Recently, I had a very feisty argument with a friend. He is a German and his favorite club is Bayern Munich. In England, his favorite club is actually Arsenal. But he essentially told me that Arsenal are a team of pussies and we will never win anything with this set of players. I obviously disagreed and we had quite an argument. He put forward some scenarios to illustrate his point
1. Gerrard converts penalty against Arsenal in the CL. Ballack converts penalty against ManU in the league. Ronaldo converts penalty on the final day at Wigan. When the stakes are so high, which Arsenal player would you trust, not just to step up to take the penalty but actually convert it?
My first answer was RvP, but he is injured often and not guaranteed to be on the pitch. The only other person I could think of was Eduardo.
2. Free kick for Chelsea against ManU, Ballack and Drogba are actually fighting over who takes it. Free kick for ManU against Arsenal, Ronaldo or Hargreaves can take it and maybe others too. If Arsenal get a free kick in a key game, who will step up? Will it be a case of you first?
Again, my first answer was RvP. I really couldn’t think of anyone else.
3. Torres’ 1:1 against Arsnal and Chelsea in the CL, Rooney’s 1:1 against Chelsea at the Bridge and Drogba’s goals against Liverpool in the CL. Which Arsenal player would you trust in a 1:1 in such a tight game?
My only answer was Eduardo. We all know Ade is not very good on 1:1s and I am not sure of RvP either.
There were some other examples, but you get the drift of it by now. My main line of defense was that you don’t come so close without having top players in the side. Just because we fell apart doesn’t mean we lack leaders and winners? There were lots of other reasons - injuries, bad referee decision, fatigue due to lack of depth, etc.
My friend also made some other comments. Living in Germany, he sees lots of Bundesliga games. He claims that not only is Hleb a big loser (something most of us know by now), but also that Rosicky is not much of a big game player. He claims that despite being captain of the Czech team, the big boys are Nedved, Poborsky and Koller.
Certainly the fact that we fell apart in key games at Anfield, the Bridge and OT does show a certain vulnerability. Is it simply a weak defense or do we need more leaders/winners in the team?
52 Responses to “Do Arsenal lack leaders and winners?”
Leave a Reply
You must be logged in to post a comment.
May 20th, 2008 at 12:52 am
I know this is a controversial topic, but I hope we can have an objective debate.
May 20th, 2008 at 4:07 am
Nipuna, this is a good thread. A few weeks ago I mentioned that David Villa would be THE IDEAL SIGNING. He has all of those qualities that you were mentioning that no one else in the team has. He’s pacy and lethal in a 1v1. He’s just as cold from the penalty spot. He’s a righty that can hit a freekick. The qualities he possesses would definitely make our team both more complete and more dynamic. If he were in our team, he’d get twenty goals easily.
The only down side would be that someone would struggle to get games. Tough shit! I’d rather one player struggle to get games than Arsenal continue to struggle to get trophies; especially when we play the best football and deserve to be at the top of the football food chain.
May 20th, 2008 at 4:13 am
Oh yeah, Off topic: I’ve been thinking this for like the past month. What about bringing Ricardo Oliveira to Arsenal? Over the past few years, he’s quietly been one of the best strikers in the world playing for teams that just couldn’t win. He played for Betis and they got relegated. This season, Zaragoza went down. In fairness, Zaragoza wasn’t crap, they just couldn’t get results.
But one thing the big Brazilian can do is put the ball in the net. He’s always been one of the top goal scorers in the Spanish league and I’m sure he’d jump at an opportunity to play Champions League football for a team that creates chances like Arsenal does. Someone mentioned his name a few weeks ago and I was like, dude is reading my mind. I just wanted to see if Zaragoza stayed up. Since they went down, I don’t think anyone is checking for him and we could get him for cheap.
May 20th, 2008 at 4:19 am
Not as controversial as you might think Nipuna as I am in almost total agreement with your assessment and I think the facts of our last campaign speaks for itself and has highlighted our deficiencies.
My next few comments may raise the ire of the Arsenal following but even the die hard Gunner’s fan must admit we are still an unfinished product, still have obvious weaknesses and are still in an evolutionary stage.
Arsenal reminds me of the “BORG” in Star Trek, a massive “Collective” which is unerringly efficient as a group and capable of destroying any adversary on it’s day but just as likely to be defeated by a single stroke of individual genius at any given moment.
1) Not only have we been on the receiving end of direct and indirect set pieces by allowing an inordinate amount of goals from corners, penalties and free kicks but on the obverse we have failed to inflict that same punishment on our opponents.
Defensively, if we get a tall, aerially adept CB and move a Song, Toure (Ya Ya or Kolo) or Djourou into the DM spot and spend some time practicing the art of creating and maintaining a wall this can easily be resolved for the upcoming season.
