Jun 29
74 Responses to “Euro 2008 final & other football chat”
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Arsenal America
Official United States Supporters Club of Arsenal FC
Arsenal America Events
Arsenal America Dinner
In Honor of Danny Karbassiyoon
January 25, 2008
Washington DC
See photos Here!
June 29th, 2008 at 2:46 pm
Cesc is starting the final…
June 29th, 2008 at 3:46 pm
@LDE, i read u mentioned about the new format of AA on previous thread being slower…. mine one actually got faster! weird! at the past if there’s an over 200 comments thread, it would take a while to load, now it’s much faster.
June 29th, 2008 at 4:39 pm
Not often in a major tournament, the team who performed best and played the best football won. well done Spain!
June 29th, 2008 at 6:07 pm
Interesting article from 2005/06 about a certain Emmanuel Adebayor at Monaco. As I said, is there a bigger vermin in football than this guy? Surprised Wenger lowered moral standards for this player to cheapen the shirt.
Skysports wrote:
The Togolese star is in conflict with the club over a new deal and he has stated his desire to quit the club.
However, the 21-year-old has three years remaining on his current deal and Monaco are refusing to budge over the player’s demands.
Monaco have also grown increasingly annoyed at Adebayor’s stance and as a result have told him he will not play in their league opener in Nancy and they have sent him back to The Principality.
“Indeed, we asked him to go back to Monaco,” confirmed Monaco vice-chairman Gerard Brianti.
“It is a decision from the chairman Michel Pastor and the coach. There are things difficult to accept.”
“I don’t like the word sanction, but I prefer to talk about refocusing.”
“He is not a 21-year-old kid and is not a world champion that could allow himself to do anything.”
“He still has three years remaining on his contract, and we made him a proposition we consider very correct.”
“The officials have always been open to talk, but Emmanuel has lost sense of reality.”
“A decision will be made coordinated with the coach. He could remain on the bench for three years
June 29th, 2008 at 6:48 pm
“Surprised Wenger lowered moral standards for this player to cheapen the shirt.”
Agree 100%. The same can speak for Hleb.
June 29th, 2008 at 6:55 pm
More bullshit Andez. Your on a roll.
June 29th, 2008 at 8:09 pm
Everyone else is vermin apart from your precious Hlebbie.
June 29th, 2008 at 7:06 pm
bullshit??? didn’t i write i agree with u 100%? so u mean u were talking about bullshit??!!
or u mean Ade has a lower moral standard asking for more $$, while Hleb has a higher moral standard going to Milan eating icecream behind Arsenal’s back?….
wouldn’t that make it a DOUBLE moral standard for you?
June 29th, 2008 at 7:25 pm
I find most transfer saga’s ugly. Claims of love and affection, the loyalty argument……capped by the duplicity of the fans who are only happy when their club is the ‘winner’ in the deal.
As important as money will be in the thinking of Flamini, Hleb and Adebayor I think there is more to it as well.
Let’s remember that all 3 have been evaluating things throughout the season. They’ve been weighing up the remuneration and immediate potential of this team versus trying something new. It’s as simple as that.
Take Flamini. A limited yet very valuable player. He had just cemented his place in the team in his preferred position. He had 2 great mates beside him Fab and Hleb who offered what he lacked. He was at Arsenal who are now a massive club and very stable. There was a lot to like and a lot to suggest that staying was a good choice. But he didn’t. He thought it through, and he does seem to be a clear thinker (maybe some would say cold), and he decided to go. Yes for better money, but I wonder if he also predicted that Arsenal in their current state are unlikely to be a winner soon.
Now Hleb and Flam are best mates, so no doubt they talked about how they felt and tossed around ideas. And with Flamini following through on his decision and leaving that will have encouraged Hleb. For me Hleb is a weak player. I think he lacks confidence and that is why he doesn’t shoot and doesn’t attack the box. So he is probably thinking that he better cash in on his current ‘profile’. He thinks a move to a major club like Real or Barca probably won’t present itself again…..and he’s probably right. So he wants to go.
Now Adebayor is a tricky character to manage no doubt. A huge season for him, leads the line, ‘replaces Henry’, 30 goals, goes to his head too much. But he’s street-wise - I’m guessing that he sees Flam going, Hleb wants to go, and Wenger signs a 17 year old. Adebayor for me would process things like Flam, and say what chance of us being successful soon? Ironically the fact that Wenger signs guys just like Adebayor counts against Arsenal when that very same player becomes a ‘performer’. Why? Because players are happy for Wenger to give them a first-team chance but when they reach a good level of performance they want to be in a team capable of winning! Is that hypocritical - you bet ya! But that’s reality. Adebayor and Flamini want to win - not so much Hleb (IMO). So that’s my take.
I reckon Wenger HAS to get this team winning, otherwise this will be a recurring pattern that will then eventually self-implode with Wenger leaving/stepping aside. But a ‘win’ would hugely help abate the frustration.
June 30th, 2008 at 10:17 am
Giving young players a chance to prove themselves then moving onto bigger things is normally associated with smaller clubs with financial constraints. Let the small teams give youngsters 1st team experience, and when they’ve done well, the small club will receive a massive transfer fee to a bigger club.
Wenger might be a genius for spotting young talent that costs pennies, but occassionally you will end up with an ungrateful SOB that demands instant stardom and salary increase after only 1 season of success.
The Anelka’s, Flamini’s, and possibly Helb’s and Ade’s (adn Diarra being the WORST example) will come and go. What we should remember is we have players like Cesc, Clichy, Sagna, Toure, etc. that are more sensible. These players will probably leave eventually as well, but probably more likely when they’re in their late twenties to get one last big contract or just go for a different challenge. At least with these players, they’ve given us a good few years of service which i consider as repayment of their debt to the club for giving them the chance to develop.
Again this problem is a bit unique to us, because we field way more youngsters than other big clubs, and those other clubs are used to buying success anyways so losing a player here and there is nothing. For us, we feel a bit more short changed because us supporters have been patient with the manager and the club for their youth policy and would hate for these players to go when they start thinking big $ and instant stardom.
June 29th, 2008 at 8:00 pm
Too bad. Let’s just get max money, move him on our terms and not his. As I said, f**k him.
Nice to see Spain win playing “Wenger ball”. There was some excellent one touch triangle passing by Spain to spring players past the FBs. If Lahm is not injured, then he got replaced after being “beaten like a rented mule”. Time and time again, Germany’s defense was a day late and a dollar short. Why was Ballack allowed to kick people all day? Looks like he’s picked up some of the finer points of English football while at Chelsea. Nice reflex save from Lehmann on the deflection in the 1st half.
No surprise that Germany lost. The pundit majority picking them can join the the German stars (Klose, Schweinsteiger, Frings, Lahm, Ballack, Gomez, Podolski, and Metzelder) in ignominy.
Chelsea in for Robinho. Does he play like he does at RM, confined to the (L) side or will he be given free rein like he has for Brazil. A lot of Chelsea MF toes will be getting stepped on. Ballack, Lampard (oh, he’s off to Inter?) or wonder boy Mikel who now says he’s almost as good as Ballack. Good one there mighty Obi Wan.
Do we bank the Ade fee or pay down some debt. We should leave little for a transfer or two shouldn’t we? A serviceable striker like a Santa Cruz? A DM, Veloso maybe? Frankly, Veloso does not spin my wheels and he’s not even a starter for Portugal. I say Wenger should rethink the Song card for DM.
Ben Arfa declares on OM TV that he is a Olympique Marseille player. The next domino will be the Nasri announcement. Finally!
June 29th, 2008 at 8:03 pm
Kiwi,
Hard to win with a revolving door.
You basically need the core group of players to be stable for a few years, so they can gel… and add in the right spare parts.
At days end, you also need players who WANT to be at the club.
