. Don’t worry, it’s not anything I haven’t seen from you before mate.
May 17th, 2008 at 8:15 pm
Joshuad, at least I try and keep the argument on track and reasonably pertinent. It’s Fred that keeps trivialising with semantics and avoiding questions because he has no answer!
May 17th, 2008 at 8:21 pm
As for Fabregas for captain, I’m strongly opposed to that for two reasons:
First, Goals are hard to score in soccer so you need your playmaker/goalscorers focused to that end with few distractions. Not saying they should abandon their defensive duties but I would think it silly to believe a player can effectively lead the team and still be at their best in the attack. It was the same argument I made when Wenger introduced Henry as Arsenal capatin. Those were his worst two years at Arsenal. A DM or CB should be captain.
Secondly, Fabregas is still so young and his game is not yet fully developed. He needs to focus on progressing as a footballer. Once his game is complete, then you can add those extra responsibilities on him. For now, it’s too much to ask him to lead a team like Arsenal. We have loads of experienced players in the team so no need to stress out our young star.
May 17th, 2008 at 8:22 pm
Arsenal904, are you from Jacksonville?
May 17th, 2008 at 8:27 pm
Gamesmanship is an example. It implies that you are “calm” enough to realize being petulant and pitying yourself cant make a difference. But talking to the ref. might force him to walk the distance to the linesman to have a “talk” - better than having a strop.
Lets not forget that Gallas has always been known to be sulky and stroppy even at Chelsea. I dont have time to go into it all….but he didnt exactly cover himself in glory in the Bendy/Ade handbags either. Ade headbutts Bendy, and Gallas comes in to confront Bendy in the most hilarious of ways. lol.
Anyhoo, buy a tall vidic-like CB, stick him with Gallas and the center - move on.
PS: As for Mazza, well, you wont find me using insults - so it aint 2nd grade yet…..more 10th
May 17th, 2008 at 8:36 pm
Sure Stag would testify to the contrary on that last comment on #40.
John McEnroe often reacted with extreme petulance to perceived unjust decisions from the umpire. Yet did people call him mentally weak? Nope, because he dusted himself down and used the aggression to play better tennis.
May 17th, 2008 at 8:37 pm
@ josh: I agree, Fabregas should definitely NOT get the band. He is already carrying way too much weight as it is.
And therein lies the problem. If you take the captaincy from Gallas who do you give it to? Toure? Hell no. Gilberto? He shouldnt be starting so no. Almunia? LOL!
There is nobody with leadership qualities in the team.
And that is where my whole argument was geared towards - we should buy a proper DM, CB and GK - all with “leadership” skills to take proper possession of the team’s direction.
And before you know it someone starts a phony, pointless “argument” with me lol.
May 17th, 2008 at 8:42 pm
“And that is where my whole argument was geared towards - we should buy a proper DM, CB and GK - all with “leadership” skills to take proper possession of the team’s direction.”
Fred Estaire, if you can’t jump over the hurdles how do expect to finish the race. lol.
May 17th, 2008 at 8:43 pm
HA, the McEnroe argument is actually to my point.
He was calculating in harassing the umpire - for future gain in that same match. McEnroe was utterly cynical in his motives - make no mistakes about that. His opponents always used to complain that he was using mind games on the umpires.
May 17th, 2008 at 9:07 pm
“A 29 year old throwing a childish, hysterical, kicking and crying (with TEARS) tantrum DURING a game is NOT mental strength.”
Regardless of whether people thought he was being calculating or not, is it relevant to the argument you were presenting? An argument based solely on a physical and mental reaction to adversity without deeper inspection in terms of uncovering motives etc?
After all, I could say in ten years time William Gallas needed to express his emotions because it acted as a cartharsis and enabled him to move on without frustration spilling over to subsequent games.