Offensively this is more difficult as RVP (not on the pitch enough due to injury), Eduardo (Coming off a severe injury) and Gilberto (Not on pitch often enough) are the only ones who currently are penalty kick specialists. In terms of direct free kicks only RVP is a threat and we invariably have Fab floating the ball into a predetermined area hoping that a fellow Arsenal alumni will produce a death defying header or Kolo blazing it along the ground in hopes the defensive wall will jump and leave space underfoot.
This aspect is where we really miss TH as he was always a danger to score from free kicks and therefore created an offensive unpredictability which made it more difficult to defend. Currently we have no one else in the squad to assume that mantle and that’s why I have been pleading for months to get a MF with that added dimension.
2) Gallas and Fabregas have established themselves as go to guys and have scored many important goals for us this season in gut check time. Walcott has shown signs he could one day be the one to assume that mantle, Vela has shown the promise albeit in a different league and RVP and Eduardo barring injury could establish themselves in that role.
To be honest, this factor is full of IF’s and BUT’s and in reality we currently do not have enough established “GO TO” guys on the roster.
Surprisingly however, with all the injuries we suffered during the past season and the litany of weaknesses described above we managed to finish 4 points behind Manu in the EPL and reached the sem-finals of the CL. This gives me hope that although we may not be the perfectly balanced team come next season that as the “Borg Collective” we will be able to lift some hardware once all is said and done.
The hope also, is if Arsene recognizes these weaknesses and addresses them over the next two seasons we might have the “GREATEST” ever club team of “ALL” times.
As my son would say “Nuff said”.
May 20th, 2008 at 4:32 am
Concur with your thread at #2 Joshuad that a Villa or a Villa like impact player would go a long way to ease that affliction. In saying that however, the player does not necessarily have to be a forward but could be a defender, Gareth Bale or MF, Gerrard, Lampard. Not saying these are the names to acquire but just the type of of impact players needed.
We most likely will not go after a Villa because of the other more pressing areas needed to be addressed.
I don’t know much about Oliviera but unless he has similar impact and versatility as a Villa we certainly do not need him. We do need a player with the ability of a double edged razor which has to be defended from more than one aspect.
May 20th, 2008 at 1:08 pm
How many Pussies had come from 0-2 down away with 10 men and won 3-2? should have asked ur fren that nipuna.
i don’t have the stats book with me as usual, but i seem to remember nobody had scored more late equalizer or winner within the last 10 minutes more than Arsenal the past season. Pussies don’t do that.
As for penalty, correct me if i m wrong - it’s nice to score a vital penalty in a big game, but you gotta get REWARDED with a penalty before you get a chance to convert it. I don’t know how many penalty we had missed last season, probably one. but I do recall in some of the crucial, big games, we got denied by some penalty decisions, while at the same time got punished by a few.
as for setpieces, again, what had it to do with winning mentality? You can let Cesc tries 10 times in one match, he may still miss them all. Not because he lack of NERVE, simply because he’s not a good setpiece taker. We basically only got one in van Persie since the departure of Henry, and he rarely played.
set pieces basically is about the ABILITY to take a setpieces. Beckham, Ronaldo, Henry, Ronaldinho the likes scored many freekicks, but it’s because they are good freekick takers, there are plently of players who had a stronger will to win yet couldn’t score from freekick.
come to think about it, the next player we sign, it won’t harm to sign a player who’s a good freekick taker. we need that.
May 20th, 2008 at 3:13 pm
Didn’t Gerard miss a penalty at the last world cup ?
May 20th, 2008 at 3:14 pm
And Lampard also
May 20th, 2008 at 5:37 pm
what bigger games do you want Rosicky to score in?… againist liverpool at anfield to ice the win?…. late game winners?… his champions league goals?… or world cup goals?
i would be at ease with any aresnal player taking a PK.. that is not one of the back 4 or Eboue… hell i’d take Kolo hitting it has hard as possible and taking the keepers hands off… let him run from 20 yards out ….. if we get are ever given a cruial penalty?
Free kicks.. RVP ..Rosicky.. Dudu.. Diaby..
1v1s… why worry about that.. we run in #s.. that’s our game.. we don’t play 10 men D and pray that 1 man saves us all… ….
wait wait wait… free kicks.. PKs and 1v1s… didn’t we have that the year before with T-14…. and didn’t we finish with more pts this year?… further in the champions league?…
May 20th, 2008 at 9:06 pm
Nipuna, you should ask you’re Bayern Munchen friend to comment on Ribery’s recent PK miss (p.s. he didn’t deserve the PK anyway). Nipuna, ask your friend which winners and leaders showed up for BM 2nd leg against Zenit. Did BM even get off the bus for that game.