Thats why if Ronaldo REALLY wants to leave United, and his heart isn’t in playing there… do they have a choice?
Will he play 100% with his heart on his sleeve? or will he sometimes go thru the motions and bear ill will towards his employers?
If Ade and Hleb want to go, then … they gotta go… we get a good fee for them, and they are off.
We simply need to replace them with talented players who want to be here.
Thats always been the question. We sell off players, and then don’t always bring in enough replacement-wise… and the longer the spell without a trophy goes… the tougher it will be to bring in players and hold onto our best players.
Hell. You can win everything, like United… and still players want to play… where they want to play.
Wenger is correct in that the balance has totally shifted in soccer. Players rule the roost now, and the clubs are somewhat at their mercy.
June 30th, 2008 at 1:42 pm
Yeah, but with United, they just go buy a replacement part. If Ronaldo leaves, someone else will step right in. It’s United. They always come up with something.
At the end of the day, these guys are all a bunch of greedy dumb jocks being manipulated by greedy agents. No different in any team-sports league anywhere else.
June 29th, 2008 at 8:06 pm
Adebayor roll call of shame:
Metz- Has to train away from the first team squad because of his destabilising influence on the team. Promptly shipped off to Monaco.
Monaco- Demands improved terms on his contract despite not hitting a barn door. For more read above article.
Arsenal- Arsenal rescue him with his career going nowhere. He hangs on Henry’s coat tails and decides being best buddies with Thierry is a good way to elevate his position. He even copies his chest-thumping antics, difference being that Henry’s were genuine while Adebayor’s were contrived to the extreme. Claims he rejected move to Man United, even when he was still incapable of hitting a barn door. Consistent claims of him being an arrogant person, not short on confidence. NEVER celebrates anyone else’s goals. Pissed off that someone else gets the attention no doubt.
Headbutts Nicklas Bendtner and says ‘I;m only on because your shit’. After disappearing during the most important part of the season he comes out with his recent comments, which show the man for what he really is. After one decent season and getting a new contract last summer.
Alex Hleb roll call:
Stuttgart- Urm.. ..Urm……Okay, kills someone in a car crash. I’m guessing it wasn’t intentional.
Arsenal- Not a peep for two and half years. Gets no plaudits and doesn’t court any either. In March 2008 apparently goes behind Arsenal’s back to talk about a transfer to Inter. In a recent interview he claims he was picking up tickets. Now, with his transfer to somewhere imminent, and in a fairly low key interview, I have not got any previous evidence to not believe him. I can understand others may have a different view, but I give him the benefit of the doubt. Maybe it wasn’t really his fault, maybe it was. Inconclusive. He then says nothing but respectul things about Arsenal but also admits he is open to a new challenge. At 27, this is completely understandable, especially in view that Adebayor is 24 and joined Arsenal six months after Hleb.
So Andez, quite a difference there.
June 29th, 2008 at 8:11 pm
No matter how you try to twist it Hleb is also “vermin” … your new favorite word!
June 29th, 2008 at 8:25 pm
He’s a “player” in every sense of the word. What’s to believe? This IS a blog after all and not a criminal court. We don’t need the highest quality of evidence to convict, all we need to know is what flavor was the gelato and did he present a receipt to claim his meal allowance. Now that would require a big set of balls on Hleb.
June 29th, 2008 at 8:22 pm
No, your doing the twisting.
June 29th, 2008 at 8:25 pm
I don’t know if I were drunk, or the author of that article was drunk, or Adebayor himself was drunk…. or simply someone made the whole thing up…. anyway, when I read that quot “I will play like Thierry Henry when I m paid like Thierry Henry” from Adebayor just couldn’t help but laugh.
Yes, there’s always a chance Adebayor get paid like Thierry Henry, but to actually PLAY like Thierry Henry?…. NOT in a million years.
Perhaps since his hair had cut short , his head looks bigger…. Or… he’s head is now actually getting bigger??
Now i always acknowledged his SIGNIFICANCE to Arsenal, but at the same time I always believe Arsene Wenger’s unique playing system that makes individual player look better than than really are.
I m not saying that because feel sour of Adebayor-gate. Last summer, I said the same thing about Thierry Henry, that he would struggle at Barcelona. Not that he’s getting older. 29 is hardly an old man.
but at Arsenal we play TEAM football, and Henry always enjoyed a luxury to have a bunch of talented, intelligent, unselfish teammates around him.
now Bergkamp, Freddie, Pires the likes may have gone. Our system remains. Cesc, Hleb, Walcott, Eboue, Rosicky…. everyone would look for Adebayor last season. and we built our attack around him. be it Cesc’s through pass, all the widemen’s crosses. without them, he would not have been a 30 goals goalscorer.
the most important thing, as stated before, for a striker, is that FAITH from his manager.
Now, ONE season after scoring 30 goals, Adebayor believes he can be as good as Henry?
If he believes Arsenal under Wenger is not being AMBITIOUS enough by not signing enough good players. Let me just reminds him - last summer when Henry left, how many ppl actually believed Adebayor would step up? When talking about Henry’s REPLACEMENT, ppl were talking about some big name signing, or even Eduardo. and van Persie being our main HOPE in the summer. NOT Adebayor.
Arsene Wenger could have easily brought in a big name striker. Guess what would happen then? Adebayor might not even be able to earn a starting place. And it’s exactly this PRESUMSON that Wenger is NOT AMBITIOUS enough to give Adebaoyor chances a regular first team place, and a chance to perform.
So IMO, he has no ground at all to complain about that so-called “lack of ambition” from the manager.
June 29th, 2008 at 9:05 pm
Isn’t that the issue Andez? Players think about self 100%. When they are developing they want game-time and a managers patience to allow them to develop. But when they mature and become a performer their whole outlook changes. Now they want to make the most of their current ability and they start weighing Arsenal versus other ‘opportunities’. Does it seem a tad ungrateful? If Wenger gave Hleb 2 seasons to develop shouldn’t he at least give him 2 good seasons of return? Yes, but it doesn’t work that way. Adebayor gets big ideas after 1 good season. Players are singularly selfish and pushed by even more cynical agents. Then again, look at Bert, he got shunted to the end of the midfield queue pretty quickly. Maybe managers/clubs aren’t morally perfect either.
June 29th, 2008 at 9:24 pm
naturally kiwi. this is a dog eat dog world. nobody is morally perfect. if a player wants big money, fair enough. we fans, want loyalty. so i think it’s also fair enough for us to give them sticks. afterall, for every Adebayor, Hleb, Flamini, we got Sagna, Clichy who just signed an extension. and nobody would knock on them.
important thing here is - why r u putting the blame on the manager? he decided to go for youth a few years back, and he sticks with it. And because of this same PLAN, we have got Adebayor, Hleb, Flamini the likes emerging as STARS. And we are getting very close to winning the title.
Yes, in his plan, he did miscalculate one factor - players’ GREED. but that’s hardly his false isn’t it?
so during all these transfer sagas, let not lose sight on who’s the guilty party. And FANS do play an important part. as players today do not dare to ask for a move whenever they feel like to (well, at least not all of them) part of it due to the fans pressure. they afraid to face the fans if the deal somehow does not go through. that’s why the came up with all those WHYs that they had to leave.
if you take away that, and when fans start to ACCEPT their behaviour, or start diverting blame on someone else, trust me, by then the whole transfer system would be like non-existence. nothing is gonna stop them by then.
June 29th, 2008 at 9:37 pm
I agree with much of what you say Andez. I said above that I find most transfer saga’s ugly. So I certainly don’t endorse players and agents greed. But I think we need to accept the reality of the situation when strategising how to build a winning team. Wenger has always tried to engender a high level of player loyalty. It worked in the past because Arsenal won things and the players believed they would win (despite some misgivings at times…..look no further than Vieira). I don’t think you can expect ‘loyalty’ without the hope of winning.