May 17th, 2008 at 9:29 pm
Ofcourse it is. When Keane did it - it was calculating. When the Chelsea hordes do it it is definitely calculating and cynical. McEnroe was all anger and shouting right in front of the umpire and the linecallers. Trying to intimidate them.
McEnroe and Gallas’s actions are completely different. Gallas is a hundred meters from the ref (ie. self-pity). McEnroe is right in is face (cynical).
Ofcourse as a high end athlete or professional you need to close out the current game in the best possible way you can. Then vent afterwards. There is enough time in between games to “vent your frustrations”.
May 17th, 2008 at 9:47 pm
So are you saying Gallas should act like those Chelsea thugs in order to become a good captain? Or that he needs to be cynical in order to be classed as having mental strength?
May 17th, 2008 at 10:03 pm
Nope. Ideally he should do none of the extremes. But if he must pull a tantrum…pull it in front of the ref. Or wait for the final whistle.
Defeatism, victimhood, bitterness, wallowing in self-pity are always bad - especially in an area where you cant influence anybody but everybody can see you.
And for too long it has been associated with Arsenal.
May 18th, 2008 at 1:14 am
Sorry..but this thread has been ruined.
May 18th, 2008 at 9:46 am
Don’t be too hard on yourself LDE. Point #7 wasn’t that bad!
May 18th, 2008 at 10:14 am
@50: Nice on the sarcasm…made me smile mentally. I won’t say anything more though about the thread though coz I know what will happen if I do.
May 18th, 2008 at 10:37 am
My god you guys talk sh*t
Mazza, Fred - Gallas is a winner. There is a difference between that and being mentally strong and being a good captain. Mazza, because of what happened at Birmingham, Gallas lost the dressing room. It is obvious from all the stagements from Clichy, Toure, Wenger, etc.
Whether he can fully recover their respect again remains to be seen. A big decision for Wenger.
Personally, I think Fabregas is the real leader of this team.
May 18th, 2008 at 11:15 am
Well atleast Flamini can watch Arsenal play in the Champions League next season as he’ll being playing his European games on Thursdays, cocksucker.
May 18th, 2008 at 11:31 am
#53, well said.
May 18th, 2008 at 11:59 am
I would like to ask Wenger if he would take Flamini back should the latter find a way to break his contract with AC Milan and avoid playing in the same cup as spurs next season in Europe?
HAAAAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHA. At least now Flamini will get to play week-in, week-out at small eastern european cities we’ve never heard of!
May 18th, 2008 at 12:44 pm
At least Flamini is now more likely to start as I can imagine their midfielders might look to bail.
I look forward to interviews later next season with Flamini where he talks about life at Arsenal and how he “misses” it. And starts giving us unsolicited “advise”
May 18th, 2008 at 12:44 pm
Seriously I’m not even mad at Flamini going. He got a better deal - he wanted the money - he went. I’m not bitter in the least coz he gave 100% even though he knew he might go. Thats all that matters. Sure mebbe he tricked AW a bit with the “I want to stay” bit but he’s not screwed the club leaving the club late into July or something. I think he knew this might happen , he’s definitely not dumb. I mean Luca Toni, Ribery and a host of other guys joined Bayern Munich even though they knew they’d be playing UEFA cup..and they haven’t won it either!! .. Its all about the money..seriously and as longas you don’t screw your old club — I’m fine with moving for money. So #53,54,55 — Dont agree.
What Cashley Cole and now Hleb have done is inexcusable and for all of Hleb’s wonderful skills I’m not going to be able to enjoy it as much if he stays — because of the supposed Icecream Gate.
May 18th, 2008 at 1:49 pm
“I’m fine with moving for money. So #53,54,55 — Dont agree.”
I’m fine too if someone leaves for the money, just say so. Don’t spout crap like “the pain of not winning the league”, “Milan is a top club”, “it’s not the money”, etc.
I am not mad, just delighted.