We led the league in points gained from losing positions. We improved our overall league position and point total in spite of travails that we know only too well. We have some weak links who I won’t bother mentioning but in this, we are not the exception.
Ricardo Oliveira is an interesting player who I happen to like. He was a 20+ goal type player at Betis. Ripped up his knee and went back to Brazil to rehab. I think he was the leading scorer 2 years(?) ago with Sao Paulo when they won the Copa Libertadores. AC Milan then bought him from Betis and tried to play him with Inzaghi. That was a disaster because they got in each others way. AC loaned him out to Zaragoza and brought in the wunderkind who has worked out a ‘bit’ better. Once again in Spain he bagged 17 goals with RZ. He’s quick, can head the ball, shoot from distance and can go 1v1. The only problem is he belongs to AC Milan along with Marco Borriello who also had a breakout year at Genoa. If I’m AC Milan, I bring Oliveira back to play along side Pato because Inzaghi at 35yo can’t last much longer.
http://www.lequipe.fr/Football/20080521_001506_nasri-arsenal-c-est-boucle_Dev.html.
This French paper states that Arsenal have met the buyout clause (13.5mil) for Nasri and he’ll sign on 5/21/08 after a medical and terms discussion. he is the heir apparent for Hleb. Hleb has not even left yet and we haven’t replaced Flamini.
Finally, Joey Barton gets jail time. 5.5mil flushed down the Allardyce crapper.
Holland looked like crap vs. Japan in the Toulon Tournament and lost 1-0. France the defending title holder got spanked 5-3 by Chile the only S.A. entrant after being up 3-1. France looked good until they went a man down.
May 20th, 2008 at 11:43 pm
Gerrard and Lampard both missed in WC2006. But they continued taking penalties for their clubs and rarely miss. Also, it is universally acknowledged that both Gerrard and Lampard do not show the kind of leadership and winning mentality for England that they do for their respective clubs.
May 20th, 2008 at 11:46 pm
Oh, believe me, I gave my friend a lot of grief after BM’s loss to Zenit. Even saying that Zenit are like a poor man’s Arsenal and that if BM actually played Arsenal, we would thrash them.
But that’s not the point. Germany is a weak league. BM may not have too many winners, but neither do the other clubs there. So BM can canter to the title at ease.
In England, the story is completely different. ManU and Chelsea are both double league winners and Liverpool (somehow) always manage to do well in the CL. The bar is a lot higher here.
May 20th, 2008 at 11:53 pm
As for free kicks, it is unbelievable that Arsenal has all these technically gifted players but not one of them can bend the ball over a wall!!!
The point about free kicks is not about ability. It’s about margins. In tight games, penalties and free kicks can make a BIG difference. Look no further than our loss at OT. Ronaldo scored the penalty (twice) and Hargreaves scored the free kick. It can be argued that if Hargreaves didn’t score, the result would be a draw.
Come to think of it, Arsenal is not a “margins” team. Our strategy is to create 5 chances and score 1-2 of them. That’s why Ade missed the first chance at Anfield (CL) but scored of Theo’s assist. If it comes down to narrow margins and we get just 1-2 chances, then you would fancy Torres, Rooney or Drogba over Ade and maybe even RvP.
More and more big games are being decided by small margins.
May 21st, 2008 at 12:02 am
My personal opinion is that Arsenal certainly don’t lack fighters. The fact that we are top of the comeback league is testament to that. But we do lack a cutting edge in tight games. We lack the player who would score in a tight game given one chance, not three. Was hoping Eduardo can be that guy.
May 21st, 2008 at 12:29 am
“wait wait wait… free kicks.. PKs and 1v1s… didn’t we have that the year before with T-14…. and didn’t we finish with more pts this year?… further in the champions league?…”
Precisely, the point being that those free kicks, PKs and 1:1s could be the difference between 3rd and 1st in the league.
May 21st, 2008 at 12:34 am
Speaking of penalties, it is true that we got very less this year. On the top of my head, we got just four penalties this year (Fulham, ManC, Pompey and Birmingham) scoring three of them. Last year, I remember we were top of the list. I think we scored 10 penalties and missed 1 or 2 (notably Gilberto at OT).
May 21st, 2008 at 12:38 am
We score a penalty at Bolton too.
May 21st, 2008 at 1:03 am
we will be just fine
May 21st, 2008 at 5:39 am
All of Nipuna’s reasons is why I’ve been saying Villa is the right answer for so long (well about a month or so). He can provide all those things that are missing from the team, hence making the team more complete. It just makes sense.