“important thing here is - why r u putting the blame on the manager?”
What are you referring to Andez? Where have I blamed Wenger, and for what?
June 29th, 2008 at 8:29 pm
Funny thing is, if the Spanish team somehow represented Arsenal in the EPL, they would have 70-80% of the Arsenal fans at the Emirates pulling their hair out with their patient, probing football. And yet these same fans will be saying how great Spain were at the Euros for the next few weeks. The emotional attachment of supporting a team retards their footballing intelligence and they can’t understand why players aren’t direct all the time or shoot all the time. For instance Iniesta is similar to Hleb and has the same ability to frustrate, yet I bet you the same fans that can’t stand Hleb think the sun shines out of Iniesta’s arse.
Iniesta’s stats for last season:
4 goals
4 assists.
June 30th, 2008 at 10:34 am
exactly. Just except that spain has a better GK and a forward that don’t require 10 chances to put one on target =)
and TBH, spain has a lot more depth than Arsenal in the tournement, it almost seems as if it didn’t matter who was on the pitch, every player was capable of getting the job done.
Germany played more like ManU. Direct, up the wings, crosses in, strong in the air. While this time around technical ability (Spain) won over directness, we cannot deny that from a consistency perspective, Germany has won more titles than Spain. Similarity of that between ManU and Arsenal? You bet!
June 29th, 2008 at 9:21 pm
Something to put our minds at ease. We’re going to sign Amaury Bischoff. A 21 yr old midfielder with a recent horrific history of injury. Should fit in with RvP and Rosicky nicely
June 29th, 2008 at 11:15 pm
lol lol lol lol ….
June 29th, 2008 at 11:46 pm
I’m really pleased for Fabregas. The recognition that comes from a good Euro tournament and the feeling of winning is really good for the young man.
June 29th, 2008 at 11:59 pm
I am delighted for Spain and Fabregas.
Ballack must be the unluckiest player around. CL loss with Leverkusen and Chelsea, missed WC final through suspension, final day EPL loss and now Euro final loss.
June 30th, 2008 at 12:41 am
not to forget final seconds Bundesliga loss in 02 and german fa cup final loss as well…
i cant think of a player more unlucky.
June 30th, 2008 at 1:15 am
Oh yeah, triple loss in 2002 and again now.
June 30th, 2008 at 10:38 am
2006. Henry lost the CL with us followed by World Cup loss two months later.
And the sad part is that he’ll probably be one of the best Strikers in the world without a CL or a WC/Euro (getting one in ‘98/’00 sitting on the bench doesn’t count in my view)
June 30th, 2008 at 12:02 am
I wonder if a lot of this ‘unsettled’ nonsense would happen if we had a strong club captain. I know it was a different era and things have changed, but I think back to Tony Adams and the way he ‘enforced’ the managers wishes in the dressing room. Roy Keane also did that for Fergie.
A strong club captain who has a strong sense of commitment to the club for the long-term is invaluable. They honour the club and expect that from the other players. The Adams and Keane’s demonstrate their commitment to the club through their own actions and this ‘rubs off’. Can you imagine what Adams would say to Adebayor or Hleb? What advice would he have passed on to Flam? No guarantee it would change someones mind, but it would certainly set a tone.
I don’t put Gallas in that mold. I even question how much standing he has with the players.
Sadly, as great a player as Vieira was, I think the seeds of our captaincy demise started with Vieira. He ‘played coy and clever’ with the club each off-season. I hated that from him as captain. Hillwood said as much when he left, he said “Vieira tweaked Wenger’s tail once too often”. The captains attitude rubs off, for good and bad. No surprise then that Henry, Cole, Edu, felt more at liberty to ‘consider their opportunities’.
June 30th, 2008 at 12:43 am
I think this goes beyond the captain. In Adams and Keane’s days the clubs had a great deal of power over the player.
Infact prior to the Bosman ruling a club still owned a player even when the contract had expired !!!!
Now not only has the pendulum swung fully the other way, there is FAR more money in the game. Any captain now will be looking more to cover his own ass and increase his own wages !!!
June 30th, 2008 at 1:48 am
Certainly agree in part Fred, we are in a new era. I still rate the value of a captain who esteems the club and role he has whilst commanding respect. They exist, they aren’t the norm, but they exist in all professional sports I follow and when you get one they’re invaluable.
June 30th, 2008 at 10:41 am
I think it has to do with the crazy TV money. Agents knows the money is there in the club, and when you have underskilled, overpaid players in the Prem, any Arsenal player would be thinking “if that shit players like Randy Savage gets £50,000 a week playing for relegated-DERBY then why should I settle for the same as a starting 11 playing for Arsenal chasing after league titles, domestic cups and in Europe?”
June 30th, 2008 at 1:07 am
A few years ago, Rummenigge at Bayern Munich said something like if someone wants to be paid like Shevchenko (regards to his AC Milan form), then they have to play like Shevchenko. His comment was directed at Pizarro who wanted to be paid more before he was allowed to leave for Chelsea.
Now, if someone wants to be paid like Thierry Henry, then they have to play like Henry. Can someone text this to Adebayor on his cell? I know Ade exchanges messages with Henry on his cell but I don’t have the cell # of either player. Ofcourse, it is a good thing I don’t have Ade’s cell # right now as I might not be too polite to him.
So I look at Ade’s situation. He scores 30 goals and narrowly misses out on the league title along with a chance at the Champions league. What does he do? Thinks this is the time to demand a bigger salary because he may not get the chance to score as many goals again and if he can get better money, then he won’t have to try as hard for the next season. I am grateful for the 30 goals he scored but I can’t forget that 6 of them came against Derby, the worst team in the history of the premier league. Honestly, a person with any character would have been determined to work harder next season and try to better his tally and lead the team to victory. And Arsenal have taken care of their special players quite nicely. When Bergkamp was only offered one year extensions, he was still the highest paid player on the team. Henry got a very nice contract in order to keep him in the team. So if Adebayor wants that expensive contract, he should prove to Arsene and Arsenal that the team can’t do without him and make himself invaluable.
Ofcourse, Adebayor is probably thinking what more can he prove? Didn’t he score 30 goals, 24 of them in the league? He scored some superb goals, came up with new dance celebrations, sacrificed his hair in order to improve for the team and even tried to kick-start Bendtner into performing better. In fact one could argue that Ade went out of his way to motivate Bendtner because nowhere in Ade’s contract does it say that he should try to serve as a role model for other players in the team. So he probably thinks he has nothing else to prove or even offer. The thought of winning trophies probably does not cross his mind because he is a superstar. So why shouldn’t he be paid like one?
The problem isn’t whether Arsenal is a big club or not for Adebayor. The problem is that Arsenal are not big enough for Ade’s ego, which if one is to believe the comments, is so huge that only a club that is willing to pay him an Henry style salary can satisfy. When Ade had problems with Togo back in the African Cup of Nations 2 years ago, I gave him the benefit of doubt because he had just signed for Arsenal and plenty of other players had problems with bonuses with their national teams. But this article seems to have been a clear alarm bell:
Togo striker Emmanuel Adebayor said he intended leaving the African Nations Cup on Sunday after a row with coach Stephen Keshi.
The new Arsenal signing refused to play in the starting line-up for the World Cup finalists in Saturday’s 2-0 defeat by the Democratic Republic of Congo in their opening Group B match.
Additionally the Congolese said they had been on strike for most of the day, intent on not playing the match unless they received promised bonus payments.
Captain Lomana LuaLua told reporters they had only agreed to go ahead after a personal phone call from the country’s president, Joseph Kabila.
An agitated Adebayor said he had been dropped from the Togo side on Saturday morning, accusing Keshi of trying to pressure him into using him as his agent.
“I told him no, I don’t work that way. Then later he said he wanted me to play but I refused.”
