I think everyone can agree that Arsene Wenger is one the greatest Arsenal managers ever. He has brought to Arsenal and to the English top flight a revolutionary brand of football that is admired world wide. He has these very untypical fitness and training methods and a very philosophical approach to managing team and the way the game should be played.
Perhaps the highlight of Wenger’s time in charge has been his ability to take little known talent and turn them into champions. The names of Patrick Vieira, Nicolas Anelka, Thierry Henry, and Francesc Fabregas immediately come to mind. These were all good quality players with who’s careers were going nowhere fast. Wenger brought them to Arsenal and has been credited with turning them all into world-class players; household names in the world of football. But does he really deserve all the credit?
I, like Wenger, consider myself a philosophical guy. I have a theory that says that Wenger does not deserve all the credit. In every job you’ve got your big boss; the guy who’s ultimately responsible for everything that happens be it good or bad. In Wenger, we even have a father figure. But then there are workers that take the new guys under their wing and show them the ropes to try and help them be successful in their new job. They work with the newbies a lot closer than the big boss and essentially become mentors. New guys listen to them because they have experiences that the young bucks don’t.
When I look at Patrick Vieira, it’s clear that his mentors helped develop him into what he became. There is no one that’s ever played midfield like Vieira. Every team in the world is looking for someone who can play like Vieira but they won’t find it. What they fail to realize is Vieira’s not normal but a hybrid. Players aren’t born like Vieira, they‘re made. We had the Vieira of AC Milan who under the guidance of Wenger and the close attention and mentorship of Petit, Keown, and Adams, evolved into the phenomenal hybrid Arsenal legend, Vieira. There’s a similar story with Thierry Henry and the mixture of influence received from Bergkamp and Kanu.
So, what’s so different now? Has Wenger suddenly become a poor judge of talent? Has he changed his philosophical approach to how the game should be played? Has Wenger lost the plot? No, no, and no. The biggest difference is that there is no mentorship in the team. Young Aaron Ramsey is getting the scoop from Denilson. Denilson is looking up to Eboue. WTF? Where is the Tony Adams or Dennis Bergkamp figure at? With Arsenal playing with such a young team, is there any way to escape this dilemma?
Disclaimer: Understand that this is just a theory; a bunch of crap that I made up. However, I believe there to be an element of truth to what I’ve said. I’m sure there’s something that I haven’t considered and this is just for conversation sake on this site. Now come with the knives.
August 24th, 2008 at 4:19 pm
Nice theory Josh, and there is an element of truth IMO.
But I am not so philosophical in this case. As important as a mentor can be, in this game genuine quality the work ethic and all that comes with it can make a mentor irrelevant. What we need now is genuine quality in the centre of the park a ball winning aggressive terrier for the want of a better word. We lacked creativity against Fulham and to some degree WBA, but a ball winner would have given our creative players the license to express themselves.
I think Arsene wants to show loyalty to all these young players that he may have promised to give a fair chance because he believes in them. However if they do not live up to their promise, what becomes of Arsenal.
It is to early to write the likes of Denilson off but if, as I suspect he is not yet ready to fill the void Flamini left or become an adequate number 2 for Cesc then it is too much of a gamble to persist with him.
Eboue as FANTASTIC as he is as a player and a gentleman is not the answer for DM but may well suffice as a back up striker! Diaby as much as I like him is unlikely to be any better than Denilson. I suggest Song and if I were Arsene I would be looking to try and develop that Coliquin fellow ASAP, he has the mentality we want in that position, a real terrier.
Long and short of it Josh we just need the quality players for the position/s or the current members to up their game, they are much better than this regardless of the lack of mentors.
August 24th, 2008 at 4:59 pm
The ‘void’ Flamini left?? You mean the one season of hard-working-making-the-most-of-minimal-talent we saw?
Paddy Viera left a void. Flamini left a ‘hole’, and one that should have been a lot easier to fill than AW (or elements of this board) are making it out to be.
Let’s get a grip of the Legend of Mathieu Flamini before it gets really silly.
August 24th, 2008 at 5:33 pm
In the context of this Arsenal squad does it really matter whether a player is a void-filler or a hole-filler? Are we really in a position to be choosey? I’d welcome back Flamini the hole-filler tomorrow - he provided the answer we needed last season. If you’re able, cast your mind back to the previous 2 seasons - the cries from the supporting masses were for a robust CM to help Fabregas. Now ask yourself why those cries evaporated last year. See the correlation? I haven’t heard anyone ascribe legendary status to the Flamster - just admiration of a whole hearted player who actually ‘did the business and provided a solution’. I’m still waiting to see all these playes who can easily replicate what he did.
As for the ‘criticism’ that he only did it for ‘one season’ - run through the current squad and name me the players who have performed for Arsenal to the necessary standard for ‘one season’. An interesting exercise - go on have a go.
August 24th, 2008 at 5:46 pm
It’s supposed to matter at Arsenal whether a player is a void filler or hole filler. If you’re interested in Arsenal for the long-term, it absolutely matters. We didn’t arrive at this point overnight. It’s been part of a plan, and it’s one that concerns some of us.
It’s not a criticism to say he did it for one year, it’s a fact. That’s kind of the point, isn’t it? We’ve arrived at a place where the loss of a middle-of-the-road/one year wonder such as Flamini is being treated like a turning point in Arsenal’s history.
That there are so many players even less proven than Flamini left on the squad further reinforces the point, even as you seem to miss it.
August 24th, 2008 at 9:23 pm
Here we go again getting your tight little knickers in a twist over semantics! hole or void, grow up it doesn’t matter.
Nobody mentioned Flamini being a legend or a turning point in Arsenal history except you, DAH.
Flamini regardless of how many years he had or had not done “it” was so complimentary to Cesc that Wenger said that he believed that this CM partnership was better than that of Petit/Vieira.
No matter how ignorant you are about “soccer” any fool could see the value of Flamini to our side. He is not going to be easily replaced, he was an flipping animal, a warring work horse. Box to box, can attack as well as defend, in your face all the time. Those players don’t come often or on the cheap that’s why Milan snapped him up.
You need to slow your roll dude! and listen to Kiwi when he is talking to you, you might learn something.
August 24th, 2008 at 6:01 pm
On your assessment of Flamini I don’t agree - at all.
I don’t see Flamini leaving as a turning point - the turning point is the strategy Wenger is adopting. So perhaps we agree on that. When Flamini and Hleb left it was wholly predictable that they would be replaced with an inferior solution. And the inferior solution would either be an existing squad player or a new young player who would need time to develop. Note that word inferior ’solution’ not inferior ‘player’. In 2 years Nasri may tell be a superior solution to Hleb - time will tell.
The irony to me is that Flamini who is attracting much derisory comment as such a limited player is a very example of the success of Wenger’s strategy. A young signing, who after 3 years comes good. The twist in the tail (that really concerns me) is that after one truely productive season he up’s and leaves. If Wenger’s strategy is ever to bear fruit - the guys who become ’solutions’ can’t then ‘exit stage right’.
August 24th, 2008 at 6:11 pm
Okay, you’re right. We agree on more than we disagree. And you make a good point about Flamini’s circumstance being a perverse example of both the apparent success and failure of aspects of AW’s philosophy.
The minor, insignificant (at this point, since he’s gone) disagreement is on Flamini’s talent. I’m not so sure he really turned a corner last season, as much as he had a ‘contract-year’. He put together the best of his talent for one season, and made his payday. We can get back to this discussion in a year or two. I’m betting we’ve seen his best year.
August 24th, 2008 at 6:12 pm
Many perhaps all champion teams have players within their ranks with lesser reputations. Arsenal Mk II had Bert & Lauren & Ljungberg - players who provided a solution in the context of the team without having the profile, impact or I would say skill-set of their team-mates. But you need them……just like a guy like the Flamster was and could have continued to be a really useful part in the jigsaw.