When Henry was still here, everything went to him. I often said we need for the rest of the team to believe in themselves to win and not only look for Thierry to save the day all the time. Only van Persie had that self-belief to play his natural game with Henry on the pitch. After we qualified for the CL proper in 2006, I thought we’d turned a very significant corner. The team was forced to win without their talisman but as soon as Henry came back into the team, it was back to square one. It’s hard to blame the youngsters as they were playing with a living legend who was nothing short of incredible.
ctpa, thanks for the update on Oliveira. I didn’t know he was still a Milan player but it’s no surprise considering his ability. I still think we should inquire about his availability. Milan have made no secret that they are looking for another striker and even contemplating bringing Schevchenko back.
Oliveira might not be in Milan’s plans. Who sends a player with Oliviera’s experience and proven quality out on loan? They put their goal scoring hopes in the crap that is Gilardino, old man Inzaghi, and fat-ass Ronaldo. Even after the fat boy broke his knee, they still didn’t bring Oliveira back. It’s no mystery that Milan finished fifth. Personally, I rate Oliveira higher than either of those guys or even Pato. I guess what I’m saying is I’d be pissed if he goes somewhere like Spurs or Man City and we not even ask about him.
May 21st, 2008 at 10:03 am
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/main.jhtml?xml=/sport/2008/05/21/ufnnasri121.xml
Discuss!
May 21st, 2008 at 11:09 am
Flattering the lad a bit… the next Zizou?
Been watching footage, and I will say he looks class, great dribbler and sniper, but let’s be fair — there will never be another Zidane.
It bugs the f*** out of me when people run around labelling so and so the next so and so.
All that said, I’d be happy to have him. Sky (if you can trust anything they print) has AFC linked with another midfielder from PSG and a third division French player as well. I’d still like to see us add a DMF like Toure too…
May 21st, 2008 at 12:55 pm
Nipuna, I’m glad someone brought this point up.
I’ve been feeling this way for quite sometime, but I can’t see how this topic can be discussed without any racist or discriminatory stereotypes, and still can’t so i’ll just say it.
There are too many French-mentality type players in our squad. Your German friend calling Arsenal a bunch of pussies might have to do with how the French caved in during WWII while the English fought till the end and survived. I”m not sure if this is due to the circumstances at the time (the blitzkrieg tactics) or just the “survival” instinct of the French (if you can’t beat them, join them - at least you’ll live on).
I sometimes wonder if our players are thinking “if we don’t win this season, there’s always the next, so no point in me getting stuck in and getting myself injured for next season or for a transfer to another club”.
I seriously think we lacked the mental edge this season. When the decisions and luck went against us, our players are complaining like bitches instead of using the situation to form a siege mentality. All this talk of “we’ll win it for Edurado” after his was viciously maimed is just hot air…
I know what i’ve written thus far is pretty garbage (not very balanced and politically correct) but I don’t know any other way to express it so I’m just being direct.
We do need “CHARACTER” players, those that can withstand pressure, those that can enforce discipline within the team as a well as protect them. Someone like a Keano or a Viera type. Going into battle with these types of players as your captain would already give everyone a 15% mental boost, and you know you can do you job on the pitch and be protected by your leader, esp if the ref isn’t doing his job. I think a simple addition of a character player can help remove mental blocks from our young squad.
May 21st, 2008 at 1:02 pm
@ 22: agree completely
May 21st, 2008 at 1:52 pm
hmm… i dont agree with @22
How do you explain that the french consistently (well almost) do better than their french counterparts at the world cup then?
I think we didnt do well this season basically b/c of factors not related to player character. Man U and Chelski have more depth than Arsenal… Simple.
Chel$ki brought in Anelka in Jan, Mancs brought in that German-American-British guy (yeah Hargrieves) and those 2 portugese Ronaldo wannabees… and we brought who?
So when the going got tough, they could be more consistent ‘cos they had more class over all than we did not necessarily b/c of a lack of temperament or character on our part.
bbq me
May 21st, 2008 at 1:57 pm
>> How do you explain that the french consistently (well almost always) do better than their english counterparts at the world cup then?
May 21st, 2008 at 2:01 pm
Neova, I don’t know if it has anything to do with Gallic thing. Hleb, Eboue, etc are not exactly the strongest mentally. Walcott is English but nowhere near what Rooney was at his age. My feeling is that Wenger picks so many youngsters that it is not easy to judge their character/mental strength. That’s why, my question to him (asked in a previous article) was how he judges the mental strength of kids. Of course, some people (like Rooney) are strong right from an young age. But others (like Vieira) develop over time. Some of the current youngsters could become tough players over time.
May 21st, 2008 at 2:30 pm
This is something I have thought about as well, when Arsenal went through that bad patch from Feb 23 till that Bolton win. Even though I thought it had to do with mental weakness, it is not very clear cut. For example, Arsenal showed plenty of character to go through an entire season unbeaten. Then when they were cheated at Old Trafford, they went through a bad patch. After the Man U cheat loss, Arsenal were still clear at the top. But that bad patch in Nov 2004 allowed Chelsea to go 5 points clear when the two met at Highbury on Dec 10. If it were not for that ManU loss, I still feel Arsenal would have won the title that year. I always felt that the team got so emotionally wound up after that defeat that they took a long time to recover. In some ways, they never did recover but the team changed over the last 3 years.