May 18th, 2008 at 1:59 pm
Yeah true that but they all do it…even Freddie did it!! Though I’m probably not delighted either. He’s no longer with Arsenal , he means nothing from now on to me. Though Cashley messing up does bring a big grin to my face ;).
May 18th, 2008 at 2:58 pm
http://soccernet.espn.go.com/news/story?id=533975&&cc=5901. This is just some lame ass s**t from Flamini. He can save it for his memoirs when history will have blunted the harshness of our judgement. We all know that it was all about the Euros. He and his new best bud Kaka’ ( already resigned to UEFA Cup ball) can do qualifiers at stadiums you can find with a GPS unit. Rough justice. Made my day.
I will watch the CL final and hope to see a quality match. I will not care who wins since no one winning is not an option. Both teams represent the worst of the EPL: debt ridden teams that will draw a crack down from UEFA, one team are the darlings of the FA and the referees and the other team are the bane of those officials.
May 18th, 2008 at 3:01 pm
…can’t find with…
May 18th, 2008 at 3:21 pm
Nothing wrong with leaving for money, just do not pretend it’s for other reasons and string your team and fans along.
May 18th, 2008 at 3:30 pm
http://youngguns.wordpress.com/2008/05/18/carlos-vela-completes-loan-spell-nasri-fee-agreed/.
This guy is usually pretty solid with his information. A Nasri move passes my trade rumor filter test which asks two questions: is it logical and does it make sense for what Arsenal needs. Clearly Hleb is tainted as far as his Arsenal career is concerned and can’t be of any further use to us. We need a replacement and if Wenger rates Nasri, then he’s my guy, too.
May 18th, 2008 at 4:02 pm
exactly Caribkid. If Hleb’s really leaving for Series A, now i know what i would be asking him…. i remember when he first joined us, he talked about the main reason why he joined Arsenal - that because we were an attacking side, we pass the ball FORWARD. While in his old club they tended to pass the ball sideway. And in his own nature he likes to pass the ball forward. therefore he decided to join us.
now because it’s only 3 years ago so i can remember that pretty well.
nothing is certain yet. but if he really goes to Series A of all place, does that mean he think the Series A sides’ mentality are more attacking than us?
basically when a player leaves, whatever REASON he comes out it really DOES NOT matter. like Henry, he said he still love the club when he left. but whether he still loved the club or not at that point was totally IRRELEVANT to us. We would be playing WITHOUT him, that’s the only fact and reality.
but when a player comes up with all soft of “reasons” of their decisions to leave, it just made me laugh. Do they seriously think every football fans are below age of 3?!
if someone in the future is brave enough to come out and say, i am leaving, because i asked my (current) club to show me the money. They didn’t. Another club did. So l am leaving.
now every agent of this world may advice their players never say stupid things like that. but guess what? if someone does come out and say that, I would respect the man at least for being honest. Seriously, I know i will. cos no matter how i look at it, it’s better than all those crap excuses they could come out with at the past or present.
May 18th, 2008 at 4:06 pm
http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.laprovence.com%2Farticles%2F2008%2F05%2F18%2F451170-FRANCE-Le-cadeau-de-Nasri-et-Cisse.php&hl=en&ie=UTF8&sl=fr&tl=en.
This is the link for the origin of the Nasri to Arsenal story. Nasri saying that he has scored his last goal for Marseille and the conjecture is he’s on his way to us. Of course we’ll all await the due diligence-the official word from Arsenal.com which usually takes about a week to 10 days.
May 18th, 2008 at 4:25 pm
http://www.frenchleague.com/joueur/index.asp?no_joueur=105332
May 18th, 2008 at 4:51 pm
Ribery, before he left Marseille, came out and said I want to help Marseille qualify for the Champions League and then I’m out. No doubt, he went for the money but he didn’t try and blow smoke up everybody’s asses. People knew from day one where he stood and people respect that.
Flamini reasons range from I couldn’t take the stress of being so close and not winning everything to Arsenal waited too long to sign me and it really wasn’t about money. Well, quoting a line from my old man, “Son, you can’t bullshit a bullshiter.”