Anyway, I’m still waiting for the list of current players within the squad who have performed for Arsenal to the necessary standard for ‘one season’.
August 24th, 2008 at 6:49 pm
I think Flamini was planning to screw Wenger from the moment he heard of interest from Milan and Juve. The indignation of being allowed to talk to Birmingham probably rankled with Flamini and with him being in the last year of his contract, he most likely made a vow to prove a point to Wenger and let it all hang out in last year, as Vibe4arsenal has stated.
August 24th, 2008 at 7:15 pm
the whole Bert/Flam/Diarra thing is like a 3-part series on how not to manage!
Last season we had midfielder overload…..now we’re trawling the depths.
You may be right Mazza, Flam strikes me as a very intentional character. That came through the way he ‘adopted’ the ‘enforcers mantle’. That was intentional…..he saw the gap and said “I’ll fill it” - and he did.
I’ll be called critical but I reckon Wenger got what his actions deserved with Flamini and Bert…….Diarra was a self-absorbed nutter, although then again buying opportunistically on the closing down sales is hi-risk - it doesn’t pander to a footballers ego - he rightly doesn’t feel he is a key signing and so when it doesn’t ‘work out’ he is more inclined to hop-it.
August 24th, 2008 at 9:34 pm
Little naive to think a man can display talent that wasn’t there in the first place for one year to impress someone and even more unlikely that he would suddenly put that talent away after that year.
the more likely scenario would be that the guy had improved, maybe because he had something to prove but that talent is still there and had he stayed at Arsenal he would have been able to replicate last season performance.
August 24th, 2008 at 6:55 pm
We’re officially going in circles, so I can mostly leave it.
Bottom line: I feel like Flamini is a gnat in Arsenal history. The fact that people here still seem so focused on his leaving, seems symbolic of the larger problems that his absence seems to distract them from.
August 24th, 2008 at 7:07 pm
Agreed.
“gnat”…..ouch!!
August 24th, 2008 at 11:24 pm
Also known as ‘circle jerk’.
August 24th, 2008 at 6:37 pm
I just don’t quite understand what Wenger is going on about when he talks about nurturing these younger players from an early age so that they develop a love for the club. That, in his words, is his ‘idealistic vision of modern football’.
Okay, not understanding is not true. I do understand in theory what he’s trying to build, however, the concept of Wenger’s vision and the actual reality out on the pitch is somewhat different, alot different in fact.
Can anyone really say that Denilson’s supposed love for the club yesterday provided some intangible advantage over mercenaries like Danny Murphy who probably couldn’t give a two hoots about Fulham?
The same applies to Senderos and Djourou. Their constant digestion of Wenger doctrine since 2003 seems to have made no discernable difference to their displays for Arsenal. Willy Gallas comes in, cold as ice, and is the best defender at the club, despite not being any great shakes himself recently.
Abou Diaby, another cold fish. Seemingly vying with Denilson for the ‘most emotionally detached’ award. These two players seem to have been on the periphery roundabout so much to the point of being numb. Both have the thousand yard stares of Vietnam veterans.
Gael Clichy, Kolo Toure, and Cesc Fabregas seem to be the exceptions, however as Joshuad’s post alludes to, these guys had legends to practice, play, and prosper with. They got the lovin’ but also got themselves some hardware and experience of being winners. With them it’s not just some empty rhetoric, like it is probably beginning to feel like to players like Denilson and Walcott.
Do these young players care too much? So much so that they cannot express themselves? I don’t think so. I would like to think so but I don’t.
I can only think the contrary has occured. These young players have stagnated, are earning too much money for too little responsiblity, and privately fear that Wenger doesn’t really rate them. Look at Johan Djourou. He’s played well in recent games and then promptly gets dropped for Kolo Toure. Look at Denilson. I don’t rate the player, never have, but it must be hard for him to know that Wenger is actively looking to bring in an experienced player to partner Cesc.
Wenger’s vision is like a truck on a muddy lane, half a metre deep in brown sludge, wheels turning, but no progress being made. The question is, when is Wenger going to get out of the truck and choose a different path? Or will he grow demented, stubborningly keeping his foot on the accelerator?
August 24th, 2008 at 7:01 pm
Love the analogies Maz! Really do.
When you look at last season who really performed consistently?
It wasn’t the youngsters it was…..Adebayor, Fabregas, Hleb, Flamini, Clichy, Sagna…..not a post-Vieira youngster in sight. What I summise is that developing youngsters has long lead-times (and that’s not rocket science). So when you drop experience in such a holistic fashion and maintain a puritanical youth-only replenishment policy your lengthening the odds terribly.
We all want to believe that Wenger still has the trophy-winning midas touch but the evidence is getting a little thin and memory of victories a little dim.
August 24th, 2008 at 7:13 pm
“So when you drop experience in such a holistic fashion and maintain a puritanical youth-only replenishment policy your lengthening the odds terribly.”
Yes, exactly! I knew we were saying the same thing.
August 24th, 2008 at 7:18 pm
It’s like Wenger has gone into a hairdressers with the intention of a nicely structured trim -a new identity but not a complete re-vamp- however half-way through he’s grown restless and ripped the clippers from the hairdresser’s hand and recklessly shaved all his hair off. He initially feels a wave of catharsis but has since looked into the mirror and thought “What the f*ck have I done?”
August 24th, 2008 at 7:28 pm
and we’re all staring and thinking the same (well not quite all - Wayne, LDE and Andez will come along sporting shaved heads and berating us that bald is ‘in’).
luckily he’s still got his values
August 24th, 2008 at 7:31 pm
Ah, but has Wenger had that WTF moment? Or does he believe the Surge will work in time, if we just stay the course a little longer?
We’ll see in the next week, I suppose is the obvious line.
August 24th, 2008 at 7:41 pm
“and we’re all staring and thinking the same (well not quite all - Wayne, LDE and Andez will come along sporting shaved heads and berating us that bald is ‘in’).”
I now have visions of the Manson family crawling along the street outside the US Supreme Court with symbols carved in their foreheads.
Could work outside the Emirates, just substitute the swastika with ‘Arsene Knows’.
Just kidding Andez, Wayne, LDE
August 24th, 2008 at 9:48 pm
You make some very good points Mazza. Arsene’s idealism in this respect is naive. He cannot develop someones love for the club only a love for him Fabregas being an example. Even if they love the club it doesn’t mean they will be loyal, look at Wayne Rooney, he loved Everton but left due to the desire for success and possibly a bigger wage packet.
The youth project is a gamble that does not appear to be working and may well fall apart if players start to leave because of lack of success. However I fear Arsene will stubbornly keep his foot on the accelerater
August 24th, 2008 at 6:46 pm
You may well be right vibe, Flamini may never enjoy as good a year again - but perhaps that may also be attributable (in part) to Arsenal being a unique environment for him in ‘being the best he can be’ as it has been for others.
JD, on topic!! I agree with what you say. I think of Fabregas and how fantastic he has become so quickly. Sure part is his undoubted blend of talent, attitude and motivation but I wonder how he would have fared if he’d started in this current side. Yikes!!
Luckily Fabregas was blended in to the super-experienced Arsenal Mk II - what a different prospect to this current side - so fragile and callow. Now poor ole Denilson comes in and the midfield looks like…..Nasri/Eboue/me/Walcott……with the link man in front being the ailing van Persie. Would any teenager look good trying to hold that together?
Mentors in this team? My picks would be Toure……shivers that’s scary I can’t honestly list another. Gallas is a fiery competitor but I wouldn’t pick him as a natural mentor-type (nor as captain). Bert was but he’s gone. Sagna may be , but he’s only been here a year.