The 2-2 Birmingham draw was the start of this year’s bad patch (or maybe that F.A Cup loss, I am not sure). What happened to the players there? The shock of the Eduardo injury, the Clichy mistake, the Gallas emotional outbreak? Were all the players (except Walcott) in a week emotional state and only Gallas expressed it? Or were the team fine but Gallas was the exception? I am not sure. But while it may be easy to make a generic statement about mental strength, it is difficult to explain how one incident can shake a player or team’s inner strength so much that they stop winning. It has to be an extraordinary incident I suppose. If the team was that mentally weak, they would have not won any games. If in all games in the season, Arsenal were in the lead and coasted through games, that would have made it easier to point towards mental weakness. But in plenty of games, Arsenal came back late and in most games, it was not easy for Arsenal to get results. Could it be just down to individual players stepping up, getting a winner and pulling the team out of weak spot? That can explain a few games but can it explain good results after 6.5 months?
As for Bayern. If Arsenal went through a bad patch in the league, Bayern’s form in the UEFA Cup was no better. They went 5 games without a win (4 ties and a loss). I am sure their fans will point towards their comeback against Getafe but that goes down to the two gifts Getafe gave up. Plus Bayern gave up late goals in the UEFA Cup and in the German Cup. No mental strength there either. Also, Aberdeen should have beaten Bayern at home but they got a wrong call. Could Bayern not handle the away fans? Did they fold mentally? Their fans will say No I am sure.
May 21st, 2008 at 2:41 pm
Nipuna @26, yeah I wonder about how one can judge mental strength when signing players. In regular job interviews, one always gets asked question how one handles pressure, stress, etc. Do these things brought up in soccer? Can one ask a new player about to sign what they would do if one of their top players gets injured horribly, the team gets a wrong decision in the last minute, how they would cope? I think players can still be judged to some extent on how they perform in certain games, under pressure. But even that may not be the final indicator. Like penalties. Even some of the best in the game have missed their kicks in critical shoot-outs. Can a player be called mentally weak because of that? Baggio missed his kick in 1994 but converted his kick in 1998. In 1994, he was only half-fit. Did that have something to do with it? He had to work hard to win his place back for the 1998 team, so that showed strength?
Holland have a bad record in penalties in Euros. down to just mental strength?
SEH, where are you to answer that?
May 21st, 2008 at 3:42 pm
Sachin, about penalties, missing one happens to everyone. It’s how you react that shows mental strength. Players like Bergkamp and Kanu stopped taking penalties after big misses. Lampard, Gerrard and Baggio continued and scored. That’s why they are on top. Holland repeatedly fail on penalties, so there is a weakness there.
As for the Birmingham incident, we don’t know what happened after that. I was disappointed at Gallas’ reaction (because it isn’t befitting an Arsenal captain), but what really affected us was his response. Since that game, he was continually poor (offside hand raising against Villa, poor heading against Chelsea, stupid handball at OT). Admittedly, the whole side was poor, but it is at that times you want your top players, the ones with mental strength to stand up. Gallas certainly didn’t.
May 21st, 2008 at 3:46 pm
A example to discuss is Nasri. He looks a very good talent. But at the same time, he seems inexperienced and unproven. What is his mental strength? I don’t know. Maybe he can handle it because he has played at a big French club. Maybe he will shine like the early Reyes. Maybe he will succumb to the physical nature of the premier league. Maybe he will take two seasons like Hleb to settle and then have one good season following which he will try to engineer a move to Real Madrid. Who knows? It’s not difficult to judge young players for pace, technique, skill, etc., but not easy to do the same for mental strength.
May 21st, 2008 at 3:48 pm
A team reflects their manager. And this current Arsenal side reflects him more than any other. Wenger has a history of resting on his laurels, taking too long to take action on certain things, inflexibilty etc. This team shows the same characteristics. And that’s why they fall short when it comes to the crunch.
Whether that is the players fault per se is hard to determine.
May 21st, 2008 at 4:16 pm
hehe… manc and chel$ki are showing the world the best of EPL thuggery!!!
May 21st, 2008 at 5:01 pm
They are the best two teams in Europe. Thuggery? No. Just good hard football, that nobody else could beat.
May 21st, 2008 at 5:36 pm
It’s an ex Arsenal player who misses the crucial penalty in the CL final.
May 21st, 2008 at 5:50 pm
Thank goodness. The first time in my life I have ever supported Man U.