Adebayor, the top African goalscorer in last year’s World Cup qualifiers, had been included in the starting line-up, released to the media one hour before the match.
When he did not appear, a handwritten statement handed out by Confederation of African Football press officials after the start said the change was made because of a “digestive problem”.
Adebayor came on in the 59th minute for Adekanmi Olufade, who had initially not been included in the starting lineup
“I am going home, I want to see my mother in Lome who is ill,” he said before refusing to answer any more questions.
Earlier, Keshi also denied any stomach problems had been behind the sudden change of starting line-up.
“This morning I decided not to play him. He wasn’t happy. I then changed my mind and told him he was going to start but he said he wouldn’t play.
“The problem was that he wasn’t in training. I took a decision and he didn’t like it and he decided to stay on the bench. He didn’t want to start.”
Togo’s Austrian-based defender Eric Akoto said he was among five players who had pleaded with Adebayor to play.
June 30th, 2008 at 10:44 am
One more thing: Henry didn’t get £120,000 a week only after becoming winning the golden boot 5 years in a row and consistently scoring 20+ goals every season for about 6-7 years.
In life, you get PAID once you prove you can do the job CONSISTENLY, only idiots clubs will pay up only after seeing success after one season!
I do hope we get £30m for Ade and use that money for 2-3 players to add to our squad depth.
June 30th, 2008 at 2:17 am
here’s what i believe the whole Adegate:
About a month ago, when that initial piece of rumor “pay me or i will leave” (before Ade came out the next day and claimed it’s all “rubbish”) surface, Adebayor had already alerted other big clubs that he’s AVAILABLE.
yet his intention was all about $$$, getting a pay rise.
Arsenal, naturally, concerned, so AW had a meeting with Adebayor and eventually agreed to give him a pay rise to 60k.
that’s also around the time Peter Hill-Wood came out and slamed the players today being “greedy”.
knowing that he’s about to get an 100% pay rise (from 30k to 60k), Ade again came out and denied he wanted to leave. at least i remember reading that.
until AC Milan (and later Barca) stepped in, and somehow, (i don’t know HOW as by rule clubs are not supposed to talk to players without contacting the selling club first), Ade learned that he could get 120k at AC Milan. So here comes all the pay me like Henry rumors once again.
so when the media asked if AW would talk to Ade, Wenger said no, cos he already had a talk with Adebayor and thought they already had an agreement (that 60k deal). And I think deep inside AW must be fed up with Adebayor.
Of course, this is only my wild guess. maybe it’s just something i made up. but that’s what i believe, after linking up all the events, comments, rumors together.
June 30th, 2008 at 2:58 am
And also the fact that Wenger came out right at the end of the season and said that Adebayor would have to continue to work hard in order to improve. I found it very strange that Wenger had to come out and say that to one of the hardest working players on the pitch. Think the first signs of a possible problem were reflected there.
I personally feel that Wenger will not be too disappointed to see the back of Adebayor after all this..and i still think that he rates Bendtner as a possible star. I remember the headbutting incident with Ade and Bendtner..at that time I guess a lot of us assumed that it was Bendtner’s fault…..I’m really not sure now. And as I said before…i won’t be unduly worried if we sell him and utilise the proceeds to get a good player in. I think the Arsenal squad will improve overall.
The worst part of this whole thing …is him saying one thing in an official press conference…and then you have all this quotes in different papers saying something the complete opposite.
Adebayor is a clear case of the Arsenal team making a player look better than he actually is. If Milan/Barca are willing to risk 30million plus 120k/w (4-5 year deal) contract on a player who has just one good season….i think we should definetly sell. I know that Wenger will have to change his gameplan…and i think we might possibly revert to the pacy counterattacking style we had before Adebayor came into the team….after a long time Wenger has assembled possible first teamers with serious pace on the flanks (walcott/vela/traore/nasri) ..combine this with a a good midfielder (Fabregas) ..a flair player/striker (RVP) …a big center forward (Bendtner) and we have a team which can perform well in different situations. We will obviously need a experienced partner to RVP who is a clinical finisher..i don’t think we should have a lot of trouble in finding one …if we get the transfer amount that is being quoted for Adebayor.
June 30th, 2008 at 10:47 am
And how Ade said that it’s not about money is quite silly.
“I grew up in Togo without money, so playing has always been about the love of football”
Isn’t playing sports the easiest way to get out of poverty because it pays big money?
Ade’s got to come up with a better lie.
June 30th, 2008 at 2:21 am
What do you guys think of Cristoph Metzelder?
He is currently playing second fiddle to Pepe and Cannavaro at Madrid after a 4 month injury absence.
The German defence wasnt exactly water proof but I think he is somebody who might prosper in the EPL. At age 27, he is young-ish, sort of, for a CB plus he is a monstrous 6 foot 5 inches. He is very mobile too and I have never seen anyone beat him in the air at least.
I think we can get him for less than 10 mill - selling Sendy and Hoyte will cover that cost.
Plus if we bring in a 6 foot 3 Yaya Toure in CM…that would be a good injection of real power in the rear end of our base.
First choice pairing of Gallas and Metzelder, with backup of Toure and Djorou seems decent enough - on paper anyway.
June 30th, 2008 at 10:52 am
I like Metzelder. Good in the air, strong on the ground, but a tad slow which means he has to compensate for it in his positioning which is only adequate. But a lot more composed than Gallas or Toure. Having a calm CB organizing defense definitely helps. The only fear is that with so many quick strikers in the prem, lacking quickness is a minus for him.
I would still buy him because our current line of backup CB’s don’t give me too much confidence (Djourou, Senderos, Song?)
June 30th, 2008 at 12:46 pm
Well, all big lads are usually slow-ish. But he is no slower than Campbell was in his prime … and he is definitely faster than John Terry and our dear Sendy!
In general I think he is most likely to suffer in the hands of Spanish strikers than with the average EPL strikers. While people like Terry and Vidic might actually be worse off in Spain because over there it doesnt really matter if you are big, strong in the air, calm and collected - there they face a lot of small, nippy strikers who hit the deck frequently and to great advantage.
Gallas, Metzelder should work.
June 30th, 2008 at 5:47 am
I’m less inclined to demonise Adebayor.
Strikers are ALWAYS the best paid and the most sought after commodity. That ability to score is, when all said and done, the most valuable of skills. And strikers remuneration levels escalate expotentially not in linear fashion - just because we got him cheaply and perhaps offered to double his remuneration doesn’t mean that was outlandish or even adequate. Just remember all footballers are paid ridiculous sums.
He hasn’t played well for only one season, he has contributed since his arrival 2 and a half years ago due to his appetite for hard work. And last season - he carried the whole jolly attack ALL season post-Henry. Ponder for a minute just where we would have been without his contribution. Time after time Wenger cobbled together another attacking formation and the only player that gave it a defined shape was Adebayor. At the same time refresh your memory of just how callow Bendtner looked, particularly when the heat was on.
Those who think just flick him and take the money might eat their words when Wenger fails to sign anything like a true ‘replacement’. We’ll then see whether the bevy of young players cluttering the squad have the maturity and ability to provide goals. We’ll also see a return to a softer looking line-up, no Flam and no Ade, lots of smallish players playing pretty football.
The EPL/CL/FAC/LC is a long hard unforgiving campaign. It shouldn’t be a surprise that those players who do perform at a good level over the season are usually ‘mature’, not old, not superstars, but they have the blend of experience, physical robustness and personal maturity to withstand the pressure. Look at last seasons performers; Adebayor, Hleb, Flam, Fab, Sagna, Clichy, Gallas. Fab was the youngest and he had FOUR full EPL seasons under his belt.
PS. Fred, Toure is not a backup.
June 30th, 2008 at 6:19 am
@Kiwi …i think the point of debate is not what Adebayor brings to the team. Rather whether he intends to stay or not. If he wants to stay…fair enough…he is a good player. The fact is that he doesn’t want to stay..and no matter how good he is (or thinks he is) there is nothing Wenger or the Board can do about that.