Obviously Wenger knows this but he’s 100% focused on ‘young Arsenal’. I’ve said before I reckon he was absolutely snotted by the abdication of Arsenal Mk II post-Vieira. And this ‘young Arsenal’ strategy is as much a reaction to that than to the economic factors he often cites. After all, he gets Silvestre for under 1m, he got Sagna and Eduardo for between 7-10m, and he spends 5m on Ramsey and 10m on Walcott. He can’t cry economics - it’s more than that. he has a vision of creating a young Arsenal that is pure and unique. Like I said before - we’re the Auxerre of the EPL.
August 24th, 2008 at 10:21 pm
So if Flamini is mediocre at Milan, it’s because he’s out of the Arsenal system?
What you’re really saying, Kiwi, is I won’t ever be getting a
Yeah, he really wasn’t much.
out of you
August 24th, 2008 at 10:43 pm
I hope I’m not that obstinate mate!
I’m just saying he mightn’t do as well at AC Milan, but that doesn’t mean he was of little value to Arsenal.
When I assess a player I look at what he brings to the team, maybe that’s why I like guys like Adebayor and Flamini who some others think don’t quite cut it. To me they are every bit as critical to developing a champion team as Fabregas. It’s all about finding solutions, some solutions come in the form of world-class superstars others don’t. With Flam and Ade they both bring a winners attitude - they’re also a bit narly - not scared to mix it in the rough and tumble of the EPL. Notice when we had Ade, Flam, Sagna and Gallas we haven’t looked quite so ‘light-weight’. Collectively these guys give the team a bit of spine.
Not saying it is all coming unstuck, but we’re hardly getting the positive start that a young side needs. Someone pointed out that ManU lost a game early last year - I’d be cautious about drawing a comparison - ManU are stacked with experience - it counts and makes a team a lot more resiliant over the course of a long season.
My last comment on the Flamster - I vividly remember his string of performances as a fill-in at left back that got us to the Champions League Final - unselfish, commited and enough skill to apply himself to a totally new role even when under the pump. Not the actions of a one-season wonder.
August 24th, 2008 at 8:20 pm
Vibe, good question. I don’t know if Wenger has looked in the mirror yet. He may still be full of belief - like most high-achievers he has a distinctly stubborn streak.
Will there be a Surge and the youngsters become ’solutions’? Wouldn’t that be great! I fear the Surge will never eventuate without an adequate layer of experience. It’s like a bad surf beach - big waves with dangerous rips. The rips are the Hleb’s & Flamini’s leaving and the Adebayor having his head turned. You can never quite make it to the right wave to perform.
Hard enough with a winning team (Mk II) to keep your stars - how do you do it when your just plain callow? You can’t. If we spend another 2 years “in half a metre deep in brown sludge” what will happen to Fabregas idealism? Real and the Spanish sun will look too good an offer to refuse.
August 24th, 2008 at 8:21 pm
I regret not having more than a few years following Arsenal. My comments are limited to this time frame.
When you play 8 v 11, it is an accomplishment to only lose 0-1. Walcott, Eboue, & Dennilson would have given Arsenal a better chance of a tie or victory by staying off the pitch. There is no excuse for their lack of performance.
Flamini and Hleb were tireless role players. It is obvious that neither had a talent for shooting accuracy, but their work rate allowed Arsenal to control mid-field against every opponent. Both were excellent at reading the game, movement without the ball, and short to medium passing accuracy.
Eboue & Walcott are deficient in these skills. Denilson was just awful yesterday, but has the skills to play at this level - maybe not in Cesc’s place unless he is supported by more experience.
Viera was magnificent. He patrolled the rear of the midfield, had great reaction to the ball, won over 90% of the 50/50 balls & great tactical abilities with his dribbling and passing. When you play on your National team and win the World Cup - it does volumes for your confidence!
If you could place Flamini’s heart in Diaby’s body - you would have cloned Viera.
I would like to be proven wrong about Gallas, but last year did him in…..and he is not an inspirational captain. This is a huge problem for AW.
I have not thrown in the towel for this season. AW has his work cut out for him and we all should be anxious to see how he approaches a solution!
August 24th, 2008 at 11:40 pm
i know i’m in the minority, but diaby seems more suited to play forward v. playing DM. it’s really too bad. i like what you said, “If you could place Flamini’s heart in Diaby’s body - you would have cloned Viera.”
August 24th, 2008 at 11:20 pm
http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2008/aug/24/premierleague.arsenal.
Amy Lawrence’s Fabregas interview. Mature beyond his years is a thought that come to mind.
August 24th, 2008 at 11:30 pm
Josh, I agree with most of your comments. Losing Hleb or Flam in itself not such a bad thing, but when you look at it in context (like say v. Fulham) just 7 1/2 months ago we beat FFC 3-0 at Fulham, but last weekend’s squad v. the one from Jan. was without Fab, Rosicky, Hleb, Flam. We lost experience and replaced them with teenagers. Without Fab and Mozart, our young side will struggle. we need a Gattuso type and we could use some age and experience to level the side. while we may be in great shape for the future with all the youngsters, what does today and this season hold? i’m not ready to write off the gunners by a long shot, but it does seem like we are light on experience and enforcement.
August 24th, 2008 at 11:54 pm
it goes without saying that we need Fab & Rosicky back.
we also need Ade, RvP, Gallas, Toure, Sagna, Clicy to have solid seasons. if we get that we’ll have a fine season. if injuries continue to be a buggar, it will be a long, frustrating season.
August 25th, 2008 at 5:58 am
Kiwi/Mazza/Anyone else in the same group,
While you guys are enjoying your time in the sun..and growing increasingly cocky with references to the bald heads and ’swastika’ of all things…… on the evidence of 2 games into the season….i’ll leave you with some food for thought from a former president of the United States
It is not the critic who counts,
not the man who points out how the strong man stumbled,
or where the doer of deeds could have done better.
The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena;
whose face is marred by the dust and sweat and blood;
who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again;
who knows the great enthusiasms,
the great devotions and spends himself in a worthy course;
who at the best, knows in the end the triumph of high achievement,
and who, at worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly;
so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls
who know neither victory or defeat.
You may call this as resorting to philosophy to avoide arguing with your super intelligent football minds here…..but read that line by line and tell me you don’t see yourself there :D. I’m not too much into quotes..but saw this on a friend’s status message just after the defeat to Fulham..and was struck by how apt it was.
Do i believe that the Arsenal team still has it to win the league…Yes I do …and we will see at the end of the season…not on the evidence of 1 match. Do i still believe in Wenger’s philosophy…yes i do…does that make me a blind follower?..NO. If you want to make it a personal argument..believe me I have duelled with the best..but I won’t.
Ironically..just because every other football team is following a different model to Arsenal and Wenger….you seem to think that this is the only way to go….does that make you blind followers too?
That’s all from me for now.
You guys can go back to discussing why the team will fail this season
Cheers
PS: And yup.. i can take a joke..but not snide remarks masquerading as jokes.
August 25th, 2008 at 7:53 am
“…fails while daring greatly”, a noble sentiment that when applied to Gallas becomes an oxymoron. He has been nowhere near great nor does he appear to be striving valiantly. We can’t take anymore losses based on him coming up short. “Arsenal Addict’s ” blog notes that Gallas has made 2 mistakes in 2 games and that was the magic number that got Lehmann dropped last season. Toure/Silvestre has such a nice ring to it.
August 25th, 2008 at 11:36 am
How about this presidential quote of a more recent vintage?
“…fool me once…shame on…shame on you…fool me…can’t get fooled again.”
August 25th, 2008 at 12:11 pm
Ha ha
another classic…. “Trying put food on your family’.