Chelsea are cheats - its incredible.
I remember them using that “return ball” on us at Stamford Bridge just a minute before we conceded - and I remember being very bitter about it. Then in this game they do it repeatedly - and when Man U do it, 11 players surround him and start complaining. C-nts and bullies.
Ashley Cole’s and John Terry’s tears are very sweet to watch….LOL:
May 21st, 2008 at 6:01 pm
@22 — neova, first off, you’ve made two ignorant statements. Read a history book about WWII before you go spouting the same tired BS about the French army in WWII.
The French didn’t have much choice. London never saw a single German Tiger Tank rolling through it, the English citizenry could afford to wait it out in the Underground while the boys went off to fight. They had a channel between them and the Blitzkrieg. No one could stand up to the Germans ground assault. If not for the Russian winter sucking in Hitler’s forces, Operation Sealion never went through, and England only bore the brunt of the Luftwaffe.
Secondly, Henry, Pires, Vieira all featured on the last Arsenal club to win, and Wenger was the manager. Explain how the French game is inferior?
Ignorance begats more ignorance. Arsenal never recovered from Eduardo’s injury in February. It was the Francophonic nature of the club, it was a lack of veteran leadership. Use your head man.
May 21st, 2008 at 6:24 pm
exactly ryecatcher. mental toughness depends on individual, not a nation. and hell, didn’t France won WC 98, and Euro 2000? a mentally weak side be able to achieve that?
as for WWII, i wouldn’t take away the Brits’ back to wall fighting spirit, but let’s don’t forget the channel, if it’s so easy to cross, nobody would make a fuss about D-Day.
May 21st, 2008 at 7:26 pm
@36 Ryecather
yes, they are ignorant statements, and it’s hard not to express it any other way. It’s easy for us to debate about objective aspects of the games such as player’s skills, manager’s tactics, team formations, etc… but when it comes to evaluating the mental aspect (psychology) it’s very subjective and includes a lot of theories, guesses, and sometimes ignorant bs as you put it. it’s NOT a science.
I said there were too much french “mentality” at the club, which has been better summed up by Mazza @31 “A team reflects their manager” and yourself in your last sentence “It was the Francophonic nature of the club”.
I never said Arsenal can’t win with the “French” influences at the moment. I only doubt that we could achieve our potential when things don’t go exactly our way. When teams are out there to kick us off the pitch, refs not giving us decisions, and teams being negative tactically, we can’t seem to find a way out.
I’ll admit Edurado’s injury was horrific, but is that the REAL reason why we went downhill from there? It’s one player and one injury! I mean Walcott still managed to score two goals to put us ahead and despite Clichy gifting Brum that penalty we still drew the game - 1pt is hardly a disaster.
What bothered me is how apparently this incident has been used as an excuse by many to justify our poor run that was to follow. Does a soldier stop fighting after seeing their comrades die? You’d have to question the mental toughness of our team if the Eduardo injury was really affecting them for that long…
Attributing “weak minds” to “French influences” is intended on my part to raise a discussion, not to inflame, as the OP originally stated that this is often a very controversial topic (whenever the subject matter is subjective rather than objective). I cannot quantify how France won WC98 or Euro2000, nor can anyone really try to understand how Wenger’s team has thrice fucked up the lead in the league after having a comfortable lead (2007/8, 2004/5, 2002/3). Maybe the conditions were right for France and Arsenal when they won honours but can we really blame the conditions not being right for our failures?
maybe i’m too controversial saying the french mentality costs us, so I’ll just say it’s Wenger lack of a plan B (both in terms of the number of players and the type of players bought to cover for suspension, injuries, fatique) but this point has been raised numerous times before. What hasn’t been said was the “mental aspect” of the team which we know is weak but why? Is it just down to youth and inexperience? Do all young players easily give in or it is down to the individual or maybe is more prevalent in certain cultures (here’s where the ignorant, discriminatory views come in)?
Say that products made in China are crap is an observation, but when we start to question whether the French mentality is too weak for the prem it becomes ignorant. Hmmm….
May 21st, 2008 at 7:36 pm
I think France is in Euro2008.
Where’s England?
May 21st, 2008 at 8:15 pm
@38
Actually… that was a miscue on my part (typing faster than I can proofread… and this particular forum doesn’t let you edit when you’ve made a mistake)
Much to the contrary of what actually appeared, what I intended to say was:
It wasn’t the Francophonic nature of the club, it was a lack of veteran leadership.
Nationality doesn’t mean a hill of beans — and the French are typically rated in top 5 or 10 (depending on which ranking system you look at) and have won one WC and appeared in the finals twice in the past 10 years, I’d generally say they exhibit something the English don’t when it comes to knowing how to win.