Are you saying that just because Milan offered him 120K ..he is worth that much?……and how do we know that his head won’t get turned again if Milan make a counter offer of 140K. Money or greed for that matter afterall knows no bounds. And if we do offer him 120K can we justify giving Fabregas 60 or 80K just because he has not openly courted clubs?…it will just start a chain reaction..Clichy…Toure..Gallas….even Walcott can turn around and ask for an increase.
The bottomline is if a player’s heart is not in it just becaue of Money…there is nothing you can do other than make the best of the situation and sell. Of course there is a chance that we may live to regret it..fair enough….but there is also a chance that we may find another guy who may bring something more to the team.
June 30th, 2008 at 12:02 pm
Kiwi, I can’t recall Bendtner looking to callow, simply because he was never given a chance during the period Ade went AWOL. The only game he started was the Wigan one on a bog of a pitch.
The times he got game time he scored as a sub versus Villa, the equaliser versus liverpool, and when he came on against United he came close with two headers. He wasn’t quite ready to fully influence a match but he was still a better influence on the pitch than Ade IMO, who was getting called offside all the time and generally sabotaging every attack with sloppy play. I think his gangly frame give the illusion of someone who looks like they’re working harder than they actually are. Also Ade knows without hard work he is nothing. He has to work his ass off to keep afloat ;^)
As for him getting credit for being the main man up front to rely on, yes he deserves alot of credit. Without him we definately would not have come as close as we did. However it works both ways. He benefitted from being the sole focus of our attacks and it allowed him the chances to score goals even though he was generally a mess in overall play. It’s almost as if one goal, by hook or by crook, gave him immunity from criticism for his general play.
You also have to ask yourself, if RVP and Eduardo been fit all season, would Ade have got 24 league goals and been chased by Barca and AC? I don’t think so. I think he would have had a similar season to 06/07, because Ade’s lack of class means he doesn’t prosper unless he has a complicit partner and midfield who is subserviant to him. Notice how his record with RVP isn’t great while with the more selfless Eduardo he pulled rank and kept hogging the goal areas.
If he goes to Barca and Milan, he will find his role.
June 30th, 2008 at 1:52 pm
“PS: Fred, Toure is not a backup”.
He should be!
As for Bendy. He is not a striker in the Ade mold, so you cant really compare their impact. With our current squad, Ade is more useful.
But if Ade leaves I dont think we have to replace him. Instead we should get rid of Hleb, then flood our midfield with PROPER, AM/winger types.
Put Bendy at the tip of a 4-2-3-1 - with the 3 being closer to the 1 than to the 2.
Yes, Ade is a better (read: more effective) player than Bendy. But they have quite different paths. Ade is looking down the Drogba road, while Bendy is more Shearer/Vieiri. But Bendy has a bit of an advantage because he is a bit like a stereotypical “English CF” of yore while players like Drogba and Ade NEED constant love and patience.
Drogba only found his feet at “old age” under Mourinho who overlooked his inability to properly control a ball - Drogba eventually learned and has become the most feared striker from a CBs point of view.
Ade was looking at a similar future under Wenger. At Barca and at Milan, they will EXPECT him to play like a superstar from the beginning, considering the heavy transfer fee and wages, and they will be a bit startled by his play and his sidefooting of shots. Barca will be far worse than Milan for him though. In the end he will be effective, but they will have little patience.
Anyway, I strongly believe Bendy can also hit 20 prem goals as a starter. I can even put money on it.
The only problem is that I am also sure that he will bolt like Ade once he makes it big. Ah well, at least we got em for free.
June 30th, 2008 at 2:23 pm
Agreed for most part Fred, except I don’t see our personnel being suited for a 4-2-3-1 formation with Bendy as the target man. If we play any combination of RVP, Eduardo, Nasri, Walcott, Rosicky and Vela as the top 3, we will suffer defensively overall and also force Fab into a more defensive position which will be a waste of his primary talents.
One of the dilemmas we have is that Fab has shown in the Euros he is better suited to the attacking midfield role for which we now have an over abundance of players.
I would also take your money on Bendy scoring 20 Prem goals as a starter I rate him currently as a 12-15 goal man at best.
June 30th, 2008 at 2:57 pm
Actually, Fabregas will be among the “3″ - so he will have less defensive work.
We wont suffer defensively…we will have that “2″ remember!
As for Bendy… am happy to lay it on!
Let Ade leave first. Bendy as the main man will hit 20+ easy.
A lot of people were astonished when I wanted to put money on Adebayor last summer.
June 30th, 2008 at 6:52 am
Wayne, the major issue to me is why aren’t Flamini, Adebayor and Hleb believing in Wenger’s vision? Are they just bad and greedy like you and others suggest? Or is the truth a little more expansive than that? When you change jobs do you do it for the money or for a number of reasons?
I don’t take Adebayor’s words at face value neither Wenger’s. Football talk is meaningless……Wenger started the off-season saying fans would be reassured by what he did in the transfer market and then modified that a few weeks later to be the standard normal nonsense. I’m not having a go at Wenger, I’ve said before he plays with the media (and therefore the fans). I’ve just come to the stage where I believe what I deduce not what I hear.
Wenger has said repeatedly that his main objective is to keep the team together - it ain’t working. I’m thinking there is more than a slight nexus between Wenger’ preoccupation with buying young and our inability to retain our performers.
Maybe it’s time to start exploring questions like “when does the squad balance between youth and experience tip and be unworkable?”
June 30th, 2008 at 9:42 am
@Kiwi
In both Adebayor and Flamini’s case…there is only one reason for a move and that is the wage demands. If it was a case of not believing in Wenger’s vision….i don’t think Flamini nor Adebayor would have considered a new contract. Rather they would have just moved on instead of even trying to negotiate a new contract. But they did not do that…rather they chose to look at which club was offering the highest wages and then moving there.
Both Flamini and Adebayor know they got their chance because the manager had trust in their abilities when they were raw youngsters. Both of them could hardly be called experienced when they came into the Arsenal team. So the debate on whether Wenger should be signing more experience rather than youngsters should be the last thing they are thinking about when they are faced with a situation of staying back or leaving.
Lastly…the club not winning anything was the primary motivator for people to look at moving….then Arsenal should be the last club they should be moving from. In terms of progress..the team did really well against expectations..both Barca and Milan went backwards….so i don’t see how not believing in the manager’s vision should be a factor for them.
I’m not labelling Adebayor or Flamini or Hleb bad just because they are choosing to move on. Every person might have different preferences about what they want from a job. ..some may want the money…others will play because they love the game. But what i’m upset about is the way they went about it. Flamini by holding on till the very last minute and then moving. Adebayor by professing his love etc etc….and then choosing to give quotes to the press which are the completly opposite of what he said in a official press conference. Hleb has not said anything much..so i’m really not sure what to make of it.
In any job…..there is a natural progression..even if you are a star performer. You don’t go from junior management to a CEO just because you were a star for one year. That’s what it should be about. Today’s players seem to think that just because someone is offering them a stupendous pay rise..suddenly they are worth it.
And about Wenger’s preoccupation with buying young…..i think it has to with the constraints on finances rather than anything else. Wenger is approaching the end of his managerial career…why on earth would he be interested in buying 16-17 year olds when he can spend on 27-28 year old superstars and win titles and retire in style. Maybe he is obsessed with the idea of buying youngsters….or simply he believes its the best way to survive when you lack the finances to compete with the big clubs. I can’t say for sure ..what is the reason for not buying superstars. But seeing how Wenger operates over the years..looking at Arsenal the club…..and a bit of study of the finances….I have my own conclusion that if Arsenal the club has to survive without a hostile takeover….then this is the only way to operate.