August 25th, 2008 at 9:24 am
LDE’s post on March 28, 2008:
“Lastly…I thought some of this might be apt here…
“It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; because there is not effort without error and shortcomings; but who does actually strive to do the deed; who knows the great enthusiasm, the great devotion, who spends himself in a worthy cause, who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement and who at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly. So that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory nor defeat.”
Theodore Roosevelt
——————————————————————————————————————
No wonder I get you two mixed up. Great minds think alike eh?
August 25th, 2008 at 12:50 pm
Nice to see you actually remembered LDE had posted it…too bad you never learnt from it though
August 25th, 2008 at 2:21 pm
Cool! ArseAm has it’s own Joe Biden. (Hope LDE doesn’t mind being Neil Kinnock, in this analogy.)
August 25th, 2008 at 4:01 pm
It’s a shame I busted it eh. I’m sure one of you had it lined up again for a Christmas special when the shit really hits the fan
Oh well, you’ll just have to try and use arguments and logic instead!
August 25th, 2008 at 9:31 am
When you lack proper players / depth… and experience / quality… and just go with the kids… AND you lose the likes of Flamini and Hleb, then there is a void.
You simply can’t plug the holes with a no-name and expect them to perform miracles, even against Fulham.
It was an embarassing performance from a team that some people think “can win the league”…
I just hope we can remain in the CL - top 4 race… because if we keep up with the injuries to key players, its not happening. And without the CL to attract top flight players… the departures of our better players will continue … only quicker. There won’t be ANY loyalty to Wenger at that point.
When’s that transfer window close? Monday? 1 week?
I would imagine we bring in NOBODY of note. Stubborness? Not sure, but it seems that way.
August 25th, 2008 at 10:02 am
I love your theory Joshuad, and very much agree with that.
to a certain extend, I do feel Wenger had some “luck” at the past. Dont get me wrong, as with everything in life, i do believe “luck” plays a part in everything.
when he first took charge of Arsenal, among the first two players he signed (even before he arrived), they were Anelka and Vieira.
in Vieira’s case, Wenger had rescued his career, taking him from the stand (not being able to warm the bench due to the foreign restriction back in those days) of AC Milan to the Arsenal starting lineup.
it proved to be a great success. on the other hand though, Wenger was “lucky” that a talent like Patrick Vieira was actually AVAILABLE at that time.
as we all known, a talent like Vieira was UNIQUE. that probably doesn’t come along once a decade. or in fact, I NEVER seen a midfielder like Paddy before in my whole life - tremendous physical gift, 6 ft 4 yet with such a wonderful skills. and he’s available at 3.4 mil? even with those days’ transfer market standard, it was UNREAL. I bet selling Vieira gotta go down to one of the worst piece of business AC Milan ever done.
Wenger needed a midfield general back in 1997, and he got one.
it’s pretty much the same with Henry. that after losing such a talent like Anelka, he’s able to buy a player who happened to be AVAILABLE. another UNIQUE talent that just because you have money you may not always be able to buy one - Thierry Henry.
i guess the same thing can be say about Fabregas. After losing Vieira, somehow Wenger was able to spot a Fabregas!
no doubt Wenger is probably one of the game’s best talent spotters of modern day. but footballers come with different generation. from time to time, a geniue world class player would come to this football world and waiting to be spotted. yet some other time there may not be any.
Vieira, for instance, there hasn’t been any other Vieira, or in fact anywhere near to him ever since.
So i totally agree, AW hasnt been doing anything DIFFERENT than when he discovered Vieira, Henry. He has always put his FAITH into the young talent he TRUST.
the only difference is Vieira, Henry, Cole, Fabregas, Clichy did not take too long to make an impact to repay the faith the manager had in them, while Denilson, Walcott, Diaby the likes at the moment are still struggling.
I do not believe Denilson, Walcott the likes are the pretenders. I think they have what it takes. I am sure Wenger still have faith in them. but they gotta realize playing for a top side like Arsenal it’s either swim or sink. yes it’s a pressure-cooker, yet unless they are happy to settle playing for a smaller club, they better get used to it and start performing. The pressure now they are facing are no different from what Vieira, Cole, Fabregas the likes had faced at the past.
August 25th, 2008 at 10:56 am
Wow, I just wrote this yesterday morning. Looks as if Senderos has gone to Milan on loan. He played well when he came on for Toure in the CL game against Milan. I remember commenting on how he looked eager, and not anxious, to get into that game.
August 25th, 2008 at 11:58 am
Good riddance to Senderos!
Last summer till now our transfers read like:
OUT:
Henry: 16 mill
Ljunberg: 3 mill
Reyes: 8 mill
Aliadiere: 3 mill
Diarra: 5 mill
Hleb: 13 mill
Gilberto: 1 mill
Hoyte: 3 mill
Bentley: 7 mill
Lehmann: free
Flamini: free
Djorou, Senderos, etc on loan: 3 mill (with avg loan fee at 0.5 mill)
Total: 62 million
IN:
Eduardo: 8 mill
Sagna: 7 mill
Diarra: 2 mill
Fabianski: 3 mill
Nasri: 12 mill
Silvestre: 1 mill
Ramsey: 5 mill
Total: 38 million
We have a solid transfer market profit of 24 million pounds in the last 12 months alone. There is also a shortfall of about 4 players….except ofcourse you want to count the likes of Wilshere.
All in all it will be criminal if Wenger pretended like he is short for cash.
Even with the stadium debt, the club made a profit last season (not counting the transfer market profit). So basically the club is meeting its obligations and still doing very well, increasing ticket prices and all.
There are no excuses Wenger. Go find one of those unknown players you are good at getting.
August 25th, 2008 at 12:10 pm
i m happy for Sendy. over the years there had to be one guy fans love to hate, and love to make him as the number 1 scapegoat. Whether it’s just or not it’s up to individual’s opinion. now he’s gone, fans will have to look for a new target. Who’s next? Emmanuel Eboue, i afraid it’s going to be your turn! :)))
speaking of Sendy, i recall many had predicted it would be a disaster period of us when Toure off to ANC last season. yet somehow Sendy stepped in and disaster didn’t really happen. by the time ANC ended, we were still top of the table. things started fallen apart after AW immediately put Toure back to the starting lineup. while Sendy’s back to the bench. Senderos, for whatever reason, is never someone who could just come on and play well. he does tend to take a few matches to get into full gear. perhaps that’s his major flaw. therefore back then i thought it was a bad idea to put Toure back so soon (same reason i thought it’s a bad idea to put Toure back so soon with Djourou hadn’t really played that poorly prior to our Fulham match).
i think that was the time when our defence started falling apart last season, in particular after Toure soon shifted to RB to cover injuried Sagna.
yet naturally all the blamed went to Senderos again. despite he virtually made only one costly mistake (against Liverpool in CL when he lost Hyppia). from what i recall Toure and Gallas probably had made more costly mistakes.
but Senderos being Senderos, his clumsyness would never win him too many fans.
now he’s off, hopefully now everybody is happy.
August 25th, 2008 at 12:20 pm
Yep, I am Andez.
See, we were right all along. Finally Wenger has caught up with us
August 25th, 2008 at 1:17 pm
Funny!
August 25th, 2008 at 12:16 pm
Fred, the figures you put down there are pretty silly. basically all are from what u read from the press.
since when the club would reveal the actual figure? i saw ppl doing this from time to time all over the internet (listing out the transfer IN and OUT figures), as if they are the accountant of AFC, just gave me a good laugh.
August 25th, 2008 at 3:05 pm
Silly?? Really why are they silly when relatively reputable websites like BBC report those figures??
You do realize that the fact Arsenal does not give out the exact figures, the OTHER club usually always does right?