And yes, Eduardo’s injury was a huge obstacle for a young squad with virtually no veteran leadership to overcome. Arsenal was four points — that’s 2 wins (take your pick of any 2 from 4 consecutive draws against Villa, Boro, Birmingham and Latics) from topping the table. Besides that, it was a campaigned also marred by injuries to Rosicky, Van Persie (not to mention Toure at the ANC) — regular members of the XI — for a large part of the season.
When you look at it, after losing Henry to Barca on the eve of the campaign, what this club was able to accomplish was simply astounding. A healthy club and it would have been AFC at the top by at least 3 points over United.
It amazes me that even after such a turnaround from the 2006-07 campaign that there are people here who sound like we may as well have been relegated. The future is full of promise, and we exceeded everyones expectations in August.
Like the Who sang: the kids are alright. Have faith in your club.
May 21st, 2008 at 10:06 pm
The national teams plays under strict international rules, Arsenal plays in the English Prem which is a lot more tolerant with physical play (fouls) that can be considered anti-football.
So I retract my original assertion that French mentality being the problem, but rather expand it to a bigger, less controversial question - are we buying enough players that are SUITED to the conditions of the premiership which includes both physical and more importantly mental toughness? Of course we’d hope that the rules and refs protect quality players, but what if decisions goes against us? How do we expect our players react? Maybe I should say that the manager’s vision extends to his team, and in this case we have a team of idealist who wants to play beautiful football and relies on the FA and the refs to do enforce to rule. Well, shit happens and when it happens we have no plan b because all our players “think” the same, react the same - all of them crying injustices instead of getting angry and use that energy to form a siege mentality. It’s happened too often with our players, and the term “le sulk” comes to mind. How did we get this reputation as a club? However we find it ignorant and incorrect, we are branded the way we are because of what had factually happened - we blew a lead and couldn’t figure a way out (mentally) when things was against us.
Can we deliver under pressure with our current team? If no, what needs to be added?
For me, let’s not add another “Wenger type” player because if we get into another rough patch, like players will get into “group think” and no one will think outside the box to lead the change. If it’s not a player then I hope we bring in Tony Adams who can instill some of that mentality (less the drunkenness part) into our squad.
May 21st, 2008 at 10:10 pm
One more general comment. Whenver Wenger quoted our comeback victory as indications of “mental toughness”, there could be another point of view.
We just simply continue to execute plan A until the opposition loses concentration or makes a mistake. That was the case with Bolton and many other inferior teams. It doesn’t quite work against tougher opposition like Chelsea and United. If so continue to keep doing what hasn’t already worked for 80 minutes of the game and then getting a lucky (but deserved) break which turned the game around and called that mental toughness, then I’m loss for words.
May 21st, 2008 at 10:52 pm
Well, Arsenal had 83 points this season.
4 shy of the leader.
Missing several major players for extended periods of time.
A team without a single English player in the starting XI.
In an English League.
Yeah, perhaps you’re right… maybe our players aren’t suited to play in the EPL.
Here’s an idea: how bout a little mental toughness from the supporters?
BTW nipuna — ironically, your German friend in his assessment illustrates another stereotype — Germans are a racially/ethnically intolerant people. Funny that he didn’t mention anything about the astonishing lack of Germans playing in the EPL in comparison to French and African players… they must be too tough for England. and oh yeah, he also forgot to mention that the German National team keeper was ousted from his starting role at Arsenal by a mediocre Spaniard.
May 22nd, 2008 at 6:43 am
If Eduardo wasnt hacked down we would have won the league. Its as simple as that.
Just four points off the top MINUS the ability of Eduardo to score goals even when we are playing crap.
Eduardo was the key and we lost our way after we lost him.
May 22nd, 2008 at 6:48 am
Guys, this is not meant to be a France vs Germany vs England debate. The intention of mentioning my friend’s nationality and club allegiance was to dispel the thought that these comments come from a naturally anti-Arsenal person like a ManU, Chelsea or Liverpool supporter. What almost everyone has missed is that my friend’s favorite club in England IS Arsenal. We watch a lot of Arsenal games together.
Keeping the debate to football related issues, Germany has always displayed great mental strength in international tournaments, especially in penalty shootouts. How else do you explain the fact that technically superior teams like France, Holland and Spain have far less silverware than Germany?
May 22nd, 2008 at 6:52 am
“German National team keeper was ousted from his starting role at Arsenal by a mediocre Spaniard.”
That is simply Wenger’s fault. Nothing more, nothing less. It is similar to Domenech dropping Pires, Trez and now Clichy. Clearly they are better players, but the coach has his own whims and fancies.
May 22nd, 2008 at 6:56 am
#44, you are quite right. But the debate is why did we fall apart after Eduardo got injured? Is it because of mental weakness or just plain injuries, fatigue, etc.? The coming season will tell us a lot.