In a scenario where I don’ t have cash to spare…unless I have a cast iron guarantee that the striker I am going to pay 30 million for is going to score 30-40 goals in his debut season….i am better off not spending it. I’d rather spread my risks on 4-5 youngsters and hope that one of them comes through…it’s a safer bet..and more importantly I can mould the player into my system especially one that is so specific to Arsenal. My risks are almost zero in this case.
June 30th, 2008 at 1:19 pm
Anyone knows where to find something about Arsenal being the best English football club for the 20th century? Any link?
June 30th, 2008 at 1:58 pm
Interesting tidbit, Robinho is only on a £30 K salary at Real Madrid. Is Ade worth 4 times as much? I rather doubt it.
I have nothing against Ade trying to increase his current salary, but if in fact he thinks he is worth £120 K after one good season he is deluded.This situation is almost on parallel with Anelka and is just one more case of a poor, probably not the most educated, young man who is being misguided by his Agent and siblings who are all sycophants relying on his wages for their support.
Agents make their biggest paydays when transfers are done, because they get a cut of the transfer fee in addition to a percentage of the players’ salary. Therefore, it is in their best interest to continue having players transferred regardless of whether it is good for their client or not. I have always compared Agents to whores, except whores have more integrity because they are only selling their bodies and not someone else’s.
Does that help the situation? Not for Arsenal supporters who have seen Arsene take this talented but raw youngster and turn him into a star within 2 years.
The sad part of this story is if he goes to Barcelona, he will just become fodder for the rabid Catalan fans, lose his confidence when he realizes they do not love you for you but for how many championships you can bring to the table, and will serve his time on the bench until he is traded to a lower level club in a few years.
The worst part for Arsenal fans is that without Ade we will have to change our shape and formation for the coming season, which will severely reduce our chances of winning the EPL. Unfortunately, although Arsene is spewing the hard line that “Ade is under contract and will be here next year”, I think this is a smokescreen to not have the price of Ade’s replacement jacked up because we are in a bind. Ultimately, Ade will probably cause too many distractions if he remains and I do not expect to see him in our squad in the next month.
Hopefully I am wrong, but I fervently believe this season will be called LAA (Life After Ade).
June 30th, 2008 at 3:27 pm
We only played with Adebayor as a lone man for a combined five months of the season. It’s hardly a body blow and end to a long term frontman dynasty on the scale of Thierry Henry’s departure. He was a here for eight years as the lynchpin of our attack, Adebayor has been the main man for all of five minutes in comparison.
He will be an athletic loss. I like him as a sub because of his physical gifts, but Arsenal will be just fine without him.
June 30th, 2008 at 5:11 pm
On Bendtner…..callow isn’t a slur, it’s an observation of where a 19/20 year old is at in terms of his ability to impose himself on a game. In 2 years Bendtner may well look a rather ominous opponent, but that’s in 2 years.
On Wenger…..when he says his main objective is to keep the squad together he’s right and being perfectly consistent. If he wants to see this ‘young Arsenal’ strategy to completion he needs to keep the squad together. Particularly those players who break through and become serious contributors.
The problem is, he isn’t. So the risk is we get in to a cycle of spinning our wheels. Never quite able to progress enough to win.
On Adebayor……best to ignore the words & quotes. Footballers aren’t signed for their intelligence, rational thought or media handling. It’s all about their on-field contribution. As for the ‘wages’ ignore that too cause it’s 95% speculation. If Adebayor had been an inconsistent primadonna I would likely think ‘flick him’. But he hasn’t, he’s been a breath of fresh air. An opposing front-man with huge upside.
I acknowledge his weaknesses but I was looking forward to seeing him in concert wth a fit RvP/Eduardo with a savvy wide pairing - man that would have been good.
On fancy formations…….forget it. Wenger is a 4-4-2 man. He has never exhibited a penchant for changing formations. Only when he is forced by injury. He likes his 4-4-2 and allowing his players to express themselves within the confines of that structure.
June 30th, 2008 at 9:40 pm
Actually Wenger played 4-5-1 or 4-3-3 in about half of our games last season so that isnt necessarily true.
And 4-2-3-1 isnt really such a fancy formation - Portugal, Germany, Spain, Italy and numerous clubs play it occasionally or consistently.
June 30th, 2008 at 5:38 pm
On the Wenger vision……problem is we aren’t privvy to the business plan. So all we do is sit back and guess, albeit an educated guess based on 11 years of observation.
Press ‘flush’……Wenger did that and flushed away Arsenal MkII in record speed. Quite amazing really. Couldn’t fault that. The juice had been squeezed, nothin left.
Buy quality young….sounds good. Nip in and buy quality before the prices vault. Nurture it, develop a culture of excellence, harness the enthusiasm of youth and the ‘legs’. Lot’s of advantages to this including positioning ourselves for changes in FIFA reg’s and improving our chances of these youngsters feeling an allegiance to Arsenal.
The rub……this doesn’t happen in a vaccum.
Must win…..you just have to. For lots of reasons. Winning buys you time, keeps the performers, allows the others to develop.
Keeping performers…..players who become ’stars’ attract attention from other clubs. It’s just the way it is. So to keep them you have to give them what they want. And footballers are like any employees they want ’success’ and ‘money’. In football the success part is easy to define - winning trophies and playing for glam clubs. We know that the Arsenal wage bill is close to our rivals so it isn’t a matter that we can’t pay a ‘good’ level. The question is are we providing the performers with an acceptable mix of success & money? In Flamini’s, Adebayor’s and Hleb’s cases obviously not.
The answer…….we know you can’t guarantee success. Look at Chelsea last year, so close yet so far. But you need to ‘convince’ your performers that your as good a bet as the other glam clubs. To me this means when they look around the training ground and look at the ‘in’s and outs’ they see sufficient quality. That’s what I mean about believing in the Wenger vision. I reckon Ade, Flam and Hleb saw a re-run of last season (being flogged trying to carry a young squad) - compared it to the new-grass (another glam club and more money) and thought no thanks I’m off. Isn’t that what Henry did?
4 points so close…….yes and no. 4 points is close and last season was a great effort. But the truth is a little more complex. Our challenge ran out of gas. We crossed the finish by getting out and pushing the vehicle over the line. At the climax of the season it was ManU/Chelsea we had punched ourselves out.
June 30th, 2008 at 5:54 pm
Kiwi, spot on. Without sounding completely bias, I don’t think Ade was or is that bothered about being flogged cause Wenger has plenty of options there if RVP stays relatively fit. However Hleb and Fabregas probably aged three years last season, a victim of Wenger’s stingy approach to supplementing the flanks with genuine class and having another bona fida playmaker.
Wenget talks about the strength of the squad and the confidence he has in it, but when push comes to shove, he rolls out the weary soldiers and expects them to do Normandy back to back. When he does use the squad in the clutch periods, it gets exposed as woefully inadequate. What’s worse is that Wenger never seems to learn the lesson.
June 30th, 2008 at 6:02 pm
Wenger on Arshavin…..
“Can he show his full potential every three days that happens every season the same in England and Spain?
“In the semi-final meeting with the Spaniards, in which Arshavin looked to be exhausted, has forced me to ask this question.”
Maybe Wenger should be asking that question of his own star players - like a certain RvP and Rosicky? The evidence suggests they don’t come close to contributing on Arshavin’s level. So if Arshavin isn’t ‘up to it’ then why pretend RvP and Rosicky are?
Just another timely example of why it’s best to treat ‘comments’ in football with a dolup of well-intentioned cynicism, hold then up against the light of history and come to your own conclusions.