The most hilarious statement you make is that “all the reports I read are from the press” !!!
From where else should I get the reports? Gossip from my neighbors?
August 25th, 2008 at 12:55 pm
“Milan also have the option to make the move permanent for a set fee next summer, and a transfer to the San Siro would seem likely as the Swiss international has fallen down the pecking order at Arsenal.”
Fingers crossed!
August 25th, 2008 at 12:59 pm
Okay then, Art. I’m not saying that a player’s hard work and committment isn’t required but sometimes it’s not enough. How many have tried and failed to make it as a footballer giving it all they had? Do you believe for a second that Vieira didn’t work his socks off at Milan? If hard work was enough to make him who he became then why on earth would Milan sell Vieira? They had to know what he was capable of.
In any walk of life, people become who they are based on the things they’ve experienced. In Vieira, we had this guy with African athleticism and raw skill coupled with French/Italian flair and we introduce him to Martin Keown and Tony Adams (you can’t make this stuff up). Hell, even his compatriot (Petit) was a defender converted to midfield. So, we added a whole lot of physicality with that flair and athleticism and we’ve created what I call a hybrid—Patrick Vieira, who just happens to be the most phenomenal midfield player I’ve ever seen. Wenger didn’t grow that by himself; it took a blend.
I didn’t grow up with a big brother but those who did, if you think back to your childhood, who did you really learn the most from; your father or your big brother? If you’re honest, you’ll probably say big bro. Even if you didn’t like him and even if it wasn’t deliberate, he probably taught you most of what you learned in your young life. You probably didn’t care to learn many of those lessons. As a professional I learn more from my peers, and sometimes even my subordinates, than I’ve ever learned from my boss.
What Wenger has done is indeed revolutionary. But I don’t believe Vieira would be the Vieira he became without the influence of Petit and Adams. I don’t believe Henry, Anelka, and Fabregas would be the same without the influence of Bergkamp. With taking such a bold youthful approach, Wenger’s changed the recepie a bit. He’s tried to use all the same ingredients and even the same pot but when he tastes his soup, he realizes he’s used sugar instead of salt. It just doesn’t taste right. Those old heads that mentored the young guns were that salt. These young guns, while having potential like Vieira and Fabregas did, don’t have that same salt that Vieira and Fabregas had.
I remember reading an article where Henry described Tony Adams preparing for a match to watching a warrior prepare to go into a great battle. It was an image that stuck with him and he appreciated one of his big brothers. van Persie also had an article describing how Vieira nearly ripped Ljunberg’s head off during a training session for playing too much for himself and not for the team. He marveled that Paddy was that intense in a training session. These sort of characters set the ground work that made Arsenal great. Where are the mentors now? Where are the big brothers?
August 25th, 2008 at 2:08 pm
Gallas, ho, ho, ho ,ho. Seriously from a leadership perspective we have a vacuum that Gallas is incapable of filling despite his mea culpa.
August 26th, 2008 at 1:07 am
Josh you are making perfect sense, you are correct there is and was a lot for players to gain from a good mentor and it is all part of a good learning and development process. I may just simply underestimate the impact of that process, rightly or wrongly.
I don’t think Vieira was not good enough for Milan, rather that he was down in the pecking order, Vieira as always had more than “African” athleticism, just Milan did not give him the chance to display it. Arsene took the chance on this young lad and if you remember he made an instant impact on the side even before Petit arrived people were already talking about how good he was. When Petit left Vieira still shone but Petit looked quite ordinary playing for Barce and Chelsea.
No doubt though, Josh, Vieira would have learnt from his fellow professionals and become a better player as they did from him. I remember watching an interview by Lee Dixon and I think Keown talking about how they learnt from the professionalism of the French players. He talked about Vieiras attitude to training and social events and how that impacted on their own practice.
I f you look at players like Lionel Messi nobody could mentor the skills he has in the reserve team that he played for. He had to make an impact to be good enough to train alongside the first team and prospective mentors within it. A level of greatness may have to be resident for good mentorship to have an impact
I suppose my point is, raw talent, hard work and good coaching of course can make the need for a mentor non essential but I agree with you highly beneficial to the right character.
August 25th, 2008 at 1:18 pm
Kiwi, we’ve been on the same wavelength all weekend.
August 25th, 2008 at 3:55 pm
“Good to be on the fun side of the island”
quote: Marty - Madagascar
August 25th, 2008 at 4:50 pm
Testing
August 25th, 2008 at 4:53 pm
I hope Senderos goes well.
I always had high hopes for Senderos, and would still be hugely gratified if he ‘came good’ in a big way. He’s still young and CBs mature slower so let’s see how he progresses.
But the reality is that everyone has a ‘limited window’ to achieve at a club - once that window starts to shut it can be best for the player to move on. How ironic that in the off-season Wenger presented him with the no.6 shirt Gallas snuck in the back-door of the Ashley Cole transfer on the last day and Senderos world changed immensely. I’m guessing the Toure/Senderos p’ship was the way forward until the Gallas option popped up. You have to wonder whether we would have fared any worse defensively with Toure/Senderos - they certainly have always looked a more complimentary p’ship.
Another example, if we need it, of how young players are a vexing proposition. Even astute talent-spotters like Wenger and his scouting team have a relatively low ‘hit rate’. Also consider, that the 18 year old Senderos was integrated far more gently in the successful world of Arsenal Mk II than this current batch.
August 25th, 2008 at 4:59 pm
I was five minutes out. Armand Traore ‘faded’ out of action after fifty-minutes instead of sixty.
Traore will spend the next six months picking splinters out his arse. Guaranteed.
August 25th, 2008 at 5:16 pm
Actually you were 10 minutes out
60-50=10
August 25th, 2008 at 5:24 pm
He got subbed after 55 minutes! Five minutes out, not ten minutes! I stand corrected. In my favour
August 25th, 2008 at 5:30 pm
tic tic tic…..the transfer window winds down
The diminishing group of believers fondle their beads and chant “Arsene knows”. Problem is this is the same Arsene of last year and the year before. He does his increasingly limited targeted signing at the start of the off-season and looks for bargains at closing-day.
So what closing-day gift can the hopeful expect?
A dirty great big Vidic-like ’stopper’?
A ready-made CM option like Alonso or Barry?
If your honest, not likely is it?
My best hope is for Wenger to have a mad moment and relent…..to spend big but not the area WE want but the area HE traditionally spends on - in attack. Howsabout a Berbatov - that’s right - a signing that kills 3 birds with 1 stone. We get a creative forward that can actualy make the pitch and create and score goals, meanwhile we poke both ManU and Spurs in the eye. Beautiful.
Ok it costs us 25m but who cares - we spend that cummulatively on unproductive long-term drivel like Walcott & Ramsey.
Go on Wenger, have a splash…….just this once. Stick Song in DM, get by with the CBs we’ve got but for crying out loud give the team something to get excited about. If 25m is a problem offer them RvP + 10m.
August 25th, 2008 at 5:41 pm
Berbatov. Wanted him for ages. Perfect for us. The spuds would never sell to us though.
August 25th, 2008 at 5:44 pm
Although with him stinking out the dressing room, his value dropping, and ManU the other option they might think about it.
Throw in RvP as a sweetner.
August 25th, 2008 at 6:01 pm
You know Kiwi, I even thought of Berbatov this morning as well, but then I reasoned that Spurs would rather bench him for a year than sell him to Arsenal. Heck, they would give him on a discount to ManU rather than at full price to Arsenal.
But then I thought maybe David Villa would come to Arsenal. Why? because I too figured that if there was a signing in the next week, it might not be a player whose name Arsenal have been linked to recently such as Alonso or Barry.
August 25th, 2008 at 7:10 pm
Thought about Berba from last year but it’s not going to happen.