May 18th, 2008 at 5:58 pm
Clichy is not picked for Euro 2008. I suppose I should be happy that there is a chance of one less Arsenal player getting injured but I do feel bad for Clichy as he had a very good season.
May 18th, 2008 at 6:19 pm
Nuff said Joshuad. Completely agree.
May 18th, 2008 at 7:13 pm
Sagna wasnt called either.
Infact apart from Gallas and Fabregas, nobody else will be doing anything in the summer. Even Fabregas is not going to be starting.
Good for Arsenal I guess - considering they tire easily.
May 18th, 2008 at 9:05 pm
I can’t say I’m surprised about being clichy, despite having an awesome season, you can only so many left backs and Abidal and Evra are ahead of him. I rate Evra, but Abidal is bullshit IMO, particularly after his display against Man U (maybe I’m just pissed, he was ok at the WC). However, I’m suprised about Sagna’s omission, cos Sagnol had a so so season, but Domenech is one weird idiosyncratic mu’fucka, so I guess he sticks with his guys.
May 18th, 2008 at 10:16 pm
clichy should have been on the team even if just for exp
May 18th, 2008 at 10:32 pm
Flamini will not play in CL next year. Yaiks…what a move.
May 18th, 2008 at 10:34 pm
I think it is good for Arsenal not to have Clichy and Sagna in the French Euro squad. We dont have to worry about them getting injured.
May 18th, 2008 at 11:39 pm
Ajax too will play in the UEFA Cup. Any players worth looking at there - Huntelaar?
May 18th, 2008 at 11:44 pm
I haven’t seen Nasri play. But his goal record is pretty poor - 11 in 121 games for Marseille. Also, 12.5M GBP is a LOT for a 21 year old.
May 18th, 2008 at 11:46 pm
ben arfa and nasri they would cost us alot of money but it would be worth it
May 18th, 2008 at 11:48 pm
Ben Arfa’s goal record isn’t great either - 7 in 64 games for Lyon.
May 19th, 2008 at 12:02 am
Huntelaar is an interesting prospect, prolific albeit in the dutch league, where they play no defense, but Ronaldo (the fat), RVN, Romario, Cruyff, MVB, all learned their craft in that league. Maybe, we should splash the cash and get him, but like its been reported elsewhere, it makes you wonder why no big club has made a serious challenge for him.
May 19th, 2008 at 2:01 am
Arsenal players at Euro2008 - Cesc, Sendy, Gallas, RvP, Djourou?, Fabianski?
Players involved in summer WC qualifiers - Toure, Song, Ade, Eboue, Vela, Gilberto?
May 19th, 2008 at 2:09 am
The Dutch league was good in those days. So the likes of Ronaldo, Cruyff, etc actually played in a much stronger league. Now, its a bit more mickey mouse over there.
Ever since the Bosman came into effect, the Dutch league and pretty much all the other leagues apart from England, Spain and Italy have dropped off seriously.
That Bosman ruling pretty much turned soccer into a monopoly game.
May 19th, 2008 at 2:45 am
I guess clichy not being picked is a blessing in disguise (being healthy for Arsenal next season) but if crap like Boumsong who did NOTHING for newcastle and now doing nothing for is current crap club, then it’s an INSULT to clichy not being picked.
I hope this will motivate clichy to play even BETTER next year so he could make the team.
May 19th, 2008 at 7:33 am
The fact that Clichy missed out on France squad just tell you how far a gap now between England and some of the European footaball power.
Clichy, voted by his fellow pros as the BEST left back in the Premiership the past season, couldn’t even break into the France squad, let alone starting XI?!
personally i agree Evra is a better LB, probably one of the best in the world. and he always seemed to have a good game Vs us. that 2-2 draw at Emirates he was very impressive.
i afraid Clichy has a fate like Nigel Winterburn at the past. Nutty was one of the top LB in England during his time, but unfortunately there was a better LB in England named Stuart Pearce at that time. So Nutty only got 2 caps. While Dixon as a RB with fewer competition for place got 22. luck plays a part in a footballer’s career i guess.