June 30th, 2008 at 6:15 pm
We can always pay an individual top money. Adebayor wants 120k? no problem pay him. Flamini wants 120k? no problem as well, pay him.
the real PROBLEM though is - AFTER we paid them the money they want. soon, wouldn’t Cesc be thinking, if Ade is getting paid 120k, i gotta ask for 200k, afterall, I will only “play like Platini when i get paid like Platini”….
before long, Gallas would be thinking “hell, i m the captain, i should be the highest earner, pay me 210k….. van Persie would be thinking “hell, i m supposed to be van the man, I joined Arsenal earlier than Ade, if he gets paid 120k, i wants 150k….
then the full back, Clichy, Sagna… “we are both in the EPL best XI” last season, we want 100k….
Theo “i m the bright young thing, i want 80k”…. so and so…..
Note there: Arsenal were willing to pay Flamini and Adebayor MORE, in Ade’s case, willing to offer him an 100% pay rise, but he wants a 400% pay rise. it;s just crazy, not that we didn’t TRY.
bottom line - you cannot have a squad where the top earners earning too big a margin from the rest, the dressing room would not be happy. If it’s Cesc, ok, he’s the BEST, and everyone knows so, so i don’t think too many of his teammates would feel sour when he’s earning big bucks. but Flamini, Adebayor? Gilberto would surely be thinking “what did Flamini do to actually DESERVE getting paid so much more than me? he only got ONE good season, while i been playing well for Arsenal for a few years”
So it’s never so simple of just paying an individual what he wants.
June 30th, 2008 at 6:22 pm
Kiwi, 4 points may not be as close as it looks. but if u r talking about AMBITION, in RELATIVE terms, Adebayor wants to join AC Milan, Flamini had joined, and if u look at AC Milan and Arsenal, who’s the team look having a brighter hope winning things in the near future?
AC Milan needs a massive transition, they thought they could just go and nick other teams’ players and things would be fine. God bless them if football is that simple.
We are the up and coming side, had Flamini, and should Hleb, Ade choose to stay, all we need is just to fine tune a few areas and we would be right up there challenging glory.
one thing for sure - though our chance of winning the CL is small, AC Milan has ZERO chance, it didn’t stop players want to join them. Ambition? or $$$?
June 30th, 2008 at 6:57 pm
Mazza, Picking up on Normandy and the WWII theme, Churchill said “….never has so much been asked of so few….”. One of the foremost impressions I have of last season is a handful of players carrying our season. In the clutch (love that term) those boys looked zonked. Adebayor’s energy levels had dropped, Fab and Hleb had recovered from their mid-season dip but the pizazz had gone, even Flam’s surges had tappered, and the back-up was woeful (again, not a slight, just a comment on their development stage).
Now look at the equation:
squad - Flamini, Adebayor & Hleb = improvement
No, even the erudite Wenger will struggle to sell that one.
Andez. I have never advocated a departure from a controlled wage policy.
AC Milan: I rate them as a savvy club. Whilst they need a rejuvenation they aren’t restricted in how they do that. They will likely mesh new signings into their existing experienced squad. And they do have some lovely younger players. Some signings will be big and others will be opportunistic (like Flamini). So I don’t think they’re as far removed from success as you suggest - just my opinion.
I agree with you that we were close to success.
On Flamini and his motivation….I think he is probably the most clinical thinker - he summed up his prospects at Arsenal and decided to go. I maintain, he looked at what counted, being money and success, and thought AC Milan was a better mix.
For most people decision-making is highly non-rational. We often come to a decision and then piece together a rationale to support that decision. So take Adebayor, he has looked at what has happened and is happening at Arsenal and the compared it to the offers from other glam clubs and decided he wants to go. He THEN justifies that with some dumb rationale……”I need to provide for my retirement”. The truth is he thinks the grass is greener elsewhere - not just the money but the whole experience. That’s the issue. It’s not just money, it’s the fact the Arsenal story isn’t appealing enough. Ouch that hurts.
That’s why I think Wenger should have handled this off-season better. One or two strategic signings early in the off-season would have changed the mood. Instead we got a ***** 17 year old.
June 30th, 2008 at 7:12 pm
Kiwi, i believe in every person has his own mindset. Many managers like to spend their club’s money to the last penny, and ask for more. AW’s mind-set is to rely on youth. and not just rely on $$$ power.
as said, once a person has a mindset, it’s unlikely he will change, at least not among the BEST in the business. only Steve McClaren the likes would swifting around and giving ppl an impression he doesn’ tknow what he’s doing.
let’s say, had AW decided playing the $$ game, and not relying on the youth, he would have been doing this a few years back.
That would mean - when Vieira, Henry, Bergkamp the likes departed, AW would have been buying all the big names. the smaller names like Flamini and Adebayor wouldn’t even be playing for us at the first place.
Had AW decided to play the $$ games a few years ago, i would still support his decision. ONE WAY OR OTHER. A good manager made a choice, made a decision, and STICK WITH IT. that’s what it matters, IMO.
if this policy fails, so be it. as there’s no sure win formula in this world. but when a manager today saying i m going with youth, tomorrow says damn we are not good enough, let’s spend big… next week saying hell, the youngsters are our tomorrow, i m going with our young guns…. then i would totally lost my respect and trust towards the man.
every single individual has his own value. i imagine if i were in Ade’s shoes, sure i want more $$$, who doesn’t? but is $$ everything in life? how about some loyalty, if not to the club, at least to the man who transformed you from virtually nobody to a 30 goals scorer? you know the man rely on you trying to build a successful team, and you are one key part of it. and it’s not like he’s not willing to give u a pay rise. 100% pay rise is a lot. so can’t u wait for a season or 2 to go digging gold? can’t u actually wait until you WON something before having the cheek to open ur mouth asking for a pay rise?
In Flamini’s case, he knew the manager counted on him, otherwise AW would be dropping him and play the highly rated Diarra middle of last season just to keep Diarra happy and stay in the club. This was what the manager DID for him. And how Flamini REPAID the manager?
sure, everyone has his own right to look for greener grass, looking for a better living. God bless them. But personally i will never respect ppl like that. Sure, i want to be rich as well, but i do also want to wake up in the morning and be able to look myself in the mirror and not feeling like seeing a face of rat.
June 30th, 2008 at 7:37 pm
btw Kiwi, let’s don’t forget, when Cesc joined, he was also a ******17, no, in fact, a ******15 years old. Clichy was a ******19 years old. Bendtner was a ****** 16 years old.
June 30th, 2008 at 7:53 pm
I haven’t forgotten. But how many Cesc’s are there? And what is the likelihood that you can accumulate 22 for a squad? And when was the last time a team won anything with a squad of 17 year olds? And when did Cesc go from being a starlet to being a player capable of performing over a season?
Comon Andez, be balanced. My argument is not that we shouldn’t buy young players it is that we need a measure of maturity/experience if we are to win.
I referred to Ramsey’s signing in the context of the message it gave AT THE TIME. By all means, sign Ramsey, but perhaps it would have been a tad more strategic to sign a player of substance early in the off-season to establish a positive mood.
June 30th, 2008 at 7:46 pm
Andez, I love a lot of what you say and I agree with much of the intent and the values you hold. But……
Just remember life isn’t always black and white. Indeed shades of grey dominate.
The same Flamini that you mention alongside “seeing a face of rat” was the same Flamini that Wenger used as a spare part for 3 years - despite the player giving 100%. So I think we can give the young man a little leeway when he comes to make a key career choice at 24. And what of Gilberto, WC winner? Another clubman thru and thru, Wenger relegated him to outer-Siberia.
Not easy is it? Wenger has a hard job placating a squad and players have a hard job crystal ball gazing their future.
For me, it’s not about money. It’s whether the players are buying Wenger’s story, his vision. And that needs to be tied into their sense of success. And in this regard for young footballing men in their prme success is playing for a glam club, winning things, and making lots of money. These 3 aren’t buying Wenger’s story.
A couple of points I have already made but that don’t seem to be registering.