August 25th, 2008 at 5:50 pm
Sigh, the squad just keeps getting thinner. Make no mistake, I’m not a huge Senderos fan, but what exactly does loaning him out do for the team? There are always injuries later in the year and now there is one less person to rely on since it’s pretty obvious that Wenger isn’t going to bring anyone in. Senderos is actually a perfect squad player. He doesn’t complain, plays when asked, and if he’s not counted on for the long term, he always looks pretty good for a couple games before he f*&ks up.
This is shaping up to be a long season. How can a team dominate the majority of possession and STILL get run over in midfield? Particularly by the likes of Fulham. Good lord, it’s going to be lambs to the slaughter when they face Man U or Chelsea.
August 25th, 2008 at 7:08 pm
My point exactly, with Senderos out our “quality” bench gets thinner and Song is once more stuck at CB instead of being played at DM where he has starred internationally
WTF
OUT:
Gilberto Transfer
Hleib Transfer
Diarra Transfer
Flamini Free
Lehman Free
Senderos Loan
Traore Loan
Merida Loan
Barazite Loan
Gilbert Loan
IN
Nasri Transfer
Coquelin Transfer Injured
Bischoff Free Injured
Vela Off Loan
Ramsey Transfer
Silvestre Transfer
LONG TERM INJURIES
Rosicky
Eduardo
If our squad was admittedly thin last year what is it now?
August 25th, 2008 at 7:22 pm
poo?
But thank goodness we have our values
August 25th, 2008 at 7:28 pm
Don’t ya luv quotes…..
“I spoke to Tony Adams at the game and I said to him ‘Where is the leadership coming from in this team?’ It’s certainly not coming from William Gallas the captain.”
Quote: Lee Dixon (after Fulham game)
August 25th, 2008 at 9:39 pm
We are already very thin, so we loan out another defender.
Senderos was certainly not the reason we didn’t win last year… thats for sure.
Berbatov?
What the feck would we want with 25 million GBP striker, when the midfield is so thin that Fulham beats us.
Surely, you jest.
If we don’t have money to spend on NEEDS, why spend it on a striker, when we have the wonderful Adebayor and the rugged RVP… with young Bendtner off the bench?
Surely, thats madness.
If we are spending 20 million, it needs to be either BARRY, or 2 midfielders we’ve never heard of !!!!!!
Fulham played us like we were just another team.
Fact is, we were. Anyone could have beaten us.
We were shite.
2 matches in the league against WBA and Fulham, and we have 1 goal.
But I still would say its NOT a striker we need, but some midfield service to the strikers… or how about a presence in midfield at fecking all.
August 26th, 2008 at 1:14 am
So true Stag. £25 mill on a striker would be ridiculous. A mad dog in the CM is what we need. I don’t think Barry is the answer though.
August 26th, 2008 at 1:51 am
I disagree. 25m spent on Berbatov would be genius.
Plugging the midfield hole won’t inspire this team. Belief is ozzing out of the squad and the support base. Flamini and Hleb left and Adebayor’s head was turned because they became doubters not believers. Sometimes you need to make a strategic signing - have we lost that ability? The vision is Arsenal - super club. Not Wenger’s youth academy.
August 26th, 2008 at 8:58 am
Genius?
Yes. Surely the Totts want to sell us Berbatov?
We don’t need a midfielder… right? Let’s get a couple of strikers!
Nobody can get them the ball in a scoring position, but they’ll be pretty.
August 25th, 2008 at 11:13 pm
..and United has all of 2 goals so far.
Hopefully this serves as the wake up that Ade is talking about… and that includes AW doing the right thing up and signing a quality veteran DM. I don’t care if it’s Barry or Alonso. Either would be fine. teamed with a healthy Cesc and Nasri, all of a sudden things look a lot brighter. But even even if it’s only getting Cesc back, we’d look a lot brighter than we have.
Still haven’t seen Vela yet, and I would like to see Song play a full 90, or at least a majority of it.
This loss was disgusting, but it’s early. United and Chelsea will slip up at some point too. I’m irritated, but I’m not panicking. No, Fulham isn’t a top flight squad, but they are better than some in the EPL… and meanwhile, Tottenham (that’s the big spending Tottenham) are 0-2 with the latest coming against the mighty, mighty Black Cats.
August 25th, 2008 at 11:46 pm
Didnt Wenger promise on Arsenal.com he would bring in a midfielder before the Twente return leg?
Another pointless and empty promise.
August 26th, 2008 at 3:00 am
For the sake of argument, he still has 36 hours to be called a fibber… doesn’t mean the transfer will play, but he could bring someone to the Emirates that quick — look how fast the Silvestre swoop materialized.
August 26th, 2008 at 1:26 am
Wenger’s talk is meaningless…..and intentionally so. Like a politicians, designed to sound convincing but without any informative value.
On signings? His past and recent actions tell you all you need to know.
In the early stages of the off-season he pursued and secured a 21 and 17 year old (Nasri & Ramsey). They were his priority.
LDE had himself in hesterics at the thought of Bischoff signing…..wonder of wonders he signed!! Recovered yet LDE? How are the those pills your fond of?
Silvestre from ManU is a half decent signing - if only he didn’t bring a reputation for injury and calamity. Anyway, given the shape of our squad we’ll take him.
August 26th, 2008 at 1:59 am
Come on now Kiwi, he also brought in Bischoff’s soul mate in 18 year old Coquelin so both of them could recover from mysterious injuries together.
August 26th, 2008 at 2:17 am
Ironically Coquelin showed a bit of the spirit we need - is he injured too?
I’m just so over Wenger’s obsessive collectors disorder with youth. I like the concept as part of a wider acquisition strategy but why do we need to be so manically puritanical? Has he forgotten that all his success had Bergkamp’s stamp on it? And he was bought at 26 - lock stock and barrel.
August 26th, 2008 at 3:18 am
That was a different era and if you look how fast the money is spiraling out of control, yeah Bergkamp did a lot for the club, but where are you going to find a player of that caliber today? Without breaking the bank?
We may not have what United, Chelsea and Liverpool have right now, but wait until the debt for those three becomes too much to shoulder. Meanwhile, the financial upside of the move out of Highbury will eventually pay dividends.
I grew up rooting for a whole slew of teams that always manage to disappoint… The Browns and Indians being the main culprits… so I’ve got plenty of patience… and anyway, it’s only been a few years since Arsenal have won. My other teams (save the Buckeyes) have never won in my lifetime.
Again though, the season is two weeks old. Meanwhile, what’s the point in trying to guess at what the manager is going to do? Not one of us could do as well, or comparably close.
August 26th, 2008 at 3:31 am
“Again though, the season is two weeks old. Meanwhile, what’s the point in trying to guess at what the manager is going to do? Not one of us could do as well, or comparably close.”
Wrong. Professional football only survives because fans care enough to discuss it.
August 26th, 2008 at 11:39 am
No, it survives because fans watch it and spend ridiculous sums of money on it. No one cares what er have to say about it.
Never make the mistake of giving us any credit beyond that. There were professional sports before there were everyday critics like ourselves.
August 26th, 2008 at 6:04 am
need a bit of reassurance…..
“The first lesson is you don’t necessarily do everything the fans want you to do,” Hill-Wood said “We are very nearly there, but not quite. I think we are quite happy - we are not going to buy somebody who doesn’t improve the squad.”
hmm…… sounds like Wenger’s using ‘the force’ on Hill-Wood. Maybe he can sign Darth Vadar to be arthur3sheds ‘mad dog’ in midfield.