May 19th, 2008 at 9:13 am
I agree that Evra is better than Clichy. Evra knows when to make a marauding overlapping run to release the pressure on his side when they are under pressure. This helps to shift the pyschology of a match.
When Arsenal were under pressure against Chelsea at Stamford Bridge, Clichy was nowhere to be seen as an outlet. I remember one passage of play vividly when we had the ball in midfield and Cesc was looking for him to support however Clichy was planted to his left back spot and we ended up needlessly giving the ball away.
Clichy for me is the perfect embodiment of this Arsenal side. Lots of ability but still lacking the brain and experience to finish the job off.
May 19th, 2008 at 10:47 am
Its not about brain, it is a lack of experience. Afterall, when Eboue was at RB he bombed forward quite nicely all the time - so that is not a good criteria for brain power.
This is Clichy’s second completed season as a starting LB. He is still young.
Abidal on the other hand is just plain whack.
May 19th, 2008 at 11:56 am
Evra’a a better crosser for sure. Runs wise there isn’t too much to choose nor is there defending wise. But its tight.
May 19th, 2008 at 12:15 pm
Clichy is the best interceptor I have ever seen. His tackling is also exceptional. Amazing anticipation and timing.
I rate Evra, but couldn’t possibly compare objectively.
May 19th, 2008 at 12:21 pm
It’s very close between Clichy and Evra and any one of the two could easily have been selected. Clichy does have more pace but Evra has more positional awareness. Considering Clichy’s youth and relative experience I can only see him improving and eventually overtaking an older Evra who has probably peaked. To select Abidal over Clichy however is plain outrageous but he will get his chance.
It must be very nice to have a selection problem like this.
Clichy is a very intelligent player, and like all intelligent players will only make their runs when there is the proper defensive rotation in place. Making a run for the sake of making a run and leaving your position vacant without defensive protection would be stupid. Eboue used to bomb forward all the time but we were caught out of position many times when he lost the ball.
If the DM and the RMF is playing high up at the time, the LB can not make a run until one or both retreat to a more defensive position. Overlaps are not basically random, but are a strategic team concept deployed within the flow of the game. It is very naive to believe that players just do what they feel like. Very few players have the green light to be totally creative while most have to play within the team concept and strategy being employed at that moment in time.
Lack of experience within our team I accept, calling them unintelligent (in a football sense) I do not accept. As a matter of fact, you have to be extremely intelligent to play in such a complex system devised by Arsene.
Believe me when I say if our system was so easy to master, most top teams would be employing it. That is also why Arsene has to select specific types of players for his squad. Just about any Brazilian can play for Arsenal, since essentially it is the system they created in the 60’s and grow up playing this way on a daily basis.
May 19th, 2008 at 1:19 pm
Abidal was taken because he gives Domenech variety with his size and experience. For me, Abidal has played well this year. Maybe, like with Yaya Toure, I only caught his good games.
Sagna, if he were fit and playing the last two months, would have been selected. However, he’s injured and is not fit. It would be foolish to take him or Diaby.
Clichy is young. As long as he doesn’t pass judgement on his coach in the media for not selecting him (the way Pires and Trezeguet did) then his time will come. It’s plain to see that he has all the physical attributes required to be a world class fullback. He just needs a bit more experience. Meanwhile, he should enjoy his summer break. He’s worked hard this season and deserves it.
May 19th, 2008 at 1:53 pm
Caribkid, if Arsenal were drawing or losing the game Clichy would have pushed higher up the pitch and been on hand to receive the pass. Why didn’t he? Because we were winning the game. Great for most teams in the game of football but an absolute disaster for us. Half the team want to carry on attacking and the other half want to protect the lead. What you get is communication breakdowns similar to the one I mentioned.