1. I have never advocated a departure from a controlled wage policy.
2. I have not done a ‘flip’ and advocated for star signings.
June 30th, 2008 at 8:13 pm
“But how many Cesc’s are there”
Actually Kiwi, almost our entire squad joined Arsenal under the similiar circumstance.
cast our mind back - when Adebayor, Flamini first were signed, they weren’t exactly 17 years old, they weren’t that old neither, and they were hardly the experienced players fans were calling for…. and that’s why they had receieved so many doubts at the past.
so they are actually “ONE OF THEM”. a new signing who was casted doubted by fans when they were signed.
look around our entire squad, how many being the exceptions? how many actually got ppl excited when their arrival being announced? Gallas, Rosicky maybe.
but now they are the STARS now, so they probably forgotton where they coming from. Probably forgotton had AW be a bit more AMBITIOUS like they are asking for now, where they would be now.
June 30th, 2008 at 8:23 pm
u noe why i remember it so well Kiwi? cos i forgot how many times i been writing give Flamini time, he would only play better with more games. Or Adebayor was important to our linkup play, we couldn’t judge him by his goals (when he was stuggling scoring). Or Hleb’s important to our build up play because of his ability to keep the possesion…
i was among the ppl who stood up and defend them when some others were saying they were crap. I kept my belief they would turn good one day, despite of their young age. and believing AW’s youth policy would soon or later to pay off.
and just when i saw the sign that this day would soon to come, encouraged by last season’s performance as a team. and things like that happened.
if i sound bitter now, that’s because it’s exactly how i am feeling. whoever wants to leave, they can all go to hell.
June 30th, 2008 at 8:47 pm
And you’ll also remember that I defended and advocated Flamini and Adebayor. And I even came to a place where I accepted Hlebbie’s good and bad.
But Andez, let’s remember that it is Wenger’s job to develop talent. And once that talent blooms it is his job to keep it. Sounds tough? You bet ya. But that is what a manager does.
I think you are taking the notion of loyalty and gratitude much too far.
Wenger himself knows that his role is to sell the players the Arsenal story as much as it is to negotiate with them a better package. He has done that superbly over the years but let’s see how he goes now that Arsenal are in a dry spell with winning and now that the squad looks incredibly callow. As you have said this is Wenger’s strategy, young Arsenal, he also has the choices on whether to supplement that strategy with a little experience as required. If he chooses not to, he should be assessed on that.
Fans are fans of Arsenal. Wenger is the current manager and a wonderful one at that. But there is no requirement to accept Wenger’s position or to paint a positive spin on everything he does or doesn’t do.
June 30th, 2008 at 9:00 pm
kiwi, i m awared of perhaps my comments are a bit emotional. hope u didn’t mind. but my frustration is mainly aimed at those 3 players.
yes, loyalty is something i value in life. in football, and in real life. i m loyal to friends, and i like loyal friends. perhaps i take this into football as well. another thing is i grew up following loyal Arsenal servants like Tony Adams and the old back 4. then it’s Bergkamp (unreal for such a talent player playing for a foreign club for a decade), even Titi and Paddy i considered them being pretty loyal as few foreginers would stay at a same club for nearly a decade.
so this new generation X mentality i something quite difficult for me to take. that’s life i guess. things always change, but not necessary better.
June 30th, 2008 at 9:24 pm
This is nothing new. In the late 70’s early 80’s Arsenal had 2 of the greatest players in their positions. Liam Brady the Irish midfield playmaker and Frank Stapleton the Irish forward. In their prime and about to explode. Then…..Brady went to Juventus and Stapleton to ManU. It gutted Arsenal for years.
The Arsenal side of young Brady & Stapleton never threatened to climb to the top despite making 3 FA Cup finals and winning one.
It supports my assertion that a team of high aspirations MUST win. If it doesn’t the threads unravel and the opportunity is lost. If Arsenal had been a winning team perhaps Brady and Stapleton would have stayed - they were both Arsenal boys.
Last season I was disappointed that we didn’t take the League Cup and FA Cup more seriously. There is NOTHING like winning. All sport has a basic objective of winning. The greatest clubs are the clubs that establish a history of winning. This side needs a win. Or perhaps I should have said - this side needed a win.
June 30th, 2008 at 10:53 pm
depends on individual. David O’Leary stayed, and he’s an highly rated CB back then. and he got his reward in 89 for a league title, with league cup (86), FA Cup and League Cup double in 92. a reward for his loyalty.
Frank Stapleton,though, won NOTHING throughout his Man Utd (in fact, entire) career.
from 95 to 99, Arsenal won nothing. Adams and back 4 stayed. rewarded with two doubles for their patient.
before our 2002 double, Vieira stayed for 3 seasons with us winning nothing. He got his reward for another double + an unbeaten season.
so that depends. For every Anelka, you always have an Adams. For every Hleb, Adebayor, Flamini, we still got Clichy, Sagna whom had signed a new deal despite interest from other clubs as well.
Who’s going to have the last laugh? Loyalty wins? or Betrayal wins? we will see how things turn out to be in the end.
June 30th, 2008 at 9:34 pm
Deco signs for Chelsea……a little more guile to balance the muscular midfield. Lampard to Inter looks more likely. Assuming that happens it signals the change in style that Abramovich wants. Mourinho’s physical and intimidating brand of football giving way to a little more style.
June 30th, 2008 at 10:57 pm
speaking of David O’Leary, i remember vividly after the final whistle at Anfield 89, naturally the whole team were thrilled with joy. But the most emotional person of the night was O’Leary, he virtually had tear in his eyes.
Here’s the man, emerging the same time as Brady and Stapleton. while others left for greener grass, O’Leary opted to stay, with a team pretty much looked hopeless of winning anything. some may say he’s a fool. Yet after waiting for so many years, his loyalty paid off. I bet that moment was one of the greatest moment of his life. And noboby can say he deserved a league winning title more than him that year.
July 1st, 2008 at 12:02 am
Andez, I agree, O’Leary’s is a lovely story. Not many players see out almost all their playing careers with one club.
But to talk loyalty versus betrayal? A bit black and white. How reasonable is that?
What is the average length of time most employees spend in a job? 3 years? Over a 40 year working life. That’s a few changes - are we all betrayers?
So consider a professional footballer with perhaps a 12 year career at the top. Why shouldn’t they have the option to change? Is it so wrong to want to experience working in a new country? Or a new environment? If it is - then how do you reconcile Arsenal signing a squad full of foreigners?!! They had to come from somewhere to get to us.
As fans we passionately love our club. And so we transfer that as an obligation on to the players. Truth is, most don’t feel as passionate. Their motivations are different to a fans but consistent with an employees.
In saying all this, I’m not excusing players from acting with basic integrity. From that angle, I found Hlebs end-of-season ’slap’ to be purile. The club should have fined him his remuneration for the remainder of the season and demanded an apology.
Wenger is a loyal manager, and he has fostered a culture of loyalty at Arsenal. Overall this has been successful. But the success of this policy depends somewhat on being clever and ensuring that players find good reason to be loyal. That means we need to be financially competitive (which I think we probably are), maintain a competitive squad (?…not so convincing), and be successful on the pitch (well, no).
Adams and Bergkamp yes - role models for Arsenal.
I wouldn’t call Vieira loyal per se. He stayed for a long time but for at least 4 years he danced Wenger a pretty tune all off-season long. Or have you forgotten? Our complete off-season would be clouded with this absurd “is he going” drama. And this was OUR CAPTAIN. A legend sullied, for me.
Henry was the epitomy of a loyal star player……until he became captain LOL. The only thing I can summise is that he saw Vieira’s ’style’ and copied it. That probably did it for me. After Henry’s nonsense I accepted that these are cynical times. And that any loyalty has to be mixed with a huge helping of savvy-ness.
On that score Wenger shouldn’t have let the Flamsters contract run down. He should have called his bluff earlier - sign or bench.