I’m hoping I wake up and the last 3 months have just been a bad dream. Flam (the new captain) and Hleb run out on the field alongside Fab. RvP and Gallas have gone to Spurs in a straight swap for Berbatov and Arsenal even threw in Robin’s favourite treatment table in a gesture of goodwill and reconciliation. Nasri is in Rosicky’s spot…….then someone spoils it all with some babble about values and acquiring signing rights to a feutus.
August 26th, 2008 at 3:36 pm
Oh Kiwi I hate to hear you sound like this… You are starting to sound like Fred or Stag, ultra cynical.
I can tell you feel a lot for this club and the direction it appears to be heading is depressing the hell out of you, for want of a better phrase. I understand where you’re coming from and the future does not look bright for the Arse now. It appears Arsene has not made good use of the transfer window of opportunity. But I hope despite all the doom and gloom that is justifiably evident that you may reserve judgment on Arsene and his youthful experiment until at least a few more games into the season. We have only played three games!
August 26th, 2008 at 8:54 am
I guess all this means that we have finally reached the pivotal moment in Wenger’s reign!
Personally, I wouldn’t bother with Berbatov, I’d sign Villa from under the nose of Real and Alonso from Liverpool. Two new amigos for Fabregas, two new mentors for the young ‘uns, a step up in quality at training, resale value in 2 years time when they are at their 28 year old peak and all this for £60m!
For me Alonso is the must signing, he can take some creative pressure off Fabregas and will certainly help with our possession based game (as long as Walcott is not playing). We always need to dominate midfield to play and Xabi can help with that, albeit in a different dynamic to Flamini.
Do we really need a player like Villa? Of course we would never sign him, but the benefits would be myriad. It’d take pressure of Eduardo and his comeback, means he can spend some time sharpening himself in the reserves. It’d keep Fabregas highly motivated to stay at Arsenal. It’d give us a proper dead ball specialist. It’d give us another immensely hard working forward (like the old Ade!), but one with a real opportunistic streak. It’d give us some more ‘technique’ up top, Villa can pass and dribble well, taking some pressure of Nasri/fit Rosicky. Clearly we do have some forwards already, but RVP, undoubrtedly a great player, can move to the right of midfield and cut in to devestating effect - in my mind I’d rather see him there than Theo, at least RVP can create and not just run. Bendtner is very good prospect and a great option off the bench when we want to be a bit more physical. Eduardo is injured. Walcott needs the team to set up like Liverpool circa Michael Owen to show us what he can be good at.
Sometimes you’ve got to speculate to accumulate.
Being scottish, I often find myself agreeing with Wenger’s frugality but even Arsene must see the opportunity cost of some decisions…not buying Woodgate or Anelka last January springs to mind.
Naturally, I’m being reactionary and hysterical but the whole club would be improved with those two players.
August 26th, 2008 at 9:48 am
The Berbatov talk is nuts! Where does that come from?
I remember Berbatov being good upfront but lacking proper support from midfield.
We dont have a midfield and we want to bag a 30 million striker when we have five strikers already? Incredible logic.
You can win a league or the CL without an attack … you have very low chances without a good defence. But there is ZERO chance without a midfield.
Our strikeforce is already by far our strongest suit.
August 26th, 2008 at 9:58 am
BBC Sport understands that Arsenal are on the verge of signining…….no one.
August 26th, 2008 at 10:51 am
I am the biggest Wenger supporter you will ever find, but even I am starting question his transfer dealings. To show you how bad things have become, I was literally begging for Gilberto to come on the pitch on Saturday.
I know Senderos made some mistakes, but so has Gallas and I would’ve much rather seen Gallas go. WG is really hurting this team right now. He is not good enough in the center of defense, and he inspires nothing and no one as captain. Say what you will about Senderos, but there is no question that he was passionate about the Club and close with his teammates.
Hopefully, I am totally off base and Wenger has some master plan he’s been confusingly putting into effect. But he better hurry time’s running out.
August 26th, 2008 at 1:03 pm
I’ll agree with Harry @ Pompey.
Its a 2 team race already, with United and Chelsea far ahead of everyone else.
United have serious injuries, but they have depth good enough to win.
(though someone on here thinks our depth is better than theirs?!)
We have it all to do, to stay in the top 4.
If we don’t bring someone in before the window closes, we will have days like Saturday … throughout the season. We will lose road games to teams we probably should beat. We just aren’t good or strong enough.
The jig is up Arsene’… its a bridge too far with the kids and no depth.
August 26th, 2008 at 1:27 pm
When a manager starts listening to fans, that’s WHEN he starts losing the plot.
Panic signing is the WORST form of signing. As it means the manager starts “panic”. Fans panic. A good leader NEVER panic. If he does, he’s just as “intelligent” as fans.
Like a ship bumps into a storm, the skipper immediately yells “let’s jump!”. Yet in the end, the ship didn’t sink. The sailors did.
Funny so many of folks here seem to know a lot of stuffs our “manager” doesn’t, voicing out their opinion with such an authority. With fans as intelligent and as knowledgable like that, who needs manager?
August 26th, 2008 at 1:42 pm
Yes, because repeating “Arsene knows” over and over again shows great intelligence.
A few of us on here were of the opinion for the last couple of years that Senderos would look better in another shirt. Looks like Arsene finally agrees with that one, at least.
Anyway, this is a football message board. Opinions are what it’s all about. And not just those that parrot the Managers.
August 26th, 2008 at 2:08 pm
Andez, get your head out of the sand for a minute … I dare you to tell me that our team is not weak and in need of one or two players. Tell me that!
I am interested in finding out if you just have a strong pride in being pro-Wenger.
August 26th, 2008 at 2:10 pm
ps: Andez, by your logic, the likes of Martin Jol and even Steve McClaren and all those long-ball merchants in the lower divisions should NEVER be critized by fans because the fact is ALL managers know more than fans - since they have taken years of courses and have years of on-the-job experience.
No manager should be critized then!
You see how foolish that logic is?
August 26th, 2008 at 4:07 pm
When all is said and done Andez has a point. A panic buy is not going to be the answer is it.
It may well turn out that Arsene should have sought the quality replacement earlier or he simply cannot find the right man. This may become a mistake we have to live with until Arsene has the opportunity to remedy it. Arsene is an economist by education and this is a side of him that will always have significant impact on our transfer dealings.
Arsene may even stubbornly choose to stick to his moral “social responsibility”
and stick by the youth he has chosen to be part of the “youth project”, which may be doomed to failure.
Regardless I will rather be with him than without him.
August 26th, 2008 at 5:12 pm
Not to ‘panic’ buy is a point, indeed. A tremendously obvious one, but a point nevertheless. Of course, he was the first person to suggest a ‘panic’ buy, so good job bringing it up and shooting it down in the same post.
However, a ‘panic’ buy isn’t what some of us have been been asking for allllllllllllllllllll summer long. Thoughtful attention to what Arsenal has clearly been missing since last Spring (at least) would have done nicely.
“Arsene is an economist by education and this is a side of him that will always have significant impact on our transfer dealings.”
Man, talk about assuming facts not in evidence. So perhaps the housing crunch is why we haven’t bought a CM? Silly.
Finally, you acknowledge AW’s plan “may be doomed to failure”, but would rather be with him than without him?
It’s that kind of ‘thinking’ that got George W. Bush reelected.
August 27th, 2008 at 1:24 am
It is such an obvious point that I would expect you to be able to understand that to negotiate to buy AFTER a couple of bad performances just before the transfer window = a panic buy. Andez is not talking about “allllll summer long”.
Ironically it is also quite obvious that Arsene needed to replace Flamini all summer, but being an Economics graduate he is extremely shrewd with his spending, and the fiscal viability of his transactions have always been evident in his approach to transfers. Much more so than the average football manager. Believe it or not it that is evident.