ManU have just won the double. You can be guaranteed that debt or no debt, they will strengthen the team with big money - another striker and defender. Everyone thinks their team is old, but that applies only to Giggs, Scholes and VDS. Others are all young or even better - at the ripe age. The bar will be set higher.
Arsenal are already weaker. Flamini has left and Hleb is worse off. How will we respond? If it’s like 2004, it will be great. Like Josh says, time always tells.
May 22nd, 2008 at 8:24 am
Once again a player gets injured and we go way overboard in terms of his importance to the team. How many goals did Eduardo score in the league? Four? I think Bendtner had a better goal ratio per minute.
If you took away that offside goal at Man City, his last goal was against West Ham on New Years day. He played extremely averagely in home games against Newcastle, Milan, and Blackburn, where Wenger seemed to shunt back to the left wing again.
At the time of his injury people were more bothered about the effect of mental trauma not the loss of him as a player. That’s because he wasn’t particularly playing well at the time.
There’s the argument that he helped Ade score goals but I think Ade’s little purple patch was well over before the injury. He was playing like a sack of shite weeks beforehand and the slump was inevitable.
I think Eduardo would have scored one or two more league goals and helped us to one more win against Wigan or maybe Boro. But then we would still have finished two points behind.
May 22nd, 2008 at 11:03 am
nipuna, #44 is Fred being sarcastic….
You’ve completely overlooked the other two thirds of what I pointed out: a few other regular starters who missed good chunks of the season: Rosicky and Van Perise, and Toure missed time as well.
And for the record, I never said it was missing Eduardo’s goal scoring that hurt us. He wasn’t even a regular starter.
The immediate effect of Eduardo’s injury was the shock to the club. Apparently, anyone who can’t understand that has led a trauma free life without any real adversity to overcome… or you’ve had plenty of support when/if it happened. You’re lucky.
But that injury bugged me more than a little bit and I wasn’t even on the pitch to see it. Reminded me of when my brother broke his arm in a similar fashion…
and I’m now in my mid-30’s, have served in the Infantry, and have seen quite a few fucked up things happen. You’re all a bit quick to write the gravity of that day in Birmingham off.
The title of this thread asked if Arsenal lacked leaders and winners — not if Arsenal had a weak mentality due to too many French players.
Again: Someone, ANYONE, point out where the veteran leadership is on this club? It’s not the ethnicity of the club (name a Big Four team not loaded with internationals). It’s veteran leadership.
United has Giggs and Neville. Chelsea has Terry and Lampard. Liverpool has Gerard and Carragher. We’ve got… Gallas, Toure and Gilberto?
Never minding the vice-captains, Gallas isn’t it. As if his reaction in Birmingham was a surprise to anyone then you haven’t been watching football very long. The guy has the maturity level of a five year old. He’s been at Arsenal for two seasons and is wearing the armband. Toure and Gilberto? They’ve been there the longest, but are they leaders? That’s the only reason I can see for them being vice-captains.
This is a team predominantly made up of guys under 25. Without leadership, a little adversity can do a lot more damage than one may imagine.
As a tactician, talent scout and general football genius, Wenger is undeniably a legend. What his one real weakness appears to be though, is his lacking in ability to appoint field generals. Vieira was the las Captain we who wore the mantle well. Even Henry, for all his studliness, wasn’t that guy.
That’s what the club is missing. The million dollar question is: where do you find it? Fabregas or Clichy may be the next choice. But they’ve still got some growing to do.
May 22nd, 2008 at 11:38 am
#47 Exactly. How can one injury cost us the season? Not only would this make us mentally weak it would also make us look ridiculous to cite this as the official reason why we fell apart.
We fell apart because of many reasons that made player unavailable, injuries, fatique, suspensions, amongst others. It could have been mitigated somewhat had we not rested on our laurels and reinforced the squad in Jan window. Having a big squad doesn’t gurantee success, but having a small squad limits your chances for sure.
Aside from lacking mental toughness, we also lost focus. I think the players were more caught up in the whole conspiracy theory that the FA and refs don’t protect Arsenal and spent too much time criticizing Martin Taylor and Wenger’s comments went overboard and now the entire team is in confusion - some players developed a mental block going into challenges, some continue to bitch about the injustice, while the rest are trying to withstand the onslaught of criticism condemning Wenger’s call for Taylor to be banned. Almost no one was focused on what was important - get a result for the next game.
May 22nd, 2008 at 3:21 pm
Fred isn’t being sarcastic.
July 1st, 2008 at 9:21 am
well arsenal team at present would be bayern no problem , if arsenal are pussys bayern must be a bunch of girls. fabregas can take penalties under pressure we need to get a good striker like villa along those lines