I get the point about strategies etc but in this area of Clichy’s game it’s about confidence and being aware of team shape. Our philosophy requires that players play their natural game all the time, especially in pressure situations. Clichy should have known that the ball was being worked across the pitch at that point.
Still, he is very young and hopefully he will improve.
May 19th, 2008 at 2:44 pm
I thought some on here were complaining of too “many square passes to the fullbacks” lol.
Evra doesnt exactly make bombing runs when Man U are leading. Infact Man U has 2 banks of 4 behind the ball when they are leading.
May 19th, 2008 at 2:54 pm
Looking back it wasn’t even a bombing run that was needed. Just a little surge up to the area before the halfway line.
May 19th, 2008 at 3:09 pm
The top teams over the years -Chelsea being a prime example of this despite alot of nonsense written about them always defending- knew when to turn the screw and mentally destroy their opponent by not always playing to the script of defending a lead. Instead of submissively sitting back they often used a winning position to ram home their advantage. Their third goal in the 3-1 victory over United in 2005 was a perfect illustration of this.
Even against us this season we saw it. They were 2-1 up and yet Drogba would have made it 3-1 if not for Almunia’s smart save. They stamped all over us in that last twenty minutes when most would just sit back and defend the lead.
United are not the greatest at this themselves. In fact they’re almost as bad us at times.
May 19th, 2008 at 4:48 pm
Mazza, the shape of the game is dictated to a large part by the manager, not the players. During the game any manager worth their salt, including Arsene, instructs the players as to what the formation will be and decides whether we should be in attacking, holding or defensive mode.
Every good team has formations established pre-game so when instructions are passed onto the field each player knows their role and tries to implement the required shape. Whether this was the case in that particular instance I don’t know, but without insider knowledge it is impossible to lay the blame on a player.
When the squad is healthy you will notice he deploys 5 different formations/player mix based on the team he is playing against and the particular game situation.
1) Attacking 4-4-2 with Hleib, Flamini, Fab, Rosicky and Walcott in the MF.
2) Defensive 4-4-2 with Eboue replacing either Hleib or Rosicky.
3) Attacking 4-3-3 (my preferred choice) when behind in the second half or against Derby (LOL) with Diaby/Walcott/Eduardo/ Bendtner/Ade/RVP in the mix.
4) Attacking 4-5-1 with Hleib in the slot and Diaby instead of Eboue in MF.
5) Defensive 4-5-1 With Eboue replacing Diaby.
We can agree or disagree with Arsene’s tactics and the players he uses to implement his schemes, but it is what it is.
With Vela being added next season and Walcott and Bendtner gaining valuable experience the past season he will have a few more options at his command.
May 19th, 2008 at 5:03 pm
Hey Fred, we normally disagree but in this case you are absolutely right about Manu when they are in defensive mode. Chelsea, Liverpool and Blackburn are the same are the same.
Spurs would love to be like that except they do not have the players to implement that type of scheme. Unfortunately, Juande Ramos is going to change all that within the next 2 years and we will have a big 5 instead of a big 4. That sucks.
We also have to keep a watchful eye on Aston Villa because they have a very good young core and could be excellent if they are able to retain that core and build upon it. It may be a lot more difficult to win the league going forward because of the quality represented by the top 9 or 10 teams in the EPL.
May 20th, 2008 at 6:17 pm
Interesting read, particularly for anyone who doubts what a manager and the style of play does for a squad:
http://soccernet.espn.go.com/columns/story?id=534468&root=england&cc=5901
Other than Sidwell (and that’s just Chelsea’s way of being Chelsea — throw money around just for the sake of doing it).
Thank the Football Gods for Arsene Wenger. His fiscal prudence and his scouting acumen. People will say what they want about the deep pockets of the ‘Big Four’, but what keeps Arsenal up there, money can’t buy.