It is the same economist spirit and probably a touch of pride why Wenger does not really want to spend a decent price to replace Flamini. If he pays £10 mill plus he would have saved more money giving in to Flamini’s wage demands, also he would have to keep his fingers that the player would bed in straight away not three seasons as Flamini.
The FACT is he is an Economics graduate and only proud fool or someone just as ignorant would assume that what he has spent time learning for over three years will have no impact on a role that has some much fiscal responsibility attached. What has the housing crunch got to do with it, DAH.
“Finally” if you stop taking things out of context you might understand, the youth project as it stands MAY be doomed to failure not the football club. He may have to tweak or possibly, if he has the choice disband the “youth project” but that doesn’t mean that he will rob the club of success.
Being an Arsenal fan since I was born in the 70s I would rather be with him than without him. I begrudgingly rememeber the days of Terry Neill and to some extent George Graham well. I have no faith hat we can find a manager that can do a better job than the great one, especially as the truth is we do not have the cash to compete with even the likes of Man City without pushing ourselves towards a overwhelming debt.
No disrespect to women but you seem to have a feline propensity to over-dramatize, I don’t want to come across aggressive in my replys but you just get under my skin dude!
As for Georgie Bush, you people voted him in, so you make your bed you must lie in it
August 26th, 2008 at 3:36 pm
You dont post for 2 days and there is a huge series of posts which are very remotely on topic of the thread.
@JoshD: Yep very much. Wenger gets the credit. Wenger gets the knives. Theres 1000 people working backstage. But thats just how it is. The busck starts and stops with the manager. As for Paddy Viera , I probably saw him a bit late when I started in 2002 so I didnt see “teh greatest” player ever in him. A great player no doubt and an engine room but Bergkamp was the MAN for me. Nothing to discredit Paddy at all though. A legend.
@Mazza: You busted nothing. I will say that same quote again in January again because you and all the people here , me included have not done anything in professional football. All you do is read quotes from the papers apply your intelligence at whatever level it might be wrt football and analyze something as best as you can. It is very easy to sit on your couch typing things like Wenger is an idiot or Wenger out. What do you lose anyway? ..Nothing. So you can comment …thats all you can do anyway. Hence that quote holds such great significance … read it again.
@Kiwi: So I got Bischoff wrong? Made a light joke about pills? Its a nice time to throw it back..isn’t it? Sad.
@Fred: It is not about a manager being criticized or not tbf. It is the way in which the statements come out. No one has any idea about what all pressures a manager is under or the CEO of a company is under. All you can think of is ..”Damn…my salary rose by just 5% again”. We made so much profit last year. Where did all that money go? That CEO is crap.See how stupid that sounds?
Secondly no - My views are not set in stone at all. I think we need a dominant central midfielder or somehow make Diaby injury free, we can sell Eboue for whatever we get and AW should have kept Senderos and sold Gallas instead; on hindsight he should never have got Gallas. Obviously this will be shot down by statements like..head in the sand, how stupid you are etc. I don’t always agree with AW - I disagree with a lot of things he says and does starting with the “I didnt see it”. BUT - anyone who is above you and has achieved much more than you deserves your respect , not insults. Get to his level and then talk the talk. You say you’re an engineer right? So tomorrow if your boss takes a decision which you think is crap and is stupid…what do you do? You can advise him, tell him what he is doing is wrong etc. What if he decides to go ahead and asks you to trust him and he has a reason? You have a choice:
1.Trust him and give your best
2. Do the exact same thing your way and show why it is better
And that is when you are full time on the job..like Pat Rice or Boro Primorac. If they say what you’re saying ..it probably makes sense. Otherwise yes…you may be right but thats it. You do not have all the facts — hence you cannot comment with 100% accuracy.
But I agree — A CM wud be very nice at this time.
August 26th, 2008 at 4:15 pm
A CM wont be nice … a solid, competent CM is absolutely, utterly and desperately necessary.
You keep on saying “we” dont have the facts … what facts exactly?
Again, am sure the Spurs fans didnt have the facts at hand with Martin Jol.
When you see a product that is a deficient in some way, you do NOT need to be a “specialist” to say yes, there is a fault.
Fact: There is a weakness in midfield. If you dispute that I will stop arguing with you.
We can solve the weakness internally or by bringing in some help. The season is very long and Diaby and Rosicky cant be counted upon to play even half of the matches this next season. Ramsey and Wilshere dont have the trust of Wenger - showing their place in the scheme of things.
So what other facts do you need to know to conclude that we absolutely NEED to get a CM in?? Wilshere and Ramsey suddenly becoming supermen and saving us when the games start coming fast. Or Diaby and Rosicky staying fit to save us? lol. Or the Eboue/Denilson wonder combo that got overwhelmed by the mighty WBA and Fulham? Or do you expect a flogged to death and probably over-tackled Fabregas to drag us through the end of the season? Is that fair on the poor lad?
I would like to hear what facts that we dont already possess to make a reasonable judgement on the need to boost the number of competent CMs we have.
August 26th, 2008 at 4:49 pm
The facts we do have at hand I had posted previously and will repeat once more.
Injuries: Rosicky, Eduardo, Bischoff, Diaby, Coquelin
in need of Rest: Wilshire, Ramsey
Coming off Injury: Toure, Nasri, Cesc
Replacements: No replacements for Flamini and Gilberto
Swap: Silvestre in Senderos out
Dependencies: Diaby to play DM in the EPL after playing only one pre-season game in that position.
Opinion: Neither Ramsey, Coquelin or Bischoff is a short term replacement for Gilberto, Diarra or Flamini.
Fact: Arsene said his squad was too thin last season to deal with injuries and that was the reason we lost the EPL and CL.
Fact: Squad is thinner this season when we look at incoming and outgoing.
Opinion: If we don’t strengthen our squad very quickly, pray that all key players remain healthy and play people in their proven positions we are going to have a long season.
August 26th, 2008 at 5:59 pm
Pretty much sums it up nicely.
August 26th, 2008 at 4:21 pm
Nice article on Tony Adams
http://sport.setanta.com/en/Sport/News/Football/2008/08/26/Premier-League-Adams-on-Gallas/
Tony basically says Arsene needs a few more experienced players who are proven winners in order to regain their trophy form.
August 26th, 2008 at 6:01 pm
OK. Tony is an Arsenal legend, but once he says bad things about the current situation, most of the Red Colored Glasses Brigade are going to come out and call Tony an idiot, and why doesn’t he shut his mouth, etc.
His comments are pretty much spot on… in my opinion, the same opinion I’ve stated for about 2 years. But HE is Tony Adams. Knows a lot more about football than I ever will.
Maybe… someone… will listen to him?
Nah.
He’s mistaken too.
We’re gonna win the league.
August 27th, 2008 at 1:32 am
Truth is a much as I love Tony as a player, he will be a shit manager, he has already proved that at Wycombe. Trust Tony to say the obvious.
Tony’s communication skills are poor I cannot see how he could motivate our players or give out coherent tactical instructions, sometimes I wonder how he even led on the pitch.
Truth is Tony Adams is a washed up drunk, “an idiot, why doesn’t he shut his mouth”
August 26th, 2008 at 5:33 pm
Arthur3sheds, don’t worry! I’m upbeat…….just not about Arsenal!!
Your right I’ve loved this club since I was a kid and nothing would please me more than to see Wenger rediscover his midas touch. Forgive my bouts of sarcasim - it’s a coping strategy!! I’m one of those who in sport find it sane and normal to see and express the good and the bad (why else have forums?). So I can both revere the excellence with which Wenger has led the transformation of our club and yet still offer a fans frank assessment on how we’re travelling.
Peter Hill-Woods a great ole fella, but his comment re ignoring fans was ill advised. It’s like a politician saying voters should be ignored……may have credence, but you never say it (unless your retired and write